/retro/ - MOVED TO TRASHCHAN.XYZ/retro/

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WE'VE MOVED TO https://trashchan.xyz/retro/


Modern /retro/ material that actually does it right Fellow Time Traveler 08/06/2020 (Thu) 18:36:27 No.768
Let's have a new thread without a tonne of broken images. Have there been any new forms of /retro/ media (could be movies, games, anime, websites, etc.) that wanted to look old and actually succeeded? There's an artist called BlueTheBone who makes "retro"-styled animations, cheesecake, and porn. Like any modern hack, he overdoses on visual clutter and uses filters that don't actually resemble the time period he's trying to emulate - but despite that, I think his style is consistently decent. If he relied less on computers and filters, then I think he'd be a much better artist, but that goes without saying for most contemporary artists. The really weird things happen when he tries to make modern character designs and media look old, like pic 2. It isn't exactly wrong, but there is something perplexing about viewing characters and series that were developed specifically with modern aesthetics in mind.
Check out this Japanese guy's channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcegcJA0ijqaZUUyvGtr5xQ He makes low-poly CGI animations using blender, records the output to VHS tape, and then uses some kind of capture card to bring it back to the digital realm.
>>768 Very few artists have managed to accurately capture the /retro/ look, and that's because they try too hard. It's always a small detail or two that stick out and scream "modern" at my face. Like I see a lot of images nowadays with a very heavy VHS effect applied, and fake scanlines with OSD on top, it's just not convincing at all. Let's take the first pic for example; a VHS frame from an anime produced in the 80s or the 90s by the latest. I can see multiple issues here: >resolution and quality This is a 720p+ image with fine details. It should be 480p at most with muddied details. The second pic is slightly better in this regard. >color contrast The contrast between colors is too low and the whole image has a pastel overlay. If anything screams "2010s" it's pastel colors. When VHS washes out colors they do appear desaturated, but the differences between them are still obvious, like a painting with bright saturated colors that are clearly different, but having gathered some dust on top. See first pic related. >visible pixels The VCR OSD looks extremely fake (i.e. play, vcr tape...etc) like you know this was lazily taped-on heh with an editor. Normally OSD doesn't look pixelated, instead it gets blurred like literally everything else on tape and ends up with a smooth look. If you can see pixels on VHS you're doing it wrong, see second pic related. >OSD Who puts OSD on a VHS frame anyway? When people started uploading digitized VHS frames to the internet in the 90s, none of them included OSD. What kind of rookie would include it? Overall it would have been much easier, and much more convincing, to just take a regular picture with bright colors, record it on VHS, then digitize it back. Like what this guy did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oJs8-I9WtA ... The end result has a subtle, but very convincing VHS effect. And that's coming from an original footage that was shot at 4K! Keep it simple, stupid. Also if you really want that "I took the tape out of the dog's mouth" effect, just record your tape on another tape, and see if the second tape has degraded enough for your tastes. If not, record that second tape on another tape then check again. Here's a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8GOcB6H0uQ >>769 Pretty cool. This guy is much more convincing because he uses a real VHS rather than a digital filter, but he fell into some pitfalls in regards to the 3D render. I'm not an expert by any means on 3D but I can pick up on a few errors, such as... >polygon count Notice how the head of the girl in the first vid is less complex than her hands? Now notice how the scene around her is even more complex? That's an inconsistency that sticks out. You either go low poly for everything equally without any textures or reflections, or you go high poly but keep the shapes basic without too much detail. Vid related is probably what 空想料理店 蟹 was trying to do; an early-mid 80s 3D render with low polygons all around. >smooth animation In the 80s and even part of the 90s doing 30 FPS or higher in 3D was very expensive. Artists would stick to the "cinematic" 24 FPS if they could afford it, if not they would only go lower, again like in vid related. >??? I can't put my finger on this one, but almost every Blender render looks modern. I don't know if it's shaders or just the renderer itself but it always has that very unique Blender look that feels modern. I'm a firm believer that anyone who wants to make "old" content should only use the tools that were available at the time... Wanna make an old comic? Use real ink on paper rather than a drawing tablet. Wanna make 80s music? Use a real synthesizer/keyboard and record on tape rather than a DAW. Wanna create vintage CGI? Use the original 3D Studio or Infini-D rather than Blender. Sorry for the wall of autism, I'll be posting some actual contributions shortly.
First up we have Jack Stauber, famous for the 'Two Time' song which you've probably stumbled upon by now. Not only does he emulate 80s visual styles on an authentic worn out VHS, he also emulates 80s synthpop very accurately, which is something I can't recall anyone doing since the 2000s. It would be even more impressive if this was done digitally, because it's just too convincing to suggest so. The modernism lies in the subject matter of his videos, which is usually kept unclear and a bit too surreal on purpose. He also sports the Blender look I talked about in the previous post when he does 3D, which you can see in the video 'view'.
Next up we have SkyCorp Home Video™, a youtube channel that makes authentic-looking VHS logos and segments purely for comedic effect, often parodying 80s and 90s cheese. For the most part they get the 3D right, and the subtle VHS effect works perfectly.
Our last feature for today: North Korean pop songs! With NK citizens completely shut off from the outside world since the 70s (?) their lives have been pretty much frozen in time, creating unintentional /retro/. Their music is ABBA-esque, and although their fashion sense and recording technology may be from a decade or two into The Future™, they're still very 20th century. This would be cool if NK wasn't ruled by a complete maniac. Next time someone asks you about K-pop, show him Moranbong Band! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOH41w7M2tU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCQ3iJLuw8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVsaOYZl3E0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQx6HIcVxFg
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>>771 >I can't put my finger on this one, but almost every Blender render looks modern. I don't know if it's shaders or just the renderer itself but it always has that very unique Blender look that feels modern. I think there was a way to make POVRay renderings in Blender, but from what I remember that option hasn't work since Blender 2.8 came out. I'd love to get into vintage-style 3D rendering at some point, so it's too bad that there aren't more easy modern ways to get that look right off the bat. >I'm a firm believer that anyone who wants to make "old" content should only use the tools that were available at the time... Wanna make an old comic? Use real ink on paper rather than a drawing tablet. Wanna make 80s music? Use a real synthesizer/keyboard and record on tape rather than a DAW. Wanna create vintage CGI? Use the original 3D Studio or Infini-D rather than Blender. I agree. It seems like people just want to take the easy way out without putting actual work in. It's one thing if you're just taking certain aspects of past aesthetics, but if you intend to go all the way you shouldn't half-ass it by merely adopting superficial similarities with the old styles. It's too bad a lot of the old ways of the doing things are becoming harder to practice since they're no longer the norm. Film photography has become a niche interest. Bland tablet-drawn art has replaced hand-drawn art for most uses. Clinical digital recordings are the norm for music now. When the new ways have become so convenient and efficient, it's going to take some real discipline and determination to use the old methods when things have become comparatively easy.
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>>776 >I'd love to get into vintage-style 3D rendering at some point, so it's too bad that there aren't more easy modern ways to get that look right off the bat. I'm interested in vintage 3D too, there are modern programs that can make it with relative ease though. I've stumbled upon a few while surfing the interwebs, there must be more out there of course but the following list should be a good starting point... >Anim8or Freeware, first released 1999 and still actively developed today. A modeler, renderer, and --you guessed it-- animator. Easy to get into but does things differently than most other programs. Pic 1 is a sample render. >Art of Illusion FOSS, first released 2000 and still actively developed today. Pretty much the same as Anim8or. Pic 2 is a sample render. >POV-Ray You already know about this one. Since it's only a renderer, you'll have to model your scene elsewhere (Anim8or + ani2pov should work) and then import it for rendering. Pic 3 is a sample render. >3D Studio MAX [1.0 - 3.1] Windows edition of the popular 3D Studio for DOS, the versions in brackets were released between 1996 and 1999. Much easier to use than its DOS counterpart and runs just fine on Windows 7. The best version according to my limited testing is 2.5. >Bryce [2.0 - 5.5] The program used to make the picture in your post (hiresdome). The versions in brackets were released between 1996 and 2005, 5.5 was released for free some years ago so you can find it easily. Not really a modeler since it's focused almost exclusively on terrain generation, but can render and perform basic animations. However unlike the previously mentioned programs whose renders look pretty much identical, Bryce has a very unique render style that can be spotted from a mile away.
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>>778 >I'm interested in vintage 3D too, there are modern programs that can make it with relative ease though. I've stumbled upon a few while surfing the interwebs, there must be more out there of course but the following list should be a good starting point... How easy are they to learn for a complete newcomer though? >Windows edition of the popular 3D Studio for DOS, the versions in brackets were released between 1996 and 1999. Much easier to use than its DOS counterpart and runs just fine on Windows 7. The best version according to my limited testing is 2.5. I have the DOS version but never tried it, so that's good to know. Thanks for all the info. I'll have to save it somewhere. I'm more into tinkering with music than with visual art forms, but at some point I'd like to experiment with cheesy '90s-style ROMpler music and old-school CG artwork would fit that like a glove should I ever decide to release anything.
>>779 >How easy are they to learn for a complete newcomer though? Quite easy, as long as you have basic knowledge of the 3-axis system (x/y/z). The manual/documentation is very straightforward from what I've seen, and you'll find online tutorials for pretty much everything... There aren't that many tools in each program to wrap your head around, it's just that there's a lot of donkey work to be done using these tools, especially when modelling. For example it's easy to drop a sphere into the window and edit its points, but it will take some considerable time to transform said sphere into a face with features. My advice is start small, learn the basics and familiarize yourself with the program you're using, then render a simple scene. Some people never make it past the modelling stage because they obsess too much over the quality of their first models, don't fall into that trap. Make your models and move on. As you gain experience you can revisit your old scenes and refine their models, but you must have scenes to begin with. >I'm more into tinkering with music than with visual art forms Oh really? How about sharing some of your pieces here, I'd love to check them out.
>>771 >Wanna make 80s music? Use a real synthesizer/keyboard and record on tape rather than a DAW. Are there any modern artists who do this? If there aren't any then I'd like to try making music this way.
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>>780 >Quite easy, as long as you have basic knowledge of the 3-axis system (x/y/z). The manual/documentation is very straightforward from what I've seen, and you'll find online tutorials for pretty much everything... There aren't that many tools in each program to wrap your head around, it's just that there's a lot of donkey work to be done using these tools, especially when modelling. For example it's easy to drop a sphere into the window and edit its points, but it will take some considerable time to transform said sphere into a face with features. My advice is start small, learn the basics and familiarize yourself with the program you're using, then render a simple scene. Some people never make it past the modelling stage because they obsess too much over the quality of their first models, don't fall into that trap. Make your models and move on. As you gain experience you can revisit your old scenes and refine their models, but you must have scenes to begin with. Okay, thanks. >Oh really? How about sharing some of your pieces here, I'd love to check them out. I never really finish anything, but here are some rough snippets and loops I've recorded: https://vocaroo.com/4EaQefY0Zvn https://vocaroo.com/4z9YT4vrH8q https://vocaroo.com/KTMIajqOhXv https://vocaroo.com/2YYp2FPdIOd https://vocaroo.com/1LJRuA9ReHm https://vocaroo.com/hzETMHpSInn Some of these are just MIDI files with reverb slapped on them. The last one was the most recent one I was fleshing out out of these tracks, which is why the transitions sound so rough. A few are basically memewave (including the third one, which I recorded as a test for a synth I bought), but I've been moving away from that style. I've been working on trying to learn to play parts physically rather than sequencing everything and haven't been working on creating any compositions lately, so these are kind of old. >>781 Boards of Canada are famous for preferring to work with hardware and analog instrumentation rather than doing everything in a DAW. Oftentimes they even eschew traditional forms of effects in favor of doing things on their own (in one interview they talked about creating a Leslie effect by putting a microphone in an ice cream bucket). They frequently use warped tape recordings of acoustic instruments that could be mistaken for synthesizers. I don't think you should let the fact that there are other people out there doing it let stop you. I personally plan on going in that direction once I can come up with music that's up to snuff.
>>783 I took a look at Boards of Canada. It isn't exactly 80s music, but they make good stuff nonetheless. >I don't think you should let the fact that there are other people out there doing it let stop you. I just want the music to exist so that I can listen to it. If it isn't out there, then I'll create it myself, both to listen to and to inspire others to make more. I'm curious enough to try my hand at it though. Thinking about this post on Channel4 BBS. Where is he now? Do any of you fill your life with older media? I think I'm getting there, I've never owned a car made after 1999, and use a beige CRT monitor for my PC with a Windows 95 theme. Eventually I'll get a beige computer case and a floppy disk drive. Am I autistic for all of this? Definitely.
>>783 >4EaQefY0Zvn If I didn't know you made this I would have taken it for a real 80s song, very well done. I like this piece the most. >4z9YT4vrH8q Pretty cool, the ending has some Boards of Canada vibes which makes it my favorite part. >2YYp2FPdIOd This one sounds the most "tracker-like", pretty good! The beginning immediately reminded me of a BoC song, I'm not sure which one exactly, probably "Smokes Quantity". >1LJRuA9ReHm Another nice tracker-like piece, a bit repetitive though. >hzETMHpSInn Doesn't sound too rough, maybe it needs some better leveling as some instruments are too quiet but otherwise great work. I think this piece would work better if it went more upbeat around the 0:47 mark rather than getting calmer, or at least going upbeat right after that part, if that makes sense. Overall your work is top notch, I definitely encourage you to complete your pieces and maybe compile an album/EP when you have some tracks done. No shame in sequencing by the way, but of course the more skills you have playing the instruments in real time the better. >>784 >It isn't exactly 80s music, but they make good stuff nonetheless. I don't think they meant to mimic the 80s, in fact most of their samples are from the 70s from what I remember. Their work is more along the lines of re-contextualizing old samples into something completely different with an often darker sound, you would listen to it and it feels equally modern and retro. This is most evident on their album "Geogaddi", which is by far their magnum opus, do check that out. >I just want the music to exist so that I can listen to it. If it isn't out there, then I'll create it myself, both to listen to and to inspire others to make more. I'm curious enough to try my hand at it though. That's a great motive, do try your hand at it and post results! >Thinking about this post on Channel4 BBS I disagree with the stance. Shutting yourself out of the modern world is cynical and counter-productive, not everything modern is bad, and not everything old is good either. It's okay if you're dissatisfied with the state of the world, we all are, but forcing yourself into a bubble will only harm you. The world will move on and you'll be at a disadvantage not being aware of the changes happening. Admittedly I consume a lot of old media, but I take a chance on newer media if it intrigues me, sometimes finding hidden gems. I also take advantage of new tools and technologies to make my life easier when possible... I don't keep up with the news but whenever something major happens I hear about it from the normals in my circle so I'm not completely shut off.
>>784 > Eventually I'll get a beige computer case and a floppy disk drive. nice, a buddy of mine is clearing out some stuff and told me he'd give me some old beige cases. I am building a computer with new hardware but rest assured, at some point in time I will be buying an internal 3.5" FDD adapter so that it will have a working diskette drive. I even found a site selling internal adapters for 5 1/4" floppy drives, so potentially I could have a really nice system with the capability to read and write both 3.5 and 5 1/4" floppy disks. I'll also be throwing in some blu-ray drives just because I have them. I too live in a bubble to some extent, but of course some things, through osmosis, get through the bubble and reach me. I like it this way.
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>>784 >I took a look at Boards of Canada. It isn't exactly 80s music, but they make good stuff nonetheless. Most of their inspiration comes from the hippie era through the early '80s, although focusing specifically on the '70s. >Thinking about this post on Channel4 BBS. Where is he now? Do any of you fill your life with older media? I think I'm getting there, I've never owned a car made after 1999, and use a beige CRT monitor for my PC with a Windows 95 theme. Eventually I'll get a beige computer case and a floppy disk drive. I try to keep most of today's pop culture at arm's length, but I'd never go that far. I try to have the best of both worlds by adopting any positive developments of life today while keeping everything else out. >>785 >If I didn't know you made this I would have taken it for a real 80s song, very well done. I like this piece the most. Thanks. To me it sounds a bit too much like a contemporary pastiche of '80s music, like Starforce or something. I like that synthwave stuff but am also sick of it. I am kind of proud of the way it turned out with the DX7 faux-woodwind part at the end though. >Pretty cool, the ending has some Boards of Canada vibes which makes it my favorite part. That's my favorite part too. The ending was a complete accident I discovered by reversing one of the previous sections and then assigning the part to another instrument. The chords that first show up 38 seconds in were the first part I came up with. I was trying to come up with something that sounded like smooth jazz (that Macintosh Plus track that sampled "Tar Baby" by Sade was the sound I was going for), but instead the main melody ended up sounding more like a blues or Tin Pan Alley song from the '20s or '30s. The acoustic piano sound kind of emphasizes that, although that's just a placeholder for now. >This one sounds the most "tracker-like", pretty good! The beginning immediately reminded me of a BoC song, I'm not sure which one exactly, probably "Smokes Quantity". I actually named the file "Into the Light" because it started off as an imitation of "Open the Light," but I wasn't thinking and probably confused the title with the Siouxsie and the Banshees song. This was another conscious influence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8pDnJBB7Vw Maybe some Dancing Fantasy too. >Another nice tracker-like piece, a bit repetitive though. For sure. The drums and bass parts are just placeholders until I can add some variation. They're just the same loop for each repeated ad nauseam. There isn't much of a main melody line yet either. The bit that you first hear at 29 seconds in was all that I came up with. >Doesn't sound too rough, maybe it needs some better leveling as some instruments are too quiet but otherwise great work. I think this piece would work better if it went more upbeat around the 0:47 mark rather than getting calmer, or at least going upbeat right after that part, if that makes sense. That was part of what I meant when I talked about being "rough." Not only the mellow part that sounds a bit out of place, but also the pretty sudden start about 18 seconds in. I usually start off by working on main chunks and then creating transition between them, but I don't even have all the main sections of that track done yet. >Overall your work is top notch, I definitely encourage you to complete your pieces and maybe compile an album/EP when you have some tracks done. No shame in sequencing by the way, but of course the more skills you have playing the instruments in real time the better. You made the Boards of Canada comparisons, and that's exactly what I plan on sounding like when I'm ready for an actual release (specifically the leaked releases and The Campfire Headphase). I've been trying to take apart their chord progressions and imitate the weird dissonant aspects of their tracks. I even ended up buying an acoustic guitar, a monosynth, and a fife to try and get that Campfire Headphase kind of sound. I don't plan on getting quite as autistic over recording techniques as they do though. Here are some more recent WIPs: https://vocaroo.com/3m1VEJxXHk3 https://vocaroo.com/dxaMZUTFkVv https://vocaroo.com/kztWXboRwcy The second one is pretty repetitive but I think it could be a nice vignette track with some more work (and a better recording; I played it by hand and cut the notes off sooner than I'd like).
>>788 >I try to have the best of both worlds by adopting any positive developments of life today while keeping everything else out. A very wise stance, I try to do the same in my life. >I like that synthwave stuff but am also sick of it Same here, but my sickness comes from most of it sounding too modern, hardly any synthwave tracks that really sound like authentic 80s songs. Yours was an exception. >specifically the leaked releases and The Campfire Headphase TCH is a great record, a close second favorite to Geogaddi for me. Haven't really checked BoC's leaked stuff aside from Old Tunes 1 & 2; the first was really good but the second was mediocre to me... I think they're musical geniuses and it's only natural that you're inspired by their work, but I urge you to also build on their style and make something unique rather than only attempting to replicate them. Just my opinion of course. And now for track reviews! >3m1VEJxXHk3 Love it. The ending may be a bit abrupt but this piece felt quite complete, if you edited the last portion to be a proper exit (maybe ending on a high note) it would be perfect. >dxaMZUTFkVv Not really that repetitive, it's quite nice. Not really sure how this one should progress though. >kztWXboRwcy A bit ominous, pretty cool. The stop in the middle was too abrupt but otherwise a solid foundation for a track, or even a loop.
Here's a little something since we have vaporwave fans on the board. As you may know vaporwave is a genre based on heavy sampling and modification, usually from the 80s-90s. However some artists have created sample-free, completely original vaporwave that sounds pretty close to something you'd hear in that era. Check these out.
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>>789 >Same here, but my sickness comes from most of it sounding too modern, hardly any synthwave tracks that really sound like authentic 80s songs. Yours was an exception. That's definitely my biggest issue with it. It's some of the only music I've liked that's come out of the 2010s, but at the same time, I'm also tired of how little it seems to draw from actual '80s music and how narrow the range of aesthetic influences on it seem to be (Blade Runner, John Carpenter movies, Tron, etc.). It's actually a pretty broad genre (just look at SAIR's funk music), but it seems like a lot of people are just trying do the same exact thing and getting the wrong impression of what actual '80s aesthetics were like. I get guys like Perturbator and Carpenter Brut trying to do their own thing and appreciate the aggressiveness of their music, but their edgy cyberpunk aesthetic isn't for me and I'd rather listen to actual '80s music (or at least something that feels closer to it). Stuff like MPM Soundtracks is a nice compromise to me. For a guy who used Synth1 for all his tracks, he did a great job of capturing the spirit of the '80s. His focus was also more melodic and I find the music to be more emotive overall than the more balls-to-the-wall artists. In one way I actually prefer the "chillwave" stuff that was popular at the beginning of the 2010s. There are definitely aspects of it I don't like (the weakling-indie-singer vocals seem to be very common, for one), but there seemed to be more of a personal focus to it rather than the "HEY, REMEMBER POP CULTURE THING FROM THE '80S?" gimmick that so much of the "retro electronic" music is based around. >TCH is a great record, a close second favorite to Geogaddi for me. Haven't really checked BoC's leaked stuff aside from Old Tunes 1 & 2; the first was really good but the second was mediocre to me... It's probably my favorite next to Music Has the Right to Children. Geogaddi I have problems getting into, but the vignettes on there are easily my favorites out of any of the albums. As for the Old Tunes stuff, it's definitely pretty inconsistent in quality. Some of my all-time favorite tracks from them were on those leaks ("5.9.78" and "Mukinabaht" come to mind), but there's also stuff that strikes me as filler. The same goes for the Random 35 Tracks Tape. These two are probably my favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbyp6gE8aMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdkhi0MRR6I Overall, I think their early tracks are among the most eerie stuff they've ever done despite the releases themselves being spotty in quality. >I think they're musical geniuses and it's only natural that you're inspired by their work, but I urge you to also build on their style and make something unique rather than only attempting to replicate them. Just my opinion of course. I definitely agree. I've been wracking my brain for a while trying to think of ways I could differentiate my work from theirs aesthetically. I was thinking about maybe adding some more digital '80s and '90s touches in terms of production, but I think that would kind of take away from the organic feeling I want the music to have. I definitely plan on having prominent lo-fi string samples, but Boards of Canada already did that on "The Beach at Redpoint." Maybe I could put some electric guitar bits in certain tracks if it seems appropriate. I really don't know. One problem is that some of my influences run parallel with theirs. Genuine '70s music usually doesn't appeal to me, but I find the weirder side of that decade pretty fascinating. I remember watching shows like In Search of... and reading '70s paranormal books as a kid, for example. '70s-style typefaces and graphic design I've also started to find appealing. I really don't want to just end up being thought of as a second-rate Boards of Canada. If I end up releasing anything, I'll probably do so under several different names dependent on the style that each release is in. I could have one for mangled '90s-style computer music separate from the more organic sound I'm trying to achieve right now, for example. >Not really that repetitive, it's quite nice. Not really sure how this one should progress though. I intend to add more background textures and maybe a lead line, even if it's just a bit of noodling. >A bit ominous, pretty cool. The stop in the middle was too abrupt but otherwise a solid foundation for a track, or even a loop. Yeah, the intent was just to show the two parts I have at this point. The second part is pretty skeletal, but it gives you a picture of the foundation the final track is going to be built on. So far the atmosphere's nice and creepy, but it needs a real melody. >>790 I'll have to give a listen to these. Vaporwave has always appealed to me, but its reliance on sampling is something that I've always disliked. That PrismCorp Virtual Enterprises one I do think I heard years ago judging from the artwork.
>>791 >SAIR >MPM Great taste anon. I honestly didn't know either of these, but they sound right up my alley. >the weakling-indie-singer vocals seem to be very common You hit the nail on the head, this is exactly how I'd describe these vocals. Sadly what started as a "fresh" trend in the early 2010s mostly in indie scenes has grown into a plague in the entire music industry, not only infecting pop music but also electronic and dance music which previously made use of lush dreamy vocals, instead of this garbage. >5.9.78 That's my favorite off the album too, really wish they released it officially. >I was thinking about maybe adding some more digital '80s and '90s touches in terms of production, but I think that would kind of take away from the organic feeling I want the music to have. Not if it's on a record that embraces the artificial electronic sound, like many 90s records that experimented with it. It would be a nice contrast to the traditional/organic record (s) you'll make. Note that "electronic lo-fi" could be a thing, drawing inspiration from early digital devices and mediums. >Genuine '70s music usually doesn't appeal to me, but I find the weirder side of that decade pretty fascinating. Haven't listened to any of the weirder 70s music, ashamedly, although I really want to. I did listen to Kate Bush however so I think that's a start... The decade was definitely an interesting one, with the birth of electronic music and 3D graphics and disco it would have sure been fascinating to live through it. >I could have one for mangled '90s-style computer music separate from the more organic sound I'm trying to achieve right now, for example. If you ever decide to release the tracker pieces, consider premiering them on tracker/demo platforms like the Mod Archive, they're fairly active and you'll get noticed faster and easier. >>792 I love Eyeliner, his best for me was High Fashion Mood Music. Couldn't really get into Buy Now so I don't get all the praise that album gets.
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I gave that Timid Soul album a try and have been listening to it every day now. >>792 Haven't heard this one, but I suppose it's time to give High Fashion Mood Music a re-listen. I heard it years ago and don't remember much of it. >>793 >That's my favorite off the album too, really wish they released it officially. I'd love for them to release all their lost or unreleased music. I don't like Trans Canada Highway or Tomorrow's Harvest all that much, so I'd probably prefer that over an actual new album. They've talked about cataloguing and releasing some of it in the past, but I think the last thing they said about the topic implied they just planned on passing it on to their family. Maybe there's a good reason they seem so dissatisfied with their early work, but I'd still love be able to hear it all. >Not if it's on a record that embraces the artificial electronic sound, like many 90s records that experimented with it. It would be a nice contrast to the traditional/organic record (s) you'll make. Note that "electronic lo-fi" could be a thing, drawing inspiration from early digital devices and mediums. Yeah, for the more digital stuff I still do plan on bouncing the tracks to cassette (or maybe VHS) for a lo-fi sound. Black metal and "dungeon synth" musicians used to record digital synths that way, and it sounds nice to me. I'd go so far as to say that I'd rather listen to a "lifeless" digital synth recorded with imperfect analog technology than a pristine digital recording of a "warm" analog synth. >Haven't listened to any of the weirder 70s music, ashamedly, although I really want to. I did listen to Kate Bush however so I think that's a start... The decade was definitely an interesting one, with the birth of electronic music and 3D graphics and disco it would have sure been fascinating to live through it. In terms of the music of that period, it's mainly disco, punk, and electronic music from the final years of the decade that appeal to me. Most of the rock from that era that isn't punk doesn't interest me much unless it's drawing from it. I spend more time listening to ABBA's records than anyone else's. I'm mainly into the weird happenings and the off-kilter cultural aspects of the '70s. You had widespread interest in the occult and alternative forms of spirituality (largely due to the influence of the hippies), parapsychology and paranormal interests in general coming more into the mainstream, prominent cult activity (The People's Temple, The Children of God, Alamo Christian Foundation, etc.), Jack Chick's comics (and evangelical Christians catching the premillennialist end times fever), the Love Canal disaster, as well as some of the most infamous serial killer activity of all time taking place. >If you ever decide to release the tracker pieces, consider premiering them on tracker/demo platforms like the Mod Archive, they're fairly active and you'll get noticed faster and easier. Do they even accept MIDI files, as opposed to .mods? That's really all those were. Back when I first started learning my way around a DAW I actually considered making music files for Doom .wads.
>>793 I liked Buy Now. It reminded me of playing some sort of multimedia CD or something. I like eyeliner's other stuff too though.
>>795 >It reminded me of playing some sort of multimedia CD or something Yeah, that's the appeal to me. It sounds like the soundtrack to a lost mid 90s edutainment game.
>>794 >I gave that Timid Soul album a try and have been listening to it every day now. Glad you liked it! >but I think the last thing they said about the topic implied they just planned on passing it on to their family. Damn... They'd rather die before making an official release? That's disappointing. I liked Tomorrow's Harvest though, it's the most "cold" sounding album but it's a treat to listen to. That being said I understand that it may not be that well liked, as opposed to MHtRtC/TCH/Geogaddi. >I'd go so far as to say that I'd rather listen to a "lifeless" digital synth recorded with imperfect analog technology than a pristine digital recording of a "warm" analog synth. First is pretty much all electronic music during the 80s-90s, second is all that's been pumped out in the 10s and beyond. I'm not a music wiz but I think you could achieve a preeeetty convincing warm effect using compressors and filters... Ever tried doing anything similar? >as well as some of the most infamous serial killer activity of all time taking place. Oh yeah I've watched a movie about that once, must have been one hell of a time. >Do they even accept MIDI files, as opposed to .mods? Er, no... You could convert MIDI to MOD but the Mod Archive have a strict policy against that, so maybe you could look for platforms centered around MIDIs and post there? I must say I'm quite impressed that those are just MIDIs, they sound as rich and complex as most of the MODs I've heard. I can only imagine what you would do with an actual tracker.
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>>797 >Damn... They'd rather die before making an official release? That's disappointing. I liked Tomorrow's Harvest though, it's the most "cold" sounding album but it's a treat to listen to. That being said I understand that it may not be that well liked, as opposed to MHtRtC/TCH/Geogaddi. Yeah, although on one hand I can't say I blame them for not wanting to release the stuff they made when they were younger and don't feel is up to their own standards. It sucks that that's possibly the case, but I get it. What I will say about Tomorrow's Harvest is that I consider "Nothing is Real" among their best tracks of all time. Other than that, there are a few other parts I like, such as "Split Your Infinities," the introductory fanfare to "Gemini," the optimistic-sounding ending of "New Seeds," and the final third portion of "Palace Posy." "Split Your Infinities" in particular reminds me of the climax of an '80s "genre movie." That's no surprise considering the album is supposed to sound like an '80s sci-fi flick in the first place. "White Cyclosa" even sounds like an homage to John Harrison's Day of the Dead music, which I'm sure was intentional given that they named him as an inspiration in an interview. I think my biggest problem with the album is that to me it lacks the kind of memorable chord progressions and melodic touches that a lot of their previous work had. "Nothing is Real" is the only track, I think, that gives me the otherworldly feelings that a lot of their older music does. A lot of the youthful naivete seems gone. I'm at least glad the Sandison brothers seem to have been satisfied with the record when they were done with it though. It seems like most of the listeners liked it too, although not to the extent of their earlier recordings. >First is pretty much all electronic music during the 80s-90s, second is all that's been pumped out in the 10s and beyond. I'm not a music wiz but I think you could achieve a preeeetty convincing warm effect using compressors and filters... Ever tried doing anything similar? I'm sure you could, but I'm OCD about actually recording to tape eventually. Maybe it's just masochism on my part. >Er, no... You could convert MIDI to MOD but the Mod Archive have a strict policy against that, so maybe you could look for platforms centered around MIDIs and post there? That's what I thought. >I must say I'm quite impressed that those are just MIDIs, they sound as rich and complex as most of the MODs I've heard. I can only imagine what you would do with an actual tracker. Yeah, those tracker-sounding ones are just .mids. I start tracks with basic soundfonts or as MIDIs right from the beginning, and that might have something to do with it. It can keep you focused on the actual composition aspect of making music instead of production gimmicks. Sweetening up the sound with nicer timbres and effects and stuff can come later, when the composition itself is actually completed. At that point, you can just assign the MIDI data to a hardware synth (or a VST if you want to make things easier) and record it. I also prefer MIDIs as a way of archiving pieces considering that they're the industry standard. That way you're not locked into some proprietary format that is hardly used outside of a specific program. Maybe another reason they sound nice is the bit of reverb I slapped on there.
>>795 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgKJr5MbXWQ New Eyeliner album came out btw. Thoughts?
>>799 just listening to the first couple seconds, this is great. I love that channel, "Vapor Memory". He's on Bitchute as well, I believe.
>>799 Sounds too dry and "metallic" in a sense, also lacking when it comes to melody. None of the tracks really grabbed my attention except Potpourri, but it's full of short pauses that it's impossible to get into its flow. I feel like Orange Milk is the graveyard label of vaporwave; a successful artist would sign with them only to produce something very underwhelming, usually as a follow-up to a successful album. For example DDS, Nmesh, and Eyeliner.
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>>779 Really, try Bryce. It's braindead easy and you can make something nice looking in a really short time (pic related within my first 2 hours of playing with it). It is pretty limited, but perfect for a start. Also freely available. https://archive.org/details/bryce4 https://archive.org/details/bryce4content
>>768 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6HCnub_OoU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ENMpzR54us I really love the stuff that Konzept has been making for Sam Hyde recently. It's a pleasure to watch and it looks like it was taken straight out of 1999-2004, just rendered in 4K.
>>883 Thanks, I downloaded Bryce 4 a while ago but didn't see that other .iso there.
>>768 I'm not sure if Kebu tries to be /retro/, but I'd say his music is definitely a contender because he plays a lot of his songs on analog synths. Even if the style is more modern, the sound is much closer to older songs because he uses similar or sometimes even the same instruments. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=A-6XqqYWzU8 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=cH2guTTyX8s https://yewtu.be/watch?v=TRCQmNMOqUY This sounds more authentic to the 80s than a lot of synthwave songs. I still like synthwave, but a lot of songs sound more like they're invoking nostalgia rather than replicating the original nostalgic sound.
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>>883 Nice. The characteristics of that render remind me of the loading screen to an old Mac game from the mid 90s, I used to play.
>>768 Here's a silly thing. The Sentai series is currently celebrating it's 45th anniversary with a special season, so they made their giant mecha theme sound like an authentic mecha/hero song from the 70's/80's, it's wonderful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMFaP5NYNb8 Their other mecha theme's retro effect is more subtle but it's meant to sound like a typical sentai song from the 00's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUEHZHJjB7Q
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>>1478 The "Deep Blue" song sounds like 90s Trance without the annoying hi-hat loop a lot of 90s Trance incoporated. So in other words, it sounds like good late 90s Trance. The other two links are retro songs, so not really original to him. "FM-84 - Atlas" is probably the closest new original music I've heard, that could pass for a late 80s "soft rock" album. Much of Synthwave music isn't trying to accurately replicate 80s music, it's just borrowing the popular sounds from that era and combining them with new production software and tech to make original tracks. While the terms aren't concrete, Retrowave is probably a better description for new music which strives to pass as 80s synth pop music, whereas Synthwave is revisiting the 80s synth sound and evolving it.
>>2007 >Much of Synthwave music isn't trying to accurately replicate 80s music, it's just borrowing the popular sounds from that era and combining them with new production software and tech to make original tracks. While the terms aren't concrete, Retrowave is probably a better description for new music which strives to pass as 80s synth pop music, whereas Synthwave is revisiting the 80s synth sound and evolving it. That's why I prefer the earlier stuff, which leaned more toward capturing the feeling of '80s synth music without necessarily trying to sound identical.
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>>778 here. I've messed around with Bryce for a while but thought it was a bit limited, so since early June I've been trying my hand at POV-Ray, and the results have been very satisfying and authentic. There's definitely a learning curve since I was writing my files by hand, but once that was over I was quite comfortable laying scenes out in 3D space with good knowledge of geometry... On the downside the modelling options are rather limited, and the rendering speed is relatively slow because of the ray tracing, however it all adds to that authentic 80s / early 90s experience. Fun fact; POV-Ray can easily do landscapes and (indirect) terrain generation, so no need to use Bryce after all. Anybody else tried making some 3D? I'd love to hear your experiences. >>783 >>788 Did you manage to finish your tracks? Really looking forward to a complete album/EP with this material.
>>2092 >>>778 here. I've messed around with Bryce for a while but thought it was a bit limited, so since early June I've been trying my hand at POV-Ray, and the results have been very satisfying and authentic. There's definitely a learning curve since I was writing my files by hand, but once that was over I was quite comfortable laying scenes out in 3D space with good knowledge of geometry... On the downside the modelling options are rather limited, and the rendering speed is relatively slow because of the ray tracing, however it all adds to that authentic 80s / early 90s experience. Fun fact; POV-Ray can easily do landscapes and (indirect) terrain generation, so no need to use Bryce after all. So was that image made with Bryce or POV-Ray? My first guess was Bryce. Either way, it looks good. >Anybody else tried making some 3D? I'd love to hear your experiences. I messed around with Anim8or for a bit. It seemed easy enough, but I couldn't find that many resources to spoonfeed me from what I remember and didn't want to spend any more time aimlessly screwing around with it. I'll have to try this stuff again someday, although I plan on trying a different program entirely. >Did you manage to finish your tracks? Really looking forward to a complete album/EP with this material. No, my laziness is getting the best of me. Lately I've been buying new equipment and getting a nicer setup. I just got some cases for my guitar pedals and synths recently, and I should be getting another rack synth soon. More importantly, I should be getting a new sampler in the next few months. That should help with coming up with percussion faster, which I just find tedious to do other than coming up with initial rhythms. Also, I've got so many short bits and pieces made in different styles that it gets kind of overwhelming trying to decide what tracks I should work on and which ones are even worth putting any time whatsoever into refining or fleshing. I've done a lot of crap over the years. I do plan on eventually finishing up some of the tracks I posted and maybe releasing an EP or short album, but it's probably going to take a while. I've already got some acoustic guitar recording done for half a track, but it seems like it's going to be a long process overall.
>>2093 >So was that image made with Bryce or POV-Ray? My first guess was Bryce. Either way, it looks good. It was made in POV-Ray, I'm glad that you like it! >I plan on trying a different program entirely. Just go with Blender. You'll be able to model virtually anything, and render in POV-Ray or Anim8or for the retro look. I plan on learning Blender myself as a companion to POV-Ray. >my laziness is getting the best of me >I've got so many short bits and pieces made in different styles that it gets kind of overwhelming trying to decide what tracks I should work on The solution to this is easy; post your bits here and let anons decide which ones have the most potential. But you have to work on something. >I've already got some acoustic guitar recording done for half a track, but it seems like it's going to be a long process overall. No doubt. Just finish the tracks you already made good progress on, release them, then make more. Having pushed something out of the door will greatly motivate you to push out more.
>>2094 >It was made in POV-Ray, I'm glad that you like it! You really don't need Bryce if you're able to make landscape images like that. >Just go with Blender. You'll be able to model virtually anything, and render in POV-Ray or Anim8or for the retro look. I plan on learning Blender myself as a companion to POV-Ray. I read that POV-Ray isn't compatible with the latest versions of Blender. That's the only reason why I wasn't considering it as an option. This seems to imply otherwise though: https://wiki.povray.org/content/HowTo:Use_POV-Ray_with_Blender >No doubt. Just finish the tracks you already made good progress on, release them, then make more. Having pushed something out of the door will greatly motivate you to push out more. If I had something released, I might be more accepting of how long everything's taking. I don't want to be one of those people who keep pumping out music even when they've lost the creative spark they used to have. I'd rather make something and then sit on it for a while to make sure I'm satisfied with it. I plan on just focusing on a small number of pieces like the ones I posted, but it can be hard to stay focused and not start messing around with another project. In the meantime, here's a little recording I just made of Prophet patch I created earlier this year: https://vocaroo.com/1azAMgIZBWZH
>>2095 >This seems to imply otherwise though Yeah I recall stumbling upon that link but I'm not too worried about it, I'm using an older version of POV-Ray anyway so this exporter probably won't work for me OOTB. Currently I get models into POV-Ray by exporting them from Blender as .obj files, then converting them to .inc files using a homemade script. >I don't want to be one of those people who keep pumping out music even when they've lost the creative spark they used to have. You haven't published any (complete) music yet though. It's like you're worried about your brand new car breaking down due to age, before even buying it... It's been more than a year now, that's more than enough time to create some demos, sit on them for a while, revisit them for refinement, and releasing them. >I plan on just focusing on a small number of pieces like the ones I posted, but it can be hard to stay focused and not start messing around with another project. Sounds like a plan. Only you can sedate the little monkey in your head and get some work done without distractions. >1azAMgIZBWZH Very good, as always. You could introduce some instruments as the track progresses to flesh it out, but otherwise it's a solid foundation.
>>2096 >Yeah I recall stumbling upon that link but I'm not too worried about it, I'm using an older version of POV-Ray anyway so this exporter probably won't work for me OOTB. Currently I get models into POV-Ray by exporting them from Blender as .obj files, then converting them to .inc files using a homemade script. Oh, okay. I thought you meant doing everything in Blender and just exporting to POV-Ray through that. >You haven't published any (complete) music yet though. It's like you're worried about your brand new car breaking down due to age, before even buying it... It's been more than a year now, that's more than enough time to create some demos, sit on them for a while, revisit them for refinement, and releasing them. I get what you mean, but I cringe when I listen to what I made when I just started making music. I remember uploading one to Newgrounds before deleting my account and it got bad ratings. >Sounds like a plan. Only you can sedate the little monkey in your head and get some work done without distractions. It doesn't help that I have a really short attention span and am not a NEET with tons of time to spare anymore. I've decided to spend some time every day trying to work on my attention problems. >Very good, as always. You could introduce some instruments as the track progresses to flesh it out, but otherwise it's a solid foundation. I was just testing out that patch and didn't bother saving what I did. It would be easy enough to get in the same ballpark of that anyway. I'm pretty happy with that sound, since I seem to have an easier time with FM synthesis than subtractive. With the right interface, anyway. Those old '80s FM synths would have been a nightmare to program.
>>2097 >Oh, okay. I thought you meant doing everything in Blender and just exporting to POV-Ray through that. You can do that too, whatever works most comfortably for you. That's probably the optimal workflow if you're doing animation, but for now I'm just making do with my script to create static scenes. >I cringe when I listen to what I made when I just started making music Failure is necessary for improvement, your first 5/10/20 tracks are gonna be (relatively) bad, that's simply how it is. But these 20 bad tracks have to exist in the first place, so that the following 20 tracks can be better... You'll only improve by doing (i.e. releasing your music) to gain experience and outside opinions if needed. And don't let negative ratings get to your head, they will always be there and you're gonna have to learn to ignore them or take only the constructive parts of them. I know talent when I see it and you definitely have talent, so invest in it and don't waste it. >I've decided to spend some time every day trying to work on my attention problems. That's great! Post your progress here every now and then so you can stay motivated. Currently I'm looking into making a website to publish my art through, since I have a couple finished 3D scenes. It's most probably gonna be a Neocities website, although I'm kinda dreading all the HTML/CSS I'm gonna have to write.
>>2098 >Currently I'm looking into making a website to publish my art through, since I have a couple finished 3D scenes. It's most probably gonna be a Neocities website, although I'm kinda dreading all the HTML/CSS I'm gonna have to write. I was thinking about doing that at some point, but I don't know what I'd put on it.
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>>2101 >I don't know what I'd put on it. Finish _one_ song or art piece and post it, that would be a start and you'll get the ball rolling. Here's what my website looks like: https://grecomoran.neocities.org/
>>2124 >Here's what my website looks like: https://grecomoran.neocities.org/ Nice, and I'll have check up on it every so often. >Finish _one_ song or art piece and post it, that would be a start and you'll get the ball rolling. I was thinking maybe putting synth patches up for other people to use.
>>2125 >Nice, and I'll have check up on it every so often. Glad you like it! And please do, I'll be posting another render next week. >I was thinking maybe putting synth patches up for other people to use. That also works but do get some tracks out of the door too You could use the website as writing space as well, like a blog but in a much more DIY fashion... I'm planning on doing the same but after I finish publishing a couple more renders, maybe I'll even do a breakdown of a scene. We'll see.
>>2126 >but do get some tracks out of the door too I have been working on arranging one of the ones I posted before, although I seem to have hit a wall right now.
>>2127 >I seem to have hit a wall right now. How so? Maybe I can help.
>>2128 I'm having problems coming up with a bass part I actually like for a certain section of the piece. I'm just going to have to keep working at it.
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>>2129 You can let it be for a while if you're really stuck, but don't give up on it. Here's my second render (1st pic) inspired by an old 1991 POV-Ray scene (2nd pic). The website has been updated as well.
>>2131 >You can let it be for a while if you're really stuck, but don't give up on it. Right now I'm learning how to use my new sampler and also coming up with some YM2612 sounds. Coming back to that track is still a priority for me since it's so far along, and the rest of the arrangement should be pretty straightforward when I get the bassline out of the way. >Here's my second render (1st pic) inspired by an old 1991 POV-Ray scene (2nd pic). The website has been updated as well. Good job. When I saw the thumbnails, my first thought was that your version must have been a companion image from around the time of the original that I must have missed.
>>2132 >Right now I'm learning how to use my new sampler and also coming up with some YM2612 sounds. Oh nice! Any samples you can post? >my first thought was that your version must have been a companion image That's great, I was really aiming for authenticity there. I recently saw that there was interest for prints of retro CGI like this over at reddit so I'm considering tapping into that, but the question is what's the best method of receiving payment without forking over all my personal info? >inb4 nft
>>2133 >what's the best method of receiving payment without forking over all my personal info? Unless you're meeting your prospective buyer in a back alley and being paid in cash anything involving traditional money will link back to you somehow, in which case a cryptocurrency would be the solution but their usefulness is limited.
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>>2134 Well that sucks... Crypto might work but I only know about Bitcoin, so it's gonna require some research on my part. Made pic related for the holidays as something that can be printed on a postcard, turned out quite nice. Merry Christmas /retro/.
>>2131 >>2135 These are on point anon, the signature is the only way you can tell they aren't from the time period. Great work!
>>2133 >Oh nice! Any samples you can post? Alright, here's a slapdash Toaplan imitation I threw together: https://vocaroo.com/1fVXRTC46IZb It's all done on a VST, since I haven't gotten around to trying real hardware yet due to constantly making so many edits to the sounds and reevaluating them. After coming back to making YM2612 patches, I'm not used to how thin the bass is in comparison to more "professional" FM synths. On the positive side, the gritty tone lends itself nicely to mid-range basses, metallic clanks, and harsh mechanical noises. >I recently saw that there was interest for prints of retro CGI like this over at reddit so I'm considering tapping into that, but the question is what's the best method of receiving payment without forking over all my personal info? I don't know much about that. I would probably just take Monero, but the other guy's right in that it wouldn't be that useful. >>2135 Another really nice picture.
>Wrong answer or expired captcha! >Wrong answer or expired captcha! >Wrong answer or expired captcha! I can't post anything, please fix. >>2140 >>2141 Thanks anons, I'm really happy you like my renders. :-) >>2141 >1fVXRTC46IZb Sounds nice, a little chiptune-ish but I'm guessing that's intentional. This could be easily reworked into a loop for a video game level. >Monero I heard about that as well... Did you ever receive Monero? If yes how did it go? Other anons are welcome to chime in as well.
>>2143 >Sounds nice, a little chiptune-ish but I'm guessing that's intentional. This could be easily reworked into a loop for a video game level. It's really just a crappy version of something you'd hear in a Genesis shoot-'em-up game. Not something of really high quality, like a Technosoft game, but something more average like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOsw5zAQTw >I heard about that as well... Did you ever receive Monero? If yes how did it go? I've never tried it and am definitely no expert on the topic, but if I got into cryptocurrency it's the one I'd use. It seems the most serious about privacy, and the government seems really upset about it. It unfortunately wouldn't surprise me if they tried to ban it entirely.
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>>768 Mike Bonnell had some good ones back in 2000
>>2148 Nice, all I remember from back then is Digital Blasphemy. It is neat to see some other similar images from around the same time.
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>>2154 I rally like this kind of image.
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>>2156 Yeah, I just wished I posted them in the right thread.
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>>2124 A little update; I finally embraced the "spartan" design and my website looks so much better now, pic related. Initially I tried a Windows 95/98 style (which you've already seen) but it got boring really quickly, especially since the style is ubiquitous on other /retro/ websites. So I changed the colors and wrestled with the html/css for a while, but nothing was working... Until I threw in the towel and removed all the styling to start over from scratch, that's when I realized the website already looks good! The layout is uncluttered, the art pops out more, and the text is perfectly readable. The cherry on top is it all looks like a genuine 1990s website (see zlib.net for an example). A few tweaks later and I was done, now I can finally focus on writing for the website rather than writing the website itself... And speaking of, I'm currently working on a mini tutorial series for POV-Ray. I'll keep you guys updated.
>>2165 I do think the more basic does look better, and it definitely seems authentic.
>>2165 That's a nice functional design, the art is the focus point as it should be. Looking forward to the tutorials!
Check this one out. This track could fit right in to a Miami Vice episode. https://invidious.osi.kr/watch?v=ua0TXQ2_tjE
>>2167 >>2168 Thank you both. I have published part 0 of the tutorial series here: https://grecomoran.neocities.org/texts/2022-02-10-pov0/index.html Unfortunately I don't go into any 3D stuff in this article, only the basics of 2D for complete beginners. The 3D stuff along with the POV-Ray code will be in part 1, which I'm yet to write... Would love to hear what you think of part 0 though, especially if you're non-technical and not good at math/geometry.
>>2203 >Would love to hear what you think of part 0 though I'm already familiar with the subject but I think you've done well to cover the basics, anyone who did 2D coordinates in school will catch on quickly, though it might not be as accessible to complete beginners. The one thing I noticed is that you didn't render the chessboard and clock in Povray lol.
>>2205 >anyone who did 2D coordinates in school will catch on quickly, though it might not be as accessible to complete beginners. That's the thing though... The main demographic for that article are the complete beginners, I was trying to simplify the subject as much as possible so anyone can get into it. How can I simplify it further? >The one thing I noticed is that you didn't render the chessboard and clock in Povray lol. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>>2212 >How can I simplify it further? I think it's more to do with reinforcement and verbosity, i.e having redundancy in the text which reinforces and perhaps over explains the ideas you're talking about, I tried modifying the section on rectangles to illustrate what I mean: >A rectangle is made up of 4 different points connected to each other by straight lines, however each point is only connected to 2 other points. The 4 edges that make up the rectangle are divided into 2 horizontal edges and 2 vertical edges. > >We denote a rectangle by 4 pairs of coordinates in an order that creates a "closed" shape, for example (0, 2) , (0, 4) , (4, 4) , (4, 2), which gives us our bottom left, top left, top right and bottom right points respectively. > >An alternative notation for a rectangle is only 2 pairs of coordinates, such that these coordinates correspond to 2 points that are opposite to each other, for example (0, 4) , (4, 2) defines our upper left and bottom right points, so that we don't have to specify all 4 points. Notice how the x coordinate is different across the two pairs, and so is the y coordinate? We will be using this alternative notation from now on. It's not that big of a thing and I'm most likely overthinking it, chances are that anyone who wants to make retro-style renders and isn't just using Blender for that purpose probably has the right mindset anyway. Keep up the good work.
>>2214 >I think it's more to do with reinforcement and verbosity Yeah I see what you mean, and the example you provided is perfect. I'll try to be more verbose in the next article. >I'm most likely overthinking it Not at all! You're providing the exact type of feedback that I need, and you bet I'll looking forward to your feedback on the coming article too.
>>2203 I haven't finished reading it completely, but it seems pretty straightforward to me. That's saying something because I'm horrible with just about anything involving numbers.
Check out Especia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQz4GIOB8gg Sadly they're now disbanded, but they did release some MV VHS/DVDs! I downloaded it from Jpopsuki
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YinyangGio on Twitter is someone who actually uses video programs to impact his art to look much more aesthetics. As well as imitating the imperfections really well, especially with 3D models. I actually tricked some people on discord into thinking his art was a screenshot from a show
>>2264 >YinyangGio Impressive... Are all these pressed to real tape or did he just use a filter? If it's a filter I would really really love to get my hands on it.
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After a few months I finally uploaded part 1 of the POV-Ray series, with actual 3D content this time! https://grecomoran.neocities.org/texts/2022-06-04-pov1/index.html >>2214 >>2220 I reworked part 0 somewhat since I last posted, it should be more elaborate now.
>>2386 Looking good anon! The only notes I have is that you might want to host your build (is there a reason it's an older version?) on archive.org and potentially use Wayback copies of any legacy external pages to avoid potential link rot in the future. >I reworked part 0 somewhat since I last posted, it should be more elaborate now. Yep, that's definitely improved. I'm glad the feedback was useful.
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>>2386 Just for fun, a demo render using the concepts introduced in part 1. Source: https://files.catbox.moe/akezbw.pov
>>2388 That's great to hear and thank you for the feedback! >host your build on archive.org and potentially use Wayback copies of any legacy external pages Good call, I'll start archiving my links. Although I'm reluctant to use archive.org as my primary host, because it gets slow often and sometimes has connection issues. >is there a reason it's an older version? Yes. It's because POV-Ray 2.x is a good version for beginners; it's not too bare-bones but not too full of features that it's overwhelming. With POV-Ray 3.x scene writing became full-on scripting, with the introduction of conditional statements, loops...etc which are useful no doubt but again not to a beginner (or anyone making retro CGI exclusively). There's also another (technical) reason; version 2.x is small and self-contained, so it compiles cleanly on modern systems. Starting with 3.0 there are dependencies on old libraries so compilation is a hassle, and the current 3.x releases are too big and too bloated so also a hassle to compile. >>2391 That's so cool! A Rubik's cube house made using only basic shapes, pretty creative anon. I'm overjoyed to see the tutorial being put to good use. :-) This gives me an idea... I should probably dedicate a later tutorial to building a complete scene from scratch. Nothing too fancy, just something anons can show for completing the tutorial series.
>>2392 That makes sense, I better grab 2.x to ensure scene compatibility if we're sharing pov files. >I should probably dedicate a later tutorial to building a complete scene Sounds good, reinforcing what the reader has learned is an important part of a good tutorial.
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I was curious about POVRay 2 vs 3 so I did some tests. Versions 2.2 and 3.7 were put up against the LEVEL2 scene set (found in https://www.povray.org/ftp/pub/povray/Old-Versions/Official-2.2/POVSCN.ZIP) using the following arguments: [code]povray2 +L<povray2include> +I<scene.pov> +O<scene.tga> +FT +W640 +H480 +A0.1 +V[/code] POVRay 3 was given the +MV parameter to engage backwards compatibility mode (2.2 in this case): [code]povray3 +I<scene.pov> +O<scene.tga> +FT +W640 +H480 +A0.1 +MV2.2 +V[/code] The resulting images and render times (from start of program execution to completion) were recorded and can be seen in picrel (warning: fuck hueg). What we can see is that POVRay 3's backwards compatibility is mixed, while it generally does well there's obvious and less obvious differences from the 2.2 render. In fact some images fail to render at all mainly as a result of syntax errors (though it is likely possible to fix those errors without much issue). The reason for these discrepancies appears to be a combination of tweaks over time to the default texture set as well as larger changes in the underlying render engine. More concerning is that POVRay 2 failed to produce the 'pawns' scene successfully, at least in my case segfaulting after partially rendering the image (though POVRay 3 didn't do the scene justice either). Perhaps code rot is finally catching up to the nearly 30 year old codebase? On a more positive note we can see where POVRay 3 benefits in this benchmark: the render times. In most cases (with some exceptions where 2.2 is faster, presumably due to 20 extra years of development resulting in a bit of overhead), 3.7 manages to shave fractions of a second to several seconds off of the render time, altogether resulting in almost half a minute of time saved vs 2.2. The biggest reason for this is simple: 3.7 is multi-threaded whereas 2.2 is stuck with a single core (not surprising for a program of its vintage). This is something that you'll definitely notice while iterating on a scene. In conclusion it's impressive that POVRay 3 can render projects from decades prior, even if those results are flawed. Even more impressive is that POVRay 2 works at all on modern systems, though if the raytracing community wants to preserve these legacy scenes as they were meant to be seen then 2.2's code may need some TLC.
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>>2395 Interesting tests and results, I always knew 3.x was backwards-compatible so I'm a little disappointed to see that's not entirely true. But I'm surprised that `pawns.pov` didn't render for you, it rendered fine for me just now... Can you tell me your specs? What OS are you running? Did you compile v2.2 yourself or did you use the binaries linked in the tutorial?...etc. >Even more impressive is that POVRay 2 works at all on modern systems POV-Ray was written to be portable from day one, with strict standard compliance in the code and rigorous testing on multiple systems. And that was back in the 90's when there were a gazillion different machines and operating systems! It's only natural that it works everywhere, and I'm so glad that it does. >2.2's code may need some TLC I recall seeing only a handful of warnings when compiling it so I don't know how much it can be improved, if at all. That being said it might be fun taking a look at the code.
>>2396 >Can you tell me your specs? Debian 11 x64 on a Sandy Bridge i3. Compiled from source using the machine files from the UNIX folder. After some tests the issue appears to be with +A0.1, higher values or lower resolutions render successfully (strangely the way that textures are mapped on my build is visually different for some reason). Perhaps compiler differences are the cause? What about you? Were there any particular steps you used to build (your build did work - producing identical output so there's definitely some variable in the compilation process)?
>>2397 Nice to see other anons using linux. Hope you don't mind me getting a little technical then! >Compiled from source using the machine files from the UNIX folder This is what I did, with 2 minor changes: 1. POV-Ray depends on random numbers to create patterns/textures, and by default uses the system's random number generator function. Naturally, this causes the output to be different on each system, so to remedy this problem I forced POV-Ray to always use its own "fallback" random function instead of the system one. 2. The binaries that I compiled are statically linked instead of dynamically linked, with the musl standard library instead of glibc. I'm not sure if this matters at all but I'm mentioning it regardless. >After some tests the issue appears to be with +A0.1, higher values or lower resolutions render successfully Strange... This usually happens on low memory systems (think less than a MB of RAM) which is definitely not the case here. >the way that textures are mapped on my build is visually different That's because the binary you compiled is using your system's random function, instead of POV-Ray's internal one. It's very easy to change that though, scroll down the manual to Appendix A at the bottom: https://pastebin.com/raw/vHhn3Nm2
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>>2399 Thanks anon, it was that meddling RNG all along. Kind of surprising that they used the system RNG when determinism is so beneficial for a program like this. >>2395 So, with a fully working build of POVRay 2 we can now complete the benchmark. With the addition of the pawns scene we can see that 2.2 is over a minute behind 3.7 in total render time, I think POVRay 3 definitely has a place for scene prototyping where the visual differences aren't too stark. In fact, given that textures are randomized, that may account for quite a few of the texture discrepancies we see (though there's still plenty of other issues of course).
Jason Scott, known for textfiles.com and his work at the Internet Archive, recalls what it was like to raytrace back in the day (including POVRay): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWGJPH1qbXs
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I've got a (Pacman) fever, and the only prescription, is more POVRay! Source: https://files.catbox.moe/tusbn7.zip
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>>2400 >determinism is so beneficial for a program like this Agreed. I think the 3.x series uses the internal RNG already, at least judging from a few tests I made. >I think POVRay 3 definitely has a place for scene prototyping POV-Ray 3.x has certain "quirks" that come to light when rednering 2.x scenes, so I just use POV-Ray 2.2 but with low render settings, this makes rendering quite fast and does the job very well throughout the initial scene design phase... I plan to cover render settings in a future article along with other "good practices" for saving time, but all in good time. >>2401 Great insight, and pretty much what I expected to hear. 1980s-1990s consumer PCs were extremely slow, it's a wonder any raytracing was done on them at all. One popular trick to save time was drawing the entire scene by hand on graph paper first, engineering style, then typing all the coordinates into a POV file in one go. It wasn't perfect of course, but it was a good enough hack for the time... I like to do that even today when creating my scenes, but I use "virtual" graph paper on GIMP, haha. >>2404 Beautiful. You're on a roll lately! I see you used boxes to model individual pixels, a better way to go about this is by using a height field. In brief, if you already have a pixel-perfect screenshot of the game screen you intend to model, make it black and white (black=empty & white=object) and enlarge it by x10 without interpolation, then use it as a height map. To add color, apply value propagation to the original screenshot in GIMP or similar, then use the screenshot as a texture. This may be a bit advanced so don't stress over it too much for now, I'll probably cover all this in depth later on. You did good with your scene anon.
>>2406 >I plan to cover render settings in a future article along with other "good practices" for saving time A good part to include for sure, there's no doubt countless useful tricks and tweaks. >One popular trick to save time was drawing the entire scene by hand on graph paper first Interesting, that reminds me of how game sprites were designed way back before general purpose art software. Visualization is such a key skill for this kind of thing. >I use "virtual" graph paper on GIMP, haha You're living the raytracing life! >Beautiful. You're on a roll lately! Thanks! POVRay is good fun. >a better way to go about this is by using a height field That's a great tip anon, would've saved me writing this: https://files.catbox.moe/u9m0i5.zip
>>2404 That reminds me of a video I watched last year. The channel is mildly cancerous but they usually have insightful things to say about VFX. Their goal to recreate old school Tron effects using semi-old 3D technology is genuinely pretty impressive. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=T2-yhFTCCzY The VFX for Tron were apparently done mostly using math and spreadsheets to plan out where objects would go and how they would appear on the screen.
>>2401 A prelude to that podcast written many years prior: https://web.archive.org/web/20121025031942/http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/1240 Not much new but some nice links inside.
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>>2422 It's actually him wow
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So that's where Vigo is hiding. Source: https://files.catbox.moe/pjmie0.zip
>>2431 At first glance I thought this was a screenshot from a 90's game, great job anon... So happy to see anons bringing back the spirit of old CGI. What's with the bumpiness on the Mona Lisa though? It looks a bit like pixel art.
>>2433 Thanks, I'm glad you like it! >What's with the bumpiness on the Mona Lisa though? Do you mean the mottled paint or the square tiles? For the latter I thought it would be interesting if it looked as though the different parts of the painting were shifting in and out (kind of like the main menu in Chronicles of Riddick I guess).
>>2431 Very nice.
>>2408 >https://files.catbox.moe/u9m0i5.zip What's this code for? I ran it on a random PNG and it just generates a 20MB POV script that renders nothing.
>>2484 I think it takes a pixel art image and turns each pixel into a cube in POV-Ray. Try it on a small image first to see if it works, and adjust the camera/lights as they may not be properly positioned.
>>2484 >>2487 The script creates an object that needs to be referenced by your scene to appear (so 'object {<name>}'), as the help suggests it can also attempt some optimizations to make the file smaller and easier to read. It's not really needed though (except perhaps if you want to quickly generate lots of walls or something), height fields are much better for pixel/blocky effects (see the Mona source for an example).
Does anyone know if it's possible to create 16 point Bicubic patches in Blender? The POVRay addon doesn't expose them and the closest option I could find (rectangle curve) is missing the middle 4 points. Alternatively are there any maintained FOSS patch modellers? Manual calculation is possible of course but beyond a certain level of complexity that becomes less feasible.
>>2669 I'm in the same boat as you, I've hit a roadblock with POV-Ray because I couldn't find any proper patch modelling tools. The only programs I know of are historic ones like Hamapatch and sPatch, which I couldn't get into. How difficult would it be to program a simple patch modeler?
>>2673 >historic ones like Hamapatch and sPatch Yeah I've seen those mentioned (apparently they work with WINE too). I looked into Wings 3D but it doesn't seem to have any kind of curve functionality (there's a WIP plugin on the forum which has something to do with curves but I don't know if that includes patches). >How difficult would it be to program a simple patch modeler? That's definitely beyond me (though the rendering is the hard part probably). I wonder how difficult updating some of the existing old tools would be? I guess it depends on how many legacy dependencies they have. Looking at https://www.povray.org/resources/links/3D_Programs/POV-Ray_Modelling_Programs & https://wiki.povray.org/content/Knowledgebase:POV-Ray_Modelling_Programs there's a number of open source (and Linux) programs, surely at least one of them supports Bicubic patches?
>>2674 I went through the lists you linked and found 2 free modellers that support bicubic patches, unfortunately both are ancient and I couldn't compile them... > Model Scene Editor > https://mse.sourceforge.net/ A modeler written in Pascal for an old Windows IDE called Delphi, it was ported to Linux but pulled due to bugs. > Truevision > https://truevision.sourceforge.net/ Another modeler written in C++, depends on ancient GNOME-related libraries that are no longer available. Tried compiling one of them from source and gave up, maybe someone else will have better luck.
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>>2676 I did more digging and discovered some interesting things. For some reason this slightly different link https://www.povray.org/resources/links/3D_Programs/POV-Ray_Modelling_Programs/ shows a list with some extra software. Now sometimes it's worth searching Github for older programs and incredibly, KPovModeler has a QT5 port with a commit as recent as 2021! After cloning https://github.com/eticre/povmodeler and sorting out dependencies (the only additional thing I needed was libqt5x11extras5-dev) it compiled! The program seems pretty well featured and although it's for POVRay 3, it shouldn't be difficult to do any necessary syntax changes for version 2. I may poke around at some of the other tools to see if their code can be updated with modern libraries, just for the sake of choice. Either way though this is exciting, the possibilities povmodeler opens up are enormous!
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>>2677 Thank you so much for finding this! The program looks easy to use and even has sample scenes. Can't wait to play around with it.
Found some POVRay related things of interest: 1. Another podcast, this time from 2008 during the 3.7 beta period, featuring David Buck as a special guest: https://twit.tv/shows/floss-weekly/episodes/24 2. Mentioned in that podcast is the first render in space, performed by Mark Shuttleworth of Ubuntu fame, more details here: https://www.povray.org/posters/ 3. Also mentioned is Povray's acquisition of the commercial Moray modeller, which has sat on the back-burner ever since due to a lack of developers. However, the Moray site at http://www.stmuc.com/ is apparently under construction, earlier this year the old homepage was still available so something might be afoot: https://web.archive.org/web/20220517133442/http://www.stmuc.com/ 4. Furthering this suspicion is a fairly active thread on the newsgroup with talk of a potential source release for Moray: https://news.povray.org/moray.win/thread/%3Cweb.6295c4ddaeb80d548af0bb1fd061826%40news.povray.org%3E/ On the subject of modelling software, povmodeler is a very useful tool for prototyping ideas, though it lacks the ability to stitch bicubic patches together. Fortunately the POVRay 3 docs feature a handy bicubic patch guide that's applicable to POVRay 2. If Moray does see a modern release it will be interesting to compare the feature sets.
>>2701 Damn how do you find this cool stuff? Good effort anon. >though it lacks the ability to stitch bicubic patches together That's an issue for me as well. One workaround is noting the numerical values for a specific patch and manually inputting them into another patch, it's not optimal but better than nothing. I'm having another issue though; wireframe view. I often get confused looking at models because both front-facing and back-facing polygons are drawn, which doesn't provide any visual clues as to which "way" I'm looking. There should be at the very least a "flat" view that fills in the polygons. >Fortunately the POVRay 3 docs feature a handy bicubic patch guide that's applicable to POVRay 2 Care to link the guide?
>>2704 >There should be at the very least a "flat" view that fills in the polygons Yeah that would be handy, something Moray does of course. Another thing that would be cool (probably pretty easy to add actually) is a freecam like in GtkRadiant, Trenchbroom, etc. which Moray also has. >Care to link the guide? Sure thing: https://www.povray.org/documentation/3.7.0/t2_3.html#t2_3_1_5 Should create smooth transitions though depending on the design sometimes you won't get the desired shape.
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>>2264 Porn artist @ShinPepi did a recreation of a recent Spongebob Christmas Special from 2021. The artist uses Retroarch shaders, link to making of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44LQVtwSfiM
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>>2711 @tripplejaz does Sonic CD stuff, making his own full 2d fan game that imitates the Toei/Maeda Sonic style from the opening
>>2712 Nice, I always liked that CD/OVA look, the fan game looks pretty cool too.
>>2092 Yo anon, how did you go about making that detailed height field?
https://github.com/JargeZ/ntscqt This is interesting, unlike most "VHS filters" this project seems to be much more interested in accuracy (check out the effects it can simulate at the bottom). Some of the demos look overcooked but you can probably dial in some pretty good results with a bit of effort.
While these works may fall in line with parody rather than replication, Neil Cicierega does an excellent job of doing the /retro/ style: https://invidious.fdn.fr/watch?v=L_cei19G3L4 This video in particular uses modern filming technology, but the sound design and script definitely seems to be aping /retro/ media: https://invidious.fdn.fr/watch?v=wjS3hxPiEts
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>>2715 >how did you go about making that detailed height field? Using POV-Ray, naturally. ;-) Short version: generate a pattern in a separate scene, then render it once in grayscale to create the height field and once more in color to create the texture. Long version: You can easily create a height field from a noise texture, and POV-Ray can natively generate one for you. In a new scene, add a flat plane and apply a noisy texture to it. Adjust the camera and default ambient/diffuse values so the render looks like an image of regular 2D noise. #include "colors.inc" camera { location <0, 0, 6> right <4/3, 0, 0> look_at <0, 0, 0> } #default { finish { diffuse 0 ambient 1 } } plane { z, 0 pigment { bozo turbulence .5 color_map { [0 color White] [1 color Black] } } } This will be your height map; brighter areas will be elevated and darker areas will be closer to the ground. It doesn't have colors though... Thankfully the same noise texture can be reused to give the height field some color, all you have to do is replace the grayscale color map with one containing rock colors. plane { z, 0 pigment { bozo turbulence .5 omega .7 color_map { [0.0 color LightWood] [0.2/2 color Gold] [0.8/2 color Copper] [1.0/2 color IndianRed] } } } Notice the newly added "omega", one of the many modifiers for controlling the shape of the noise. This will make the colored texture look rougher to simulate a rocky surface. Consult the manual for the full list of texture modifiers and experiment with them to reach the texture that suits your purpose. Now the two noisy images can be combined, in a new scene, to create a nice terrain. Adding a wrinkly normal texture makes the terrain's surface even more believable. #include "colors.inc" camera { location <0, 2, -10> right <4/3, 0, 0> look_at <0, 2, -1> } light_source { <0, 2, -10> color White } #default { finish { diffuse .7 ambient .3 } } height_field { tga "height_map.tga" texture { pigment { image_map {tga "rocky.tga" once interpolate 2 map_type 0} rotate x*90 } normal {wrinkles .7 scale .02} } translate <-.5, -.5, -.5> scale <24, 6, 24> translate z*5 }
>>2728 >Using POV-Ray, naturally. ;-) Aha, very clever. Thanks anon.
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>>2723 I've been on the lookout for an authentic VHS effect, so far only ntscQT and Blender VHS[1] come close. The former looks too exaggerated even with all the settings toned down, while the latter is way too subtle... I think a more accurate effect can be achieved if the input is somehow converted to a raw VHS signal and then "captured" by any of the available VHS digitization programs, rather than simply processed as a digital image with digital filters. [1] https://youtu.be/n-zZMiMCTYo
>>2731 If you really want that authentic look, you can record it to your own VHS tapes (all you have to do is get composite output into your VCR), run it through a few times (VHS tapes degrade on average about 2% each time you watch them) then get a composite to USB cable and run it back into your PC.
>>2731 Shame that ntscQT is exaggerated, I wonder if you can separate out certain effects and only use some of them as its own render pass and then finish processing in Blender? >if the input is somehow converted to a raw VHS signal According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS: >NTSC VHS is roughly equivalent to 333×480 pixels luma and 40×480 chroma resolutions As an analog format it's not quite so simple of course. Maybe a 2-step process with step 1 taking a 333x480 source (with 40x480 chroma sub-sampling) and applying the actual 'VHS filtering', then in step 2 converting that to a 240p composite-like image? >>2732 That is the best option but it would be nice to have a solution that doesn't rely on discontinued media and playback devices, for preservation purposes more than anything. Now that I think about it the Raspberry Pi has composite output, so that's one problem solved at least.
>>2733 recently came across a project that simulates CRT TVs with FFMPEG, don't know if it'd be of any use to you. https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/FFmpeg-CRT-transform
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Something for the festive season, happy holidays anons, I hope you have a good one! Source: https://files.catbox.moe/x6nkbu.zip
>>2737 More POV-Ray goodness! Great render anon, this warms my heart. Will you make a neocities or similar to showcase your work?
>>2740 >Great render anon, this warms my heart. Rendering it will warm your computer too ;^) Thanks anon, glad I could bring the festivities. >Will you make a neocities or similar to showcase your work? That's a good idea, something to work on in the new year for sure.
>>2737 Saved.
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Speaking of >>2731 and treating images as signals, I accidentally created a VHS "effect" by manipulating images as audio in Audacity. The process for it is very simple, it just takes some time since everything is done manually. The gist of it is basically converting an RGB image to LCh color space (1 black & white component + 2 color components), exporting each component as a raw data file, then importing each raw file into Audacity and resampling it into a lower sample rate (frequency). That's it. The resulting audio signal is then converted back to raw data, then back to an RGB image. The "effect" is enhanced by pre-processing the image, for example by converting to YUV420p color space and adding noise. The result is not perfect, but looks pretty darn good and is tuneable to a great degree. Shortcomings: - This "effect" only goes in one direction; horizontally. There are no vertical artifacts even though there should be. - The "ringing" artifacts around sharp edges propagate for too long. - While some color bleeding occurs, it's different from how color bleeding looks on VHS, and sometimes produces unwanted artifacts (see the orange/purple flowers). - Since the black & white and color components are completely separate, there's zero interference between them (i.e. no "dot crawl" effect). - ??? I'm not knowledgable in DSP at all, I was just messing around in Audacity. Maybe in the future I'll study the subject and be able to effectively address the shortcomings of this "effect"... Or maybe another anon can use this post as a starting point for a better approach. ;^)
>>2777 (lucky get) That's pretty great anon, nice find! >This "effect" only goes in one direction; horizontally. There are no vertical artifacts even though there should be. The easiest solution would be to rotate the image and do it again. >Since the black & white and color components are completely separate, there's zero interference between them (i.e. no "dot crawl" effect). You could probably process the image in raw RGB, anything that's been downsampled can be upsampled again (with various algorithms to choose from). >I'm not knowledgable in DSP at all, I was just messing around in Audacity. Well it's all just bytes in the end. There's all sorts of existing audio effects in various forms, the process could even be automated in a script with say imagemagick + sox for instance.
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Shortly after posting I found a fix for the incorrect colors; using YCbCr color space! YCbCr is probably the closest to how VHS represents colors, the results are pretty much perfect without any unwanted artifacts. >>2778 >sox This is great, thank you! Not only is SoX faster to use than Audacity, it also has multiple resamplers (or resampler settings) that are much better suited for my needs. One resampler solves my problem with ringing artifacts by toning them down, and another resampler shifts the image slightly and produces natural looking color bleed. What a gold mine. >>There are no vertical artifacts >rotate the image and do it again. I tried that actually, but the results look bad and not like VHS at all. It must be something else... >You could probably process the image in raw RGB I'd like to avoid that as much as possible. In my current workflow I don't do any operations in RGB space, everything is done in YCbCr including noise addition. That being said, there's a plugin on Github[1] for a program called AviSynth that creates the "dot crawl" effect and nothing else. I might study it / use it in the future to achieve some interference between the signals. >There's all sorts of existing audio effects in various forms Agreed, there's still plenty of room for experimentation. One thing I discovered while playing in Audacity is that running an image through a low pass filter creates a "ghosting" effect, similar to 1910s-1920s video or extremely worn out VHS tapes. It's honestly quite interesting what you can do with images by processing them as audio! [1] https://github.com/rgm89git/dotcrawlplus
>>2779 >I tried that actually, but the results look bad and not like VHS at all. It must be something else... Hmm. By interpreting images as audio you're basically "unrolling" the data, so a 640x480 image becomes 307200x1, you end up losing a dimension which is why the operations are horizontal only. I can't think of an effective way around that, perhaps the horizontal and vertical passes need different parameters/effects? >there's a plugin on Github[1] for a program called AviSynth that creates the "dot crawl" effect and nothing else. Oh shit anon, looks like AviSynth might finally be available on Linux: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405506-avisynth-now-natively-supported-in-ubuntu-linux https://github.com/AviSynth/AviSynthPlus That opens up so many possibilities, a treasure trove of effects and filters people have written over the years. >running an image through a low pass filter creates a "ghosting" effect That is cool. IIRC this images as audio technique is used a lot by glitch artists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGIwcPA1_34 Nice to see retro raytracing being given some exposure. Maybe we'll see more people giving it a try?
>>2835 Nice! That's a stylish design. If you feel it's ready anon you should do a writeup on the effect, I think people will be very interested in having another option available to them.
>>2836 Thank you! >do a writeup I did write a draft explaining the process, you'll find it at the end of this post, but I don't think it'll be of much use to anyone. The process is still far from automated even with SoX doing the heavy lifting, it's barely usable as it is now for processing single images... A good alternative would be a proof-of-concept program, and as a matter of fact I'm currently writing one! It should be sufficiently automated as well as more accurate, so hopefully suitable for batch processing images or video frames. It's gonna take a while though, as some functions (e.g. color space conversion, noise generation) have to be implemented from scratch. I will post the program ITT when it's ready. Process draft: - Start with an RGB image that's 640 x 480. - Convert it to YCbCr BT.601 color space; for each pixel you'll get a Y value, Cb value, and Cr value. - Add noise to each of the Y/Cb/Cr channels, with a different seed for each channel. The noise should be at 1/2 resolution for the Y channel, and 1/4 resolution for the Cb/Cr channels. - Dump the raw Y/Cb/Cr values into three files; `y.raw` , `cb.raw` , `cr.raw` respectively. - Feed each file into SoX as raw unsigned 8-bit mono audio data, with a sample rate of 16k (any sample rate will do, just choose a large even number). - Resample `y.raw` to 1/2 sample rate (8k), and `cb.raw` and `cr.raw` to 1/4 sample rate (4k). - Resample all three files back up to the original sample rate (16k). - Convert the resampled Y/Cb/Cr values back to RGB. Notes: - The image is resampled row-by-row, so sharp vertical transitions in color will be preserved. You can work around this by slightly blurring the Cb/Cr channels in the vertical direction. - Since the Y/Cb/Cr channels are resampled separately there's zero interference between them i.e. no "rainbow artifacts" like in a real VHS. No workaround so far.
>>2838 >as a matter of fact I'm currently writing one! Sounds great! >some functions (e.g. color space conversion, noise generation) have to be implemented from scratch From a quick search it looks like ImageMagick has some color space facilities (it can definitely add noise plus various other filters) and has bindings in various languages. >channels are resampled separately there's zero interference between them Perhaps you could interweave the bytes, eg. y1,cb1,cr1,y2,cb2,cr2... then do a final resample from 48khz to 16khz and back to 48khz?
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mkvhs has been released! https://pastebin.com/zHWvmqye A proof-of-concept program implementing the VHS effect seen in >>2835 and >>2779, now refined and released into the public domain. mkvhs is configurable through a set of options, letting you fine-tune noise, blur, colors...etc by simply editing a few numbers. Vid related showcases multiple configurations. Instructions to get started + FAQ are available at the top of the source file linked above. The program runs in the terminal / command prompt, and seems to run faster than both Blender VHS and ntscQT. Hope you like it anons. >>2840 >ImageMagick has some color space facilities I couldn't figure out how to use them haha :-D It was for the best though, as implementing the color space conversions myself allowed me to replicate the "washed out" colors of VHS, something that was not possible in existing programs (e.g. GIMP). >Perhaps you could interweave the bytes Tried that, no bueno. I'll just leave it be for now.
>>2852 This is looking pretty impressive. It would be nice if it could supplant those godawful "VHS" effects people are always using in YouTube videos.
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>>2852 This is very cool, not too slow either, good job! My only initial suggestions are PNG support and a repo someplace to lure potential contributors (eg. Codeberg, Gitlab, Github). >allowed me to replicate the "washed out" colors of VHS Neato, looking at the options it looks quite flexible in general. >Tried that, no bueno Oh well, something will work eventually.
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>>2852 Loving it. Here's a test with a oldskool demo thing from /sp/ As for suggestions I second >>2854
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>>2852 Damn this is comfy as hell, amazing work anon. Can't believe how realistic it looks. >>2853 You know once this gets a little popular jewtubers will be all over it like flies on shit. >>2854 >My only initial suggestions are PNG support and a repo someplace to lure potential contributors Not OP but I've created my own fork of mkvhs and intend on adding PNG support soon-ish. If you have other suggestions post them ITT. My repo: https://git.creepercreep.fr/gillian885/mkvhs
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>>2856 Thanks for adding it, should reduce storage for video frames. >If you have other suggestions post them ITT Arbitrary resolutions would be nice, from a quick 240p test the processing seems to work fine as is.
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>>2852 It looks better than the alternatives but it still suffers from the same issue as the other VHS effects: you can clearly tell its fake. But tbf I dont think its possible to replicate the effect accurately without using a VCR. Webms related, Blade Runner 2049 recorded on a VHS
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>>2854 >>2855 >>2856 Deeply honored to see mkvhs being used by anons, and with such good results too! Thank you all for the encouragement. I see there's already a fork of the code as well, this is very exciting and also quite a relief haha. Writing mkvhs has been a massive undertaking for me and I wasn't planning on maintaining it long term, so I'm glad that others are hacking the code and bringing mkvhs closer to being a full-fledged program rather than a simple proof-of-concept. >>2857 Recreating the blue marble in POV-Ray I see! Looking forward to the final render. :-) >Arbitrary resolutions mkvhs already supports changing the resolution in the source file so this shouldn't be an issue, however you'll need to also change the other parameters to get consistent results. For example when scaling down to 240p you should reduce the blur strength and resampling ratios, while tuning the noise levels to not overpower the tiny image... Changing the resolution from the default of 640 x 480 should be avoided if possible as that is the standard resolution of most VHS rips, and all other parameters of the program are tuned to work best with it so the output is as authentic as possible. >>2858 >you can clearly tell its fake Sorry to hear. The effect is not perfect by any means but I think the idea behind it is the closest thus far to how a real VHS works; by processing video as a signal rather than a digital stream of pixels... I'm not an expert on signal processing, so my hope is that by releasing mkvhs publicly I could pique the interest of someone who is an expert and encourage development of something better. Pics related compare real VHS footage to mkvhs output. Original digital video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haXvp8M9Cog Real VHS transfer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7g2iNntRgQ
>>2858 >>2859 Looking at the tape version the main differences seem to be: Heavy interlacing artifacts Bloom Noise profile (is VHS noise gamma noise?) General sharpness Analog media can vary wildly of course which is part of the problem (think of tapes with various static or curling artifacts), the ideal solution would be to simulate an actual player/recorder circuit (for example: https://github.com/iaddis/metalnes ) but that's a much more complex undertaking.
I've had some thoughts about where to go with the VHS effect, let me know what you think anons: - We need a baseline reference to recreate, that is a specific content reel (from digital sources) recorded to a specific tape format by a specific tape deck which is then captured with a specific capture card using specific software and settings. VHS captures online can potentially be from endless variations of hardware and software, which means we end up chasing a constantly moving target. With a baseline we can at least implement something that's accurate to a particular setup. - Each execution of the program should be equivalent to a single tape generation, in theory if we get the first pass right then subsequent processing should be accurate also. - Each part of the effect should be totally separate and toggle-able, by implementing artifacts separately we could eventually have a collection of presets for different decks and tapes, covering a broader range of visual styles. I have a deck somewhere but I need to check if it can record, if anyone has the kind of hardware we need (in addition we need something to get the video onto the tape, something with composite out like a Raspberry Pi would probably do) then do say so.
>>2860 >Heavy interlacing artifacts Those are digital actually. AFAIK TVs automatically deinterlace 480i footage, and transfers to digital should deinterlace the video during/after capture, so you're not supposed to see any interlacing on a real VHS. >General sharpness VHS is surprisingly sharp provided the source is of high enough quality, but most people only remember second/third generation VHS and recorded news broadcasts which are blurry to begin with. That should be the goal look of digital VHS effects. >metalnes Holy mother of autism... Let's hope it doesn't come to this. >>2866 >We need a baseline reference to recreate, that is a specific content reel (from digital sources) recorded to a specific tape format Agreed 100%. Having a non-changing reference would facilitate the process considerably, even if the reference isn't perfect... Like the Blade Runner VHS posted in >>2859 >I have a deck somewhere but I need to check if it can record Please do check, and if possible record some reference footage. I recommend vid/pics related. >composite out Now that you mention it, I think composite does half the work. For example in these videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfDqZGjdS98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q7HpVfS13U a Dreamcast (digital source) is hooked through composite cable to a monitor and recorded for YouTube, and it already looks halfway similar to a VHS, dot crawl and all. Emulating composite video might be a step in the right direction... Food for thought.
So I dug out the deck and it is indeed a VCR, and as luck would have it there was a couple of blank tapes plus a DVC 100 too. Both seem to power on but I need the cables, also need a composite out device (looks like Raspberry's are still price jacked to shit so will research alternatives) but once I have those it's go time. >>2869 >I recommend vid/pics related I'll definitely include them, do you have the original link to the video? On the reel I was thinking of including the following at about a minute each: 1. Test cards 2. Nature video 3. Digipaint anime opening 4. 3D animation 5. 2D sprite game 6. 3D polygonal game Feel free to suggest anything else you think will be useful. >Emulating composite video might be a step in the right direction I'll capture just the composite out as well so we can do that (and differentiate between composite and VHS artifacts).
>>2873 >do you have the original link to the video? Those are actually multiple videos, the webm contains a named chapter for each clip. Just search up the name of the clip you want, they're almost all sourced from Flickr or Wikimedia. >On the reel I was thinking of including the following Solid list, just make sure all sources are 100% digital. >I'll capture just the composite out as well Perfect, thank you!
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Even without scripting the clock parameter still has its uses. Source: https://stuff.poxydoxy.com/u/fl2ysx.zip
>>2884 That's a pretty realistic Earth! Good job.
>>2885 Thanks, procedural textures are quite versatile.
I found a really cool website/art project made by what appears to be one guy. https://brawlersworld.com/
>>2888 Strong 2000s vibe, very cool!
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>>2888 >file format not allowed by the server IT'S A FUCKING MP4 Anyway, here's a video he uploaded recently, which is the reason I heard about him at all. >>2890 Yeah. I like the super secret deep lore on the character page for the junk robot, and the radial menu on the lefthand side. The page completely breaks if you make the window too narrow, and I can't remember the last time I saw something like that.
>>2891 >GT2 car menu lmao It's like an old GMod machinima, good stuff. >I can't remember the last time I saw something like that Not that uncommon for Neocities unfortunately lol.
>>2891 >IT'S A FUCKING MP4 It happens from time to time depending on how the file was encoded. Happens with MP3 to. >>2888 Really nice !
Some french guy made a retro PS1 like survival horror game recently : Projet Blari
>>2901 >direct link to twitter Use Nitter, dude. I don't care for the eurobeat music, but the visuals are pure metalheart, which I do like. >>2903 >le yellow wall backrooms meme I've seen a lot of "retro PS1" games that don't actually nail the aesthetic and instead just bury low-poly art under a load of filters, but this one looks a bit different and better. It looks like it probably controls a lot better than the average PS1 survival horror game, though.
>>2903 All these "low poly ps1 horror" indie trash are the same gen z bait (ffs it even has the liminal spaces shit lmao), it looks soulless as fuck. They completely miss what made those games great.
>>2901 This is more fitting for the Y2K thread: >>2221 The visuals are pretty much on point but I'm more interested in the style of music playing in the background, I missed it so much and they seem to have replicated it perfectly here.
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Been collecting sources for the reel and found something amusing. On a side note AviSynth+ is really good, here's the entire project file for vidrel: fps=30 length=10*fps start=33*fps end=start+length size=32 audioeng=FFAudioSource("YuGiOhIntro.mkv",track=2).AmplifyDB(17.7) audiolat=FFAudioSource("YuGiOhIntro.mkv",track=1).AmplifyDB(6.4) video=FFVideoSource("YuGiOhIntro.mkv").SeparateFields.Bob.ChangeFPS(30000,1001) videoeng=AudioDub(video,audioeng).Trim(start,end).Subtitle("English",size=size,align=2) videolat=AudioDub(video,audiolat).Trim(start,end).Subtitle("Latino",size=size,align=2) card=BlankClip(videolat).Subtitle(">tfw you can't afford an audio editor :^(",size=size,align=5,text_color=$00ff00).Trim(0,fps*5) Dissolve(videoeng,videolat,fps).FadeIn(fps) Dissolve(Last,card,fps/2).FadeOut(fps/2) Probably not a bad way to prototype the VHS effect before re-implementing in C.
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>>2852 30 minutes later and I got it working, finally.
gaze a pond this https://indigotrance.com/
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After more than a year since my last render I finally got back into POV-Ray and made "Escape", a little sci-fi horror scene. During production it was redesigned several times, almost entirely from scratch, before settling on the version seen here. Fun fact: the larvae in the tubes originally had hair! It was removed due to being barely visible in the final scene, but you can re-add it by changing one line in the larva file. ;-) As usual, the source files of the scene and an HD widescreen render are available to download for free on my website: https://grecomoran.neocities.org/
>>2961 Yo anon welcome back! Super cool scene, you really set the mood and those larvae look awesome!
>>2961 I'm glad to see some another piece from you. It's well composed, and the theme reminds me an area you'd see in a game from the 16-bit era.
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I just remembered that POV-Ray 2 (1993) is officially 30 years old in 2023! This ancient piece of software can be compiled and run on your machine today, with no modifications needed. Very few programs can last this long without collapsing under the weight of technical debt, mad props to developers who can write truly timeless software. >>2741 How's that Neocities coming anon? I'd love to see your renders archived somewhere. If you need help with the set up I can give you some tips. >>2962 >>2963 Thank you anons, glad you like it! >reminds me an area you'd see in a game from the 16-bit era. Interesting... I'm curious to know which games you're thinking of.
>>2965 >POV-Ray 2 (1993) is officially 30 years old in 2023! That's quite something, I'm sure the POV-Team didn't expect such an old version to still be in use all these years later! >How's that Neocities coming anon? I'd love to see your renders archived somewhere. It's coming along nicely, I'm working on the final few things for it at the moment, shouldn't be too far off launch. Archival wise my scenes are on archive.org so no worries there (I noticed you're still using regular file hosts by the way ;^)).
>>2965 >Interesting... I'm curious to know which games you're thinking of. Aero the Acro-Bat 2: https://youtu.be/OfFHx8NaA0k?t=96 Pac-Man 2: https://youtu.be/ndsB3vPR_Sg?t=4693 Maybe there are others, but those are what what come to mind for me.
>>2966 >my scenes are on archive.org Just found them: https://archive.org/details/19100-povray I went ahead and uploaded mine as well: https://archive.org/details/MoranRenders >you're still using regular file hosts Yes I'm using Catbox to host my scene files, it's been very reliable so far which is why I link to it on my website. I decided against linking to archive.org because it's often slow and sometimes goes down, understandably due to the insane amount of data and bandwidth it serves. >>2967 >those are what what come to mind for me Unexpected choices haha but I can definitely see the similarities. Adapting a scene from a 16-bit game into 3D would probably be a very good creative exercise, now that I think about it...
>>2968 Good find anon. >understandably due to the insane amount of data and bandwidth it serves. Yeah it's mainly a posterity thing since if anywhere is determined to be in it for the long haul it's The Internet Archive (and fortunately we're on the way lower end in terms of bandwidth compared to some of the stuff they serve).
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>>2968 >Unexpected choices haha but I can definitely see the similarities. I have soft spots for both of those games. I know a lot of people don't like it, but Pac-Man 2 is actually one of my favorite console games from that era. Pac-Man's not always interested in doing what you want, but it's fun to see his reactions to different situations. Or just making him miserable. It's packed with a lot of content for such a short game.
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Just launched my site, featuring updated renders (which you may have already seen) and more: https://19100.neocities.org/ Have a look around and let me know what you think anons!
>>2990 Good stuff. Somehow I didn't catch that you made that that orbit.gif animation before.
>>2990 Finally! Amazing work anon, and good job on the comfy theme. I enjoyed going through the gallery and reading the description for each render which I haven't read before, very interesting stuff. Also I'm deeply honored to be featured on your website, thank you. Good thing you got a button ready so I can link to you in the next update! You might want to apply for Neocities Neighborhoods like I did at https://neocities.org/site/neo-neighborhoods to help discoverability. I found this pretty clever: >Welcome to 19100, a void between the 20th and 21st centuries. That's pretty much what 2000-2001 felt for me in retrospect (pre-9/11), compared to the rest of the 2000s that is. A strange middle place between the futuristic hopeful 1990s and the nostalgic cynical 2000s. >there's 256,000 snowflakes! <snow.inc - 21 MB That's not how it's done haha, try a single plane facing the viewer with a falling snow texture: #declare Snowfall = texture { pigment { leopard turbulence .5 scale 1/16 color_map { [.75 color White filter 1] [.75 color White filter 0] } } finish {ambient .8 diffuse .2} } texture { pigment { bozo scale 1/8 color_map { [.99 color White filter 1] [.99 color White filter 0] } } finish {ambient .8 diffuse .2} } texture { pigment { bozo scale 1/8 color_map { [.999 color White filter 1] [.999 color White filter 0] } translate x*1000 } finish {ambient .8 diffuse .2} } This texture was copied straight from my HNY22 scene; all the snow inside the globe is nothing but a texture. It's efficient and looks convincing enough. I should really write the next part of Taming POV-Ray
>>2991 >>2993 Thank you anons, I'm glad you like it! >You might want to apply for Neocities Neighborhoods Sounds like a good idea, I'll be sure to do that. >try a single plane facing the viewer That's a much smarter way of doing it, I'll try it out next time I need some weather. >I should really write the next part of Taming POV-Ray Go for it, hopefully we'll eventually see more people giving POV-Ray a try.
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I got a tip on another '90s raytracer, called Rayshade: https://sourceforge.net/projects/rayshade/ It appears quite similar to POV-Ray, I wonder how they compare?
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>>3000 (nice digits) I managed to compile it but couldn't render any of the bundled scenes... However I found pic related on my PC.
>>3001 That's a useful comparison, of those other programs I found the source for... MTV: http://cd.textfiles.com/graphics16000/GENERAL/RAYTRACE/MTV/MTV.LHA RTrace (part of the Radiance suite): https://www.radiance-online.org/ >couldn't render any of the bundled scenes How odd, I'll have a look at it when I can.
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>>3001 I tried Rayshade and it seems to work OK with the command: rayshade scenefile -O outfile The file it spits out is an MTV image (the same format used by MTV ray tracer) which can be converted with ImageMagick: convert outfile outfile.png
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I honestly thought this was already posted. A Gex fan cartoon presented like a vhs transfer from Toon Disney. Animated by flippindingdong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0adoiAjyzw[Embed] Creative process here: https://twitter.com/FlippinDingDong/status/1535688501664043009
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Repostan. I
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When I posted these before I only picked certain angles becaus I felt that some were redundant but since I'm having to re up them I'm posting all because I can't remember exactly which ones I posted before. Enjoy
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That's all. Completely out of order from the last time. I'll wait to post anything new for a little while in case you want to restore posts or do formatting clean up.
Fellow Time Traveler (You)07/15/2023 (Sat) 22:57:39 No. 3220 >>3219 Alright. I'm going to paste some posts here that got deleted. I've decided to include filenames just so people can see exactly what was being responded to, and I'll include new post numbers in parentheses. If an image upload didn't have any text or replies, I'm not reposting it. Hopefully the formatting isn't too bad on these. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fellow Time Traveler 06/08/2023 (Thu) 19:44:28 No.3013 >>3007 That's some high effort shit, I admire the amount of dedication put into this. Also nice how a simple transfer to VHS is enough to make a video immediately retro. Fellow Time Traveler 07/01/2023 (Sat) 17:02:22 No.3048 (>>3204) >>3050 >>3057 Open file (262.02 KB 1920x1200rust-shake-1.jpg) Open file (249.03 KB 1920x1200rust-shake-2.jpg) Open file (301.56 KB 1920x1200rust-shake-5.jpg) Open file (166.89 KB 1920x1200rust-shake-8-2.jpg) Open file (567.44 KB 1920x1200rust-shake-6.jpg) I never did post these I just realized. I thought they were pretty neat. I wish they were real. Fellow Time Traveler 07/01/2023 (Sat) 17:22:21 No.3057 >>3058 >>3048 (>>3204) Pretty wild concepts, like 80s laptops but with 2000s futuristic aesthetic. Fellow Time Traveler 07/02/2023 (Sun) 04:58:07 No.3058 >>3057 Even real CLI-based computers from the '70s and '80s can seem futuristic to me in a way that much more powerful modern computers don't.
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Fellow Time Traveler 07/09/2023 (Sun) 06:15:41 No.3066 >>3067 Open file (3.14 MB 1920x1080dorf-2023-04-07T201735540Z.png) Have you guys seen this upcoming RTS game? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nMW35hGtBU[Embed] I think it looks promising. I recall a guy on an old RTS thread on /geimu/ posting his progress on an RTS game he was working on that I remember having this look (especially the checkerboard pattern on the smokestack on the right in this screenshot), so I think this is probably it. I plan on throwing a few shekels his way once it's out. I'd always wished strategy games had kept this look instead of going 3D, so this looks right up my alley. Fellow Time Traveler 07/09/2023 (Sun) 11:08:06 No.3067 >>3069 >>3066 Wow if that's a hobbyist effort, that's impressive. Thanks Anon! :) Fellow Time Traveler 07/09/2023 (Sun) 19:13:09 No.3069 >>3070 Open file (286.21 KB 1440x810dorf_6214142.jpg) >>3067 I just found this: http://8agdg.wikidot.com/dorf-rts It does look like it's a one-man operation according to this, since there's only one author listed in the wiki's Active Projects section. I forgot he was using the OpenRA engine, but I do remember him saying that the OpenRA people were helpful enough (which stood out to me due to the reputation that the guys running that project had in those threads). It's probably the most detailed OpenRA project I've ever seen. That's actually gotten anywhere, that is. This is the only one I know of that could possibly give it a run for its money, but it's on hold right now: https://www.moddb.com/mods/enigma-sc I'm not one to get my hopes up about things like this, but D.O.R.F. looks like it should be a good game. It might be the only Steam release coming up that interests me. Right now there's no release date given though. Fellow Time Traveler 07/09/2023 (Sun) 19:36:18 No.3070 >>3072 >>3069 Looks super-impressive. As long as he makes it fully open-source with a permissive license, I'll probably dig into studying his game to mimic something similar. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's all I'll post for now. I'll give people some time to see if they want to reupload anything before I continue. Regular posting is fine too. I'm glad I was able to save this stuff in time.
>>3219 You're doing good work Anon, thank you.
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I'm not entirely certain if that first should go here or not since it's the sort of synth/vapor kind of retro so feel free to move them to a more appropriate thread. It's a really neat concept though. The rest are some other game consoles that never were. The artist put some real work into these.
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Raiders get fucked, you can't stop these rays! Source: https://archive.org/download/19100-povray/invitation.zip
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>he just posted a new one Oh this one looks really neat. I really wish this was a real computer.
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I was already a fan of computer + pyramid aesthetics but this one just cuts out the middleman and makes the computer transform into a pyramid.
We should be all caught up after this post. Apologies for any formatting errors. Thanks for reuploading any missing images. I think we’re all set now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fellow Time Traveler 07/11/2023 (Tue) 00:00:12 No.3071 (>>3227) >>3079 Open file (2.94 MB 3508x2480f35e389aafba89809aaf68c0e2796d007c80d03fd27a05ee98e8d3d3304aca09.png) Open file (3.58 MB 3508x2480fd7893cab4667184730cc96a2ce364054d54765cef38bb9553d51301106b9362.png) Open file (3.58 MB 3508x248060469e8e4687b84156b22b078831807b7f7966d3f64123ede5c12ab509aae5c6.png) Open file (3.77 MB 4096x187219de6b969dc6b0d4d461142a60cdda171adf34a978f6c02a9edbe48f5ec52fc8.png) These are pretty neat. Fellow Time Traveler 07/11/2023 (Tue) 04:51:22 No.3072 >>3074 >>3070 (>>3222) OpenRA uses the GPL3 license. I know nothing about licenses, but I think that means any project using it legally has to release the source code. >>2888 The artist is having a merch drop on the 14th. https://nitter.lacontrevoie.fr/brawlersworld/status/1679237156462792706 >i plan on doing a full announcement video but just in case i dont get it done in time, here is a quick little post. >july 14th. store will be open for 10 days. pre-order based drop, so no need to worry about anything selling out. >and yes, there is international shipping, but beware! shirts and posters cost a lot to ship! it will be at your expense!!! thank youuuuu I don't normally buy physical merch but I'm considering one or two of the small posters. Fellow Time Traveler 07/13/2023 (Thu) 02:14:20 No.3074 >>3072 More or less; specifically, it means the owner of any project that includes or uses it as part of itself must provide the source code of that project on request, under the same or compatible license. Fellow Time Traveler 07/13/2023 (Thu) 22:24:03 No.3079 >>3080 Open file (226.45 KB 1599x2048絵を描くPETER(エヲカクペーター).jpg) >>3071 (>>3227) Found another. Fellow Time Traveler 07/14/2023 (Fri) 03:30:31 No.3080 >>3083 >>3079 (>>3227) Imagine how many floppies you would need for modern Adobe CS. Fellow Time Traveler 07/14/2023 (Fri) 16:04:01 No.3083 >>3080 It would depend whether they were just good old 3.5 floppies or if they were a new iteration. Floptical drives and media did exist for example as well as others that were pushing the size limitations of common floppies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_variants
>>3229 Pure bliss... The water and sky are out of this world, and all the colors fit perfectly together. Congrats on another fantastic scene anon! I'm surprised this renders on POV-Ray 2.x, I thought semicolons `;` weren't in use until the 3.x series was released.
>>3234 Wow, thank you so much anon! >I thought semicolons `;` weren't in use until the 3.x series was released. Interesting, mostly I've been using a mix of the 2.x & 3.x docs and it's worked out OK so far.
>>3231 That is really cool Anon. I'd love to have one of those brand-new.
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does it look like 2000s anime line up on [AS]
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>>3246 https://tofokyo.com I was just about to mention this guy. I absolutely adore the look of the site, and it's very authentic to the 2000s style. The only thing I don't like are the emojis in the page titles but that's a small thing.
If I were going to fix up early POV-Ray 3.x at some point would I be right in thinking that 3.1 is 3.0 but improved? Or are they different enough that they both have merits?
I've written a compilation guide for POV-Ray 2.2 if anyone finds it useful: https://19100.neocities.org/guides/povray2compilation
>>3229 I like the tropical theme. There's something about it for me that feels appropriate for these kinds of old-school renders.
>>3259 Thanks anon. I know what you mean, something about that tropics vibe that just feels right.
Here's some assorted ZX Spectrum artwork AND more importantly the drawing stages that I've been promising to post.
I'll try to post some ZX Gigascreen mode pics tomorrow since I'm way too tired to look at flashing .gifs tonight.
>>3254 Only way to find out is to read the "What's New" doc for 3.1: https://www.povray.org/ftp/pub/povray/Old-Versions/Official-3.1/whatsnew.txt >>3259 CGI water in general was huge in the 1990s and the early 2000s, I'm guessing due to transparency/refraction becoming easier to render or simulate with more powerful hardware. Almost every game I remember from that era had a beach level... Fun times. >>3257 Very informative, thank you anon. I like how clearly you explained the issue with RNG. >>3261 >the drawing stages Interesting... Where did you get those?
>>3265 >Only way to find out is to read the "What's New" doc Can't believe I missed that, thanks! Looks like having 3.0 around will be useful for a couple of deprecated features. >Very informative, thank you anon. Glad that I was able to explain things clearly.
>>3265 I found them on https://zxart.ee/eng/mainpage/ Not every pic has them but at least a few artists are good enough to post their process. Also I mentioned "Gigascreen mode" before as it turns out the moai pic is gigascreen and I didn't realize it. Gigascreen uses both persistence of vision and the latency of a CRT to composite two different graphics together to create colors and patterns that would be normally impossible for the ZX Spectrum. Important note these are going to have flashing images so if you're photosensitive don't click. Because we're all using LCD screens and are probably NTSC these gigascreen demos flash WAY more obviously and dramatically than they would on actual hardware. On a real Speccy with a real 80s TV it would, at most, seem to vibrate subtly. More to follow later since this one doesn't really illustrate the concept as well as it should.
I won't just flood the thread but as you can see the blending can be used to both subtle or dramatic effect. It can smooth out the typical blockieness of ZX art and it can give you some otherwise inaccessible colors.
Just found something interesting, POV-Ray 2's makefiles only specify basic optimization (-O), with -O2 you can get up to around 30 seconds of time saved for longer renders. Resulting files are checksum identical too so no issues there.
>>3273 Good tip, thanks anon.
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https://twitter.com/marc_acrylic/status/1688272514995073025 The animation isn't really it for me, but the post production effects present some potential to the pipeline of imitating 80s-90s anime or outsourced animation styles
>>2888 The BrawlersWorld guy made the official music video for a song by a Japanese musician. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7OowNUkT_U Pardon the direct link, but I don't feel like converting it to a smaller filesize right now. It's a neat video but the style isn't really for me.
>>3374 Cool to see Brawler getting work but I'm not feeling the style either, looks too modern I think (also are people really making portrait mode music videos now? WTF).
>>3384 I think its because they lack that pre-rendered look and go instead for the "low-poly/ps1" look
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I think I've pretty much reached the practical limits of this old i3. Source: https://archive.org/download/19100-povray/king.zip
>>3409 Beautiful lighting and colors, I've always wanted to make a bowling scene in POV-Ray. Excellent work anon!
>>3409 Looks pretty good, great job there.
>>3410 >>3411 Thanks anons, glad to get it out the door after so much rendering!
>>3409 Looks nice! that timing tho. :^)
>>3413 Oh shit you're right, didn't make the connection until now
Here's a really interesting ZX Spectrum image but I'm not sure if I understand how it exactly works. I've included the conversation below if anyone a Russian speaker. >abelenki09.09.2023 19:08 >hmm - Standard 6912. это как? и что значит палитра Electroscale? >breeze09.09.2023 19:45 >Врубаешь ч/б «Рекорд-312» и ловишь волну :) >abelenki09.09.2023 19:14 >забавно - вот как выглядит без палитры - http://lowtrucks.net/Forums/Pictures/ZXArt-EE-Grongy-BW.png >а как данную палитру (grayscale) можно использовать на реальном железе? >moroz199909.09.2023 19:43 >Потребуется старый черно-белый телевизор, скорее всего. >abelenki09.09.2023 19:58 >ясно. :D кстати, мой первый спекки вроде был Ленинград 48 (отец спаял) + крошечный ч/б телевизор (не помню >модель). и сним была кассета с Saboteur II. >ax3409.09.2023 22:48 >Ручку цветности у реального железа (телевизора кинескопного, например) покрутить. >ax3409.09.2023 21:45 >Можно сделать конверсию в ULA+, например, в оттенках синего/голубого. ax3409.09.2023 21:59 >Edit: >png: https://vk.com/s/v1/doc/QZleES9Tdj9MNq37MYE6XvwHIei4S21gdobyDS9t8UkIHcLX7P4 .scr: https://vk.com/s/v1/doc/iTLpRvtzDTko2wotbu7WIztl0UtPEIa7wklQjmh_STr_w1upmPw /.abelenki09.09.2023 22:03 >классно получилось!
>>3409 Nice neon lighting there. >>3451 That's a ZX Spectrum image? Holy crap.
>>3452 >That's a ZX Spectrum image? Holy crap. Yeah and I'm not really certain how it's done. As far as I can tell it's the only image on the Spectrum site that's tagged with "Electroscale" for the palette type. I'm not sure exactly what that means.
>>3454 Tried running it through DeepL, don't know anything about the Spectrum but it seems to have done a decent job: >abelenki09.09.2023 7:08 pm. >hmm - Standard 6912. is that how? and what does Electroscale palette mean? >breeze09.09.2023 19:45 >Turn on the b/w "Record-312" and catch a wave :) >abelenki09.09.09.2023 19:14 >funny - here's what it looks like without the palette - http://lowtrucks.net/Forums/Pictures/ZXArt-EE-Grongy-BW.png >and how can this palette (grayscale) be used on real hardware? >moroz199909.09.2023 19:43 pm. >It would require an old black and white TV, most likely. >abelenki09.09.09.2023 19:58 >clear. :D btw, my first speckki was a Leningrad 48 (my father soldered it together) + a tiny B&W TV (can't remember the model). and it had a Saboteur II cassette. >ax3409.09.2023 22:48 >Turn the color knob on a real iron (kinescope TV, for example). >ax3409.09.09.2023 21:45 >You can make a conversion to ULA+, for example, in shades of blue/cyan. ax3409.09.2023 21:59. >Edit: >png: https://vk.com/s/v1/doc/QZleES9Tdj9MNq37MYE6XvwHIei4S21gdobyDS9t8UkIHcLX7P4 .scr: https://vk.com/s/v1/doc/iTLpRvtzDTko2wotbu7WIztl0UtPEIa7wklQjmh_STr_w1upmPw /.abelenki09.09.2023 22:03 >classic turned out!
Does Iron Lung count?
Prior to 3.7 POV-Ray couldn't use multiple threads, or could it? https://19100.neocities.org/guides/povraymultiprocessing
>>3545 Good effort anon, however I strongly advise against using `dd` to manipulate images. `dd` is known as "disk destroyer" [1] for a good reason, users writing their first shell scripts should not use it... Image manipulation should be done using ImageMagick (IM) or GraphicsMagick (GM), which are widely available and easy to compile if needed. You can compile GM using nothing but a C compiler, without any libraries, and get a fully working program that manipulates TGA and GIF images. I wrote my own threaded povray script in 2021, and while it's not the cleanest nor the most elegant, I'm sharing it here with the hope that it will be useful to you: https://pastebin.com/eM9DWTyp TL;DR - Set all parameters at the top of the script, only take the POV file as input. - Create a temporary directory and stick to it. - Render the input file into 240x240 chunks, account for fractional chunks. Each rendered chunk contains the cropping information in the filename. - Use up to 16 processes at a time for rendering. Maintain 2 lists: started and finished processes. Infer how many processes are still running by comparing both lists. - Rendered chunks are partial images that cannot be read by IM/GM. Append zeros to the chunks [2] until they become complete images. - Using IM/GM, crop all chunks and stitch them together into the final image. [1] https://www.cloudnull.io/2011/12/dd-and-the-mighty-disk-destroyer-or-duplicator/ [2] To complete a partial image, simply tell POV-Ray to "continue rendering" it, but using a different (empty) scene as input so it renders instantly. The resulting image will contain the rendered chunk at the top while the rest is black.
>>3570 Thanks for the feedback anon. >I strongly advise against using `dd` to manipulate images. Yeah I'm aware of the risks with dd, ImageMagick would've been my first choice but I wanted to keep non-POSIX tools (other than POV-Ray of course) & features to a minimum for portability and unfortunately dd seems to be it for copying bytes around with the standard utils. I'll put a warning in the guide though so people know to be careful. >I wrote my own threaded povray script Nice, it's interesting to see your approach. >"continue rendering" it, but using a different (empty) scene as input so it renders instantly. That's a good trick, I hadn't thought of that!
>>3572 >I wanted to keep non-POSIX tools [...] to a minimum for portability In that case it's better to use `head`, `tail`, and `printf`: # stitch the top half of image1 to the bottom half of image2 (640 x 480) head -c $(( 18 + 460800 )) image1.tga > out.tga tail -c 460800 image2.tga >> out.tga # stitch three 640 x 160 chunks (no padding/margins) into one 640 x 480 image head -c 18 chunk1.tga > out.tga tail -c +19 chunk1.tga | head -c 307200 >> out.tga tail -c +19 chunk2.tga | head -c 307200 >> out.tga tail -c +19 chunk3.tga | head -c 307200 >> out.tga # given a width and height, write a TGA header to a new image W=640 ; H=480 WHI=`printf "%03o" $(( W / 256 ))` # width (high byte) WLO=`printf "%03o" $(( W - (W / 256 * 256) ))` # width (low byte) HHI=`printf "%03o" $(( H / 256 ))` # height (high byte) HLO=`printf "%03o" $(( H - (H / 256 * 256) ))` # height (low byte) HD1="\0000\0000\0002\0000\0000\0000\0000\0000\0000\0000\0000\0000" HD2="\0030\0040" printf "%b" "$HD1\0$WLO\0$WHI\0$HLO\0$HHI$HD2" > out.tga # fill the new image with white i=0 while [ $i -lt $(( W * H )) ]; do printf "%b" "\0377\0377\0377" >> out.tga i=$(( i + 1 )) done
>>3577 Whoa thanks, I reworked things to remove dd. The only limitation was that -c isn't part of POSIX head (https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/head.html ) but split can be used as a workaround.
>>3579 >The only limitation was that -c isn't part of POSIX head >split can be used as a workaround Good catch, I didn't think they'd add -c to `tail` but not `head`... I did some digging and found this tool as well: https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/od.html `od` splits binary files with great flexibility and outputs hex/octal format strings, which are then converted back to binary using `printf`. The only issue is that `printf` is quite slow, so only use it if `split`/`tail` aren't cutting it: # binary cut ($1 = input file, $2... = od args) bcut () { F1="$1"; shift; od -vAn -to1 $@ "$F1" | while read l; do for b in $l; do printf "%b" "\0$b"; done; done; } # write the header of a large image to a new file without splitting bcut image1.tga -N 18 > image2.tga Also worth considering is `xxd`, which is part of Vim. The entire program is in a single MIT-licensed C file: https://github.com/vim/vim/raw/master/src/xxd/xxd.c `xxd` operates almost exactly like `od` except it only uses the hex format, and is pretty darn fast. It can also be used to implement a "binary sed" that replaces arbitrary byte sequences in files.
>>3588 >Good catch, I didn't think they'd add -c to `tail` but not `head`... Some of the omissions in POSIX are really weird, it's easy to see why GNU et al. made so many extensions. >The only issue is that `printf` is quite slow That's too bad, still good to know though. >Also worth considering is `xxd` Oh yeah I've used it before for doing hex-to-binary conversions, very useful tool.
>>3545 >>3570 >>3572 >>3577 >>3579 >>3588 >>3589 Severe case of outside looking in here, but what can you use all this for? And can it still be used?
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>>3590 Hey anon, all of that stuff is about finding different ways to combine pieces of an image from the command-line, like a jigsaw puzzle. Old versions of the POV-Ray ray tracer don't take advantage of modern multi-core processors, which means rendering a scene can take much longer than it has to. For example, >>3409 took over 8 hours to complete. The solution is to run POV-Ray multiple times simultaneously, with each program rendering only a fraction of the scene. Each part of the image is a separate file though, so you need to stitch them together to get the final render. If you're interested in learning more, >>2203 is a good place to start.
>>3591 And this is how you would like to render A E S T H E T I C images?
>>3592 Yeah you can certainly do those kinds of things and it's a genuine tool from that time period too, the possibilities are basically endless.
>>3593 >>3593 I see. Well, seeing as graphic design is not my passion, are you open to this thread becoming a drawthread, with requests?
>>3594 If they fit the thread theme then post what you got anon, it would be cool to see more retro OC.
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Yo check this out, apparently POV-Ray 2 got an official book back in the day: https://annas-archive.gs/md5/168bd6205616d083897249a42dd92f37 https://archive.org/details/ray-tracing-creations-2-ed (included floppy) I wonder what kinds of neat tricks are in this?
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>>3604 Nice find! I took a quick look through the floppy and the first couple of chapters in the book, seems to be a good guide to using POV-Ray and creating basic scenes... Pics related are some of the included scenes.
>>3631 >seems to be a good guide to using POV-Ray and creating basic scenes Awesome, good to have yet another resource to point people to!
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CGI recreations of Rankin Bass/Stop Motion made by individual people & not studios Thoughts? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgZZRb_o-OM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-TJm7HkzkQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJBCuRsrqUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J1tqAaVXo8 Personally think worthikids is the best at this, because he loves Rankin Bass and it really comes out in the work
>>3644 Those look pretty good, although it would be nice if they were done for real, especially since even the big stop motion studios are relying so much on CGI these days.
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One last scene to end the year, I hope anon enjoys some festive cheer! Source: https://archive.org/download/19100-povray/snack.zip
>>3648 So cozy... Merry Christmas anon!
>>3648 Nice. Merry Christmas.
>>3648 Have you tired doing any animations?
>>3651 I made >>2884 as an experiment, unfortunately there's no concept of keyframes so everything has to move relative to the current timecode, it is something I'd like to explore more though and I have some ideas about how to overcome the limitations.

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