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Mêlée Strelok 10/20/2020 (Tue) 16:27:36 No.7658
A thread dedicated to close encounters of the bloody kind.
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When it comes to polearms meant for thrusting, is it better to have the blade's flat side parallel to the ground?
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>>7658 >going through all that gay LARP crap Either do it the WW1 way or the African way
So long as we agree on the hammer-axe-spear trinity then all is well.
>>7660 I think it's just important to have everything facing the same way consistently. The main benefit of having the flat parallel is that it makes it harder to parry the blow, and it tends to ensure the wound isn't as shallow since there's less slippage due to gravity when stabbing someone when your natural inclination is to let the weight pull the polearm down anyways (it's also probably why traditionally it's better to thrust with a downward motion). With something like a halberd though where the weight wouldn't be equally distributed anyways, it's probably better to just have consistency.
Also the Billhook's natural progression into the Guisarme is probably the most underrated technological evolution in polearms to have occurred as it naturally evolved from an English weapon to pull stupid French nobles off their horses to spear them into basically a can opener to pry them out of their armor (to do the same thing). You can directly see how it impacted the fauchard and halberd due to the sheer terror it likely caused in nobles who thought they were protected by expensive armor up until that point.
>>7665 English weapon English farming implement used as a weapon, let me rephrase that.
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Reminder that chain mail is easy to conceal even under your t-shirt and will render every blade obsolete. Won't protect from needles though, obviously. So invest in some good riveted chain mail. Avoid LARP crap and don't buy butted, ever.
>>7670 >Reminder that chain mail ... will render every blade obsolete. That's not actually true. Chainmail alone will not save you from blades. It'll prevent you from being cut, sure, but the force behind a blade's strike would still be high enough to wound or even break bone. Armor without proper trauma padding, such as a good gambesson, is next to useless.
>>7674 >the force behind a blade's strike would still be high enough to wound or even break bone. You're not going up against swords and spears anon, you are going against pussy fast stabs by drunk retards. They will hurt a little bit but they won't break shit.
>>7660 For thrusting specifically where the blade is facing is irrevalent. It only matters when you should be cognizant of catching weapons on the edge, setting the opponents weapons aside or slicing into someone once after a missed thrust. Having a halbert edge turned vertically is mostly useful for recovering from any action to chop down on top of something and horizontally to move things off center but big horizontal actions are unheard of in tight formations.
>>7675 I guess I just live in a more fucked up area than I thought. The last bar fight at my local hole involved some drunk putting his hand through a two-by-four in the wall because someone else insulted Dolly Parton, and this type of shit is common around here.
>>7694 That must have been one weak wood
>>7700 Judging by the motive it sounds like his area might just be real cornfed. Never underestimate drunken cornfed rage.
>>7700 Standard construction grade lumber. Fairly recently installed before that, too, since some dumbass decided to back his truck through the wall about two months before. t. the (former) repair man
>>7664 >>7679 And what about rifles with bayonets?
>>7706 >image Melee was on its last legs by the time bayonets were standard issue. They really lost their place after officers realized they could completely blow away cavalry by adding more rows of gunners and so there was a proliferation of massive rows of gunners to counter everything. I'm not well informed on their historical use but I'm sure they were really meant to shine in assymetric guerilla wars where ambushes with loaded rifles and fixed bayonets could be waiting for a column of rifleman or an artillery company to wander into bad terrain on route to their objective. A bayonet was more of a solution to the bigger question of logistics of a soldiers kit rather than a tactical gap.
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My everyday carry melee weapon is a steel tumbler full of piping hot coffee. Although I think it would be incredibly satisfying to smash a dude in the face with a ceramic mug, they just don't hold as much liquid or keep warm as long.
>>7706 The bayonet was the result of finding a cheap solution to wave tactics and a handful of suicidal generals who insisted on death marches long after rifling made death marches go from a logical consideration to a killing field. They saw some use in Vietnam/Korea due to jungles being hard to firebomb, but otherwise they were obsolete by about WWI when machine weaponry had improved enough to handle wave tactics.
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>>7708 >>7710 I know all too well that the bayonet is obsolete, but I'm still curious if it's better to have it fixed onto the rifle in such a way that it's parallel to the ground.
>>7711 Ideally you want either a "V" shape blade for a dedicated bayonet, third prong optional to help with gravitational pull and to follow the weight of the weapon. For a field variety that only gets used on certain conditions, knife style is fine since you're probably using it on entrenched soldiers.
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>>7662 >barbarian walks into the court Proper fighting weapons have a guards.
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>>7711 I'm still confused as to what youre asking. If youre bayonet is for stabbing all you should worry about is "is the point facing towards enemy?" and the weight of your rifle takes care of the rest. There is no other position you need to worry about beyond that unless there is a pitch fork style that ive never seen before. In which case the rifle would stay verticle and the fork be fixed perpendicular to it therefore horizontal to the ground relative to the width of the fork.
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>>7714 Pic 1 is in a right angle compared to the ground, pic 2 is vertical, assuming that you hold the rifle as in pic 3 and pic 4. Theoretically speaking pic 2 is better because it has an easier time penetrating between the ribs and slashing is also simpler. But I wonder if it has any basis in historical martial arts, or just something somebody come up with.
>>7716 Right. The frame of reference you use here is strange because it's more useful to focus on the angle made between the bayonet and the rifle as opposed to the ground. I doubt it has basis in history since traditionally thrusting was done with the edge in any direction that it could possibly turn so long as the point pieced the vitals and that was because it was a superior tactic to bind or cross edges with whatever weapon the other guy had so they couldnt kill you too. Most modern bayonet training is very 1 dimensional prefering the soldier to channel as much force into a single in and out offensive thrust or frenzy that I dont think small things like the angle of the edge going into the ribs would matter in the heat of a melee.
>>7703 >>7700 Construction grade shit is usually pine, so nothing special. All but the most atrophied retards could break it. Why do people even bother with crap like drywall when Oak and bricks are available? Bricks in socks make darn good melee weapons in a pinch too
>>7728 >All but the most atrophied retards could break it. Yes, but the point is that it takes roughly 128psi force to break a pine two-by-four, but it only takes 58psi force to break the human skull - the hardest bone in the body. Seeing as chainmail isn't capable of absorbing half of the kinetic energy of a strike, that still leaves someone wearing it and it alone vulnerable to drunken retards breaking their bones.
>>7723 >Most modern bayonet training is very 1 dimensional prefering the soldier to channel as much force into a single in and out offensive thrust or frenzy that I dont think small things like the angle of the edge going into the ribs would matter in the heat of a melee. Actually, that's exactly what makes me think that it would be better if the blade was horizontal, because it's more likely that you ˝accidentally˝ hit penetrate between the ribs if you barely have any idea what you are doing. But I'm actually thinking about it because I stumbled upon something interesting: the No. 7 bayonet and its mounting system. https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=koLHhT9wsyQ If you had the pommel swivel around the centreline, then you could mount the blade horizontally instead of vertically. In addition, the mount is on the very end of the bayonet, so it adds more length for the same blade length as other designs. And you could adapt it to any kind of blade and crossguard design. Now, again, bayonets are obsolete, but coming up with the ultimate bayonet design is still fun.
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>>7750 The simpler the better. Just twist the rifle on the way out and be done with it as opposed to relying so much on your technology to do the killing. Developing new ways to approach an old thing is fun but at some point you miss the point of what makes tried and true so satisfying. Excuse the fudd-like post.
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Any comparatively modern swords that are straight bladed with simple hilts beyond the British highlander sword with cross hilt equipped?
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>>7784 All that comes to mind are spadroons and maybe small swords if you believe you can call those things blades instead of spikes with hilts. When you get to the modern era the prominant differences in sword types are between hilts since you either have a long sidesword/rapier-like blade or some type of saber. The best thing the scotts could've done for their claymor was to give it an enclosed hilt.
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>>7787 How do you give a two handed sword an enclosed hilt?
>>7813 By making it big enough to grab it with two hands?
>>7813 You don't because there is no point. You're already wearing gauntlets
>>7813 My usage of claymore was lazy because that was my last post of the night. Claidheamh mor is the gaelic way to say "broad-sword" and is what I mean when I used claymore which is nowadays the exact word used in pop fiction to describe the William Wallace design or any large two handed straight sword. Claidheamh dà làimh is "two-handed sword" and what you're thinking I meant. Now as far as >>7816 is concerned I've never seen a fully enclosed one and doubt they were used on the battlefield much if they did exist for that reason. Gauntlets, however, were not compulsory to the kit of the soldiers around that time period (16th-17th century). I think how mercenaries and militia raised armies aquire their kits were through a mix of things passed down in their household, paid for out of their own pocket, or supplied to them out of local town armoury and that was bare minimum. Gear pillaged should go without saying, but the best armour is whats fitted to your body and not off of someone else. Most of those swordsmen were chosen for their high level of skill to be one of the only guys like that in a pike formation. They were probably skilled enough to keep their hands safe and gauntlets also meant less dexterity with your weapon which a dopplesoldner needed to be effective. Thats also one less piece of kit a soldier skilled in the melee has to worry about if they just have the protection installed onto their weapon. Gauntlets were most likely used more by the French who were shit swordsmen which was probably a consequence of them being overly relient on fully clad cavalry charges.
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>>7914 It's missing bisento.
Has anyone had experience with one of these before? It looks like it handles really well and seems to have a super solid rachet folding mechanism on top of its lithe and menacing aesthetics. Everytime I look at it my subconscious treats it as a loose embodiment of a snake or scorpion. What are some unique designs you Streloks are eyeing at including or are already apart of your knife collection?
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Considering how many layers of clothes an average soldier can wear in this day and age, I think it's not even a question that some kind of a stiletto would be the best combat knife. But could it work as a general purpose knife?
>>8704 >could it work as a general purpose knife If it can be used as a pry bar and as a cleaver then it should function as a decent GPK. The obvious answer for a stiletto is no, it is a toothpick murder weapon and if it were used for anything besides that you'ld compromise the blade geometry.
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>>8714 And would a gladius-like dagger work as a GPK?
>>8865 As long as it's wide enough. Take a simple bowie knife for example: you have a lot of mass in the spine of the blade which gives its only edge a lot of weight behind it when you chop in the only direction that matters, e.g. straight down. And a clipped point which is often long and tapered enough but can be as long as it needs to for puncturing vital organs. That design is the perfect GPK. A gladius on the other hand has its "spine" or core mass down its cross section which have only been really good for stabbing weapons because more mass in going in the direction you want something stabbed compounds the effect. The only solution would then be to make your "knife" into a sword or something heavy enough to be impractical for general activities.
>>8094 >Has anyone had experience with one of these before? The exact type of knife is also used in Italian Knife Fighting. There are videos about it on youtube.
>>10189 I've been looking into it off an on for a few week now, but mainly i'm looking for deeper insight into its handling characteristics that no one jewtube seems to want to go into, although i've been trying to avoid going through jewtube to begin with. I'm more interested in anecdotes and there are plenty of those documented in memoirs here and there that i've been coming across. The design seemed to become really popular around the 17th century with Portuguese, Spanish, French, Germanic and Italian culture which especially was fond of stabbing weapons. I might just buy a relatively cheap one somewhere off ebay like the third one from the top right of your image and figure it out myself.
Why were sabres better than spadroons? And are sabres the ultimate evolution of combat swords in an environment where nobody wears armour?
>>10709 Can't answer the first point, but I think sabers catching on more in the early modern period was due to their use with cavalry, not necessarily their terminal performance in ground fighting. I'd always assumed the best pointy melee weapon in an unarmored duel would be a rapier or some derivative.
>>10709 >Why were sabers better than spadroons? Why ask such a loaded question? Spadroons are practically sabers anyway but can give more gruesome stab wounds which makes it "better" and sabers that cut better than most spadroons (typically have blades with more mass at the point of percussion) do so because the curve creates a significant additional lever that makes the applied force in swinging the sword more efficient, i.e., more energy is delivered into the target. You could do the same thing with a flail and being better at what I just described is not making the user wholly better, which bleeds off into your next question: >And are sabres the ultimate evolution of combat swords in an environment where nobody wears armour? The most efficient way to cut is in a X, termed Cross Cutting by Cossacks, as a relevant example to mortal combat with the saber yet even regular clothing has potential to stop a cut from being immediately lethal where as penetrative force will break through virtually all stitching. It's just a matter of a thrust being less likely to disperse force than a cut over time. If the Italians are to be the historical model then the ultimate combat sword for armor-less sword fights is a complex hilted sword with a long rigid blade that tapers to a point. I don't think the side of the blade has anything to do with it either as Talhoffer prefaces his treatise on dagger with "Here they fight with the dagger, God preserve us all!? which is more or less paraphrasing the original writing, but being a fencing master he probably knew the implications of fighing with stabbing weapons were much more morbid than edged weapons.
>>10766 >I don't think the side of the blade has anything to do with it >side Meant size. Either I was cross eyed when I typed that or some browser extension that auto corrects was added while I wasn't looking.
>>10766 >Why ask such a loaded question? Because a post that since then disappeared said spadroons were glorified dress swords that proved to be inferior to sabres during the Napoleonic wars.
>>10709 This video is a good overview of what a spadroon is, and why it was loathed in it's last gasp of service. https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=9tgyvUnuhro I think in another video he suggested that after the Napoleonic wars aspects of the classic saber and spadroon were merged as an "infantry saber" was developed, but I don't know which video that would be.
>>10785 Ah, unfortunately I don't know much about the Napoleonic period, but if the horse tactics were predominantly to ride by while a formation wasn't looking and hit n' run then heavy cutting swords are ideal as thrusts are harder to retrieve at higher galloping speeds. That being said individual combat will have take place differently from group tactics and sabers were probably easier to teach parry and reposte/cut therefore easier to standardize.
>>7664 It depends on the type of blow. Predominantly one will be stabbing, and if it aids the motion, like most straight stabs with knives and swords where you don't turn your torso at all for any core power, you will tend to turn your hand, so there will be a change. I've never really dicked around with polearms, but from the look of them you probably would not rotate most of them and their blades would be vertical most of the time, especially on the ones that do not have good symmetry (i.e. halberds). >>7706 Rifles with bayonets should always be used in melee from the ready position where the buttstock is basically touching your hip or near it and the muzzle is slightly high (inverse of low ready). It is also called the ready carry in US manuals that are a bit older like the Guidebook for Marines in many editions. You always keep the blade vertical when thrusting simply because most guns are awkward to be held at all for melee and it is the least awkward way. The more advanced and experimental the gun features become (carbine/short anything/bullpup), the worse and worse it is with a bayonet, as a general rule. >>8865 Wide shapes are great for combat knives because they don't break off in bones as easily. [Do not forget to get your ass out and practice with anything you intend to use and be safe about it.] -t longtime professional killer
I've heard Pflug/Plow stance is defensive and poorly suited for offense because you can't make a proper attack from neutral. Is this true? Is it accurate to characterize wrathguard as lacking in defense besides its long reach? Any general pro/cons of other stances?
>>13160 While i don't think it is a good idea to conceptualize any guard as defensive or offensive people who hold their weapon low tend to raise it up to protect their head. Defense and offense is a matter of timing between who initiates the first attack and the reaction to it which is your attack/parry dichotomy. Guards are a comportment of the body that is necessary before any action, which may be offensive or defensive according to the tempo and more importantly do you have the presence of mind to, when it happens that you both attack at the same time, to strike in between the beats in their tempo to disrupting them and steal the initiative. You can do that from any guard and you don't need to have experience with a ridiculous amount of guards to do it consistently.
Are there any knives or daggers that have a crossguard not as a separate piece, but as part of the blade? What I have in mind is a full tang blade that is just a single forging, and the crossguard is made as part of the forging process, so that the blade just needs a bit of clean-up as a handle to be ready for use.
>>17122 i believe most stiletto daggers are forged in this way, though they are not mulitfunctional in most cases, but only meant for stabbing people in the back
>>17122 You can take a railroad spike heat it up and curve one end of it into a knuckle bow so long as theres enough of a business end to work with and it will be a lot sturdier than if you had to stretch the steel out in four different directions. Do you plan on making this yourself?
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>>17135 Indeed, all of them seems flimsy. >>17174 It's just a mental exercise to see what would be the simplest way to make a field knife. And the answer seems to be to forge the whole thing as one part and then apply a rubber grip the same way those Hogue grip sleeves are applied to pistols. Crossguards are obviously not a necessity, especially if we just want a puukko-like blade.
>>17178 >Grip sleeves Maybe easier to do, and maybe more comfortable, but consider rivetting a wood grip to it. It's easier to do maintenance on such grips, and it is a useful skill to have (rivetting that is).
>>17180 That's positively fantastic, but I'm planning to make a knife for myself, I'm thinking about how to produce millions on knives quickly but without sacrificing much.
>>17181 >but I'm planning to make a knife for myself I mean I'm not planning to make one for myself.
>>17181 >produce millions of knives quickly The other thing I hadn't thought of is making a mould you like then pouring the homogenous steel but the manpower and scarcity of material would be the biggest issue if you want millions. I think one of the top sword makersin the world, Albion, uses moulds and CNC machines.
>>17181 >Millions of knoifes Easiest way would be as >>17187 described. The CNC is to remove uneven surfaces and speed up the first 75% of the sharpening process, after which you would attach the handle (this could be automated for about $30k-$70k if you have electricity) and polish it (see above) before having it inspected (this can be automated with 80-99% accuracy for about $200k).
>>17181 What are you planning strelok? You can't beat the government with just a million chinks with knives.
>>17181 BIN THAT KNIFE, CITIZEN And BTW, if you witness a local vibrant on a knife rampage stabbing up the place, remember: do not defend yourself. Have a good day.
>>17187 Do you mean that they are casting the blades? I thought cast blades are inherently shitty. >>17220 I'm not planning that either, I just want to know if it's possible to make high quality knives for a total war scenario, where cost is not an issue, but you don't have time and manpower to spare.
>>17291 Hard question, this is normally something that a bureau of engineers works on, but I'll try: > Cost not an issue In that case, we can omit the recycling part, and use run off the mill tool steel in your specific flavor. Tool steel because it's the middle ground between stainless and carbon steel, so ideal for our purposes. As to how to it's done, we have to look at >No manpower or time to spare Full automatisation it is then. There's only so far you can go with that approach in real life, but as you said, when there's no cost problem, we can get crazy. Blade forging, sharpening and finishing can be automated, and with a head engineer for expensive quality control, it should be perfectly fine for your grunts, but assembly is tricky. Luckily, there's a solution for that: child labour! Just let the children, that are too young to fight effectively, assemble guns and knives for you. Tl;dr: yes, it is, in a perfect world like you described. It is cost intense to maintain a level of quality, but with no limit on cash/resources, it can be done.
>>17293 This is what I have in my head: >take a piece of hot steel >beat it into the shape of a knife with a forging machine >remove unneeded material, but make sure that you don't have to remove much in the first place >give it some kind of a coating to protect it from rust >put a rubber sleeve on the tang and call it a finished product What I'm really interested is that what blade forms this process would allow, and out of those which one is the best for a grunt.
>>17291 >I thought cast blades are inherently shitty. Not if they're redmetal blades. You still need to work harden them after casting though.
>>17291 >casting blades inherently shit Homogenous meaning no impurities with high carbon content poured into the mould of your choice. How do you think they get those thin slabs of tool steel to forge into a billet on Forged In Fire? So long as you have no impurities you're just trying to get a rough shape anyways before you any hardening to change the carbon content of the edge anyways.
>>17332 >>17338 Then with lost wax casting you could really speed up the process without losing any quality.
A place to discuss the pokey bits on the end of your shooter. Have they completely fallen into obsolescence at this point? If they have do you think that they'll ever become valid ans useful again at some point in the future and under what circumstances? Also post any strange and inventive bayonets or bayonet like devices because I love that strange shit.
I honestly don't know what went wrong with the first image.
>>18873 Seems images bigger than 3999x2999 get screwed. Also did any nation train bayonets as spears rather than thrusting knifes with a giant handle?
>>18874 >Also did any nation train bayonets as spears rather than thrusting knifes with a giant handle? My guess is that they didn't for the same reasons that was brought up in the fantasy weapons thread about gun hatchets. Bayonets are typical, if not almost always, directly attached to the barrel which means any stress that that you put on the bayonet would risk bending the barrel ad taking the whole gun out of commission, or at least affecting its performance. If bayonets were attached to the stock instead then that might be a different thing.
>>18871 Anon, we already have a thread dedicated to such things. It even has quite a few posts about bayonets. >>7658
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Is this kind of handle practical, or just an example of rule of cool making it into the battlefield?
>>21266 Depends on what you're doing. It's certainly going to slow down switching to your knife because you have to get your fingers in instead of just gripping it. But if you're starting out with it in hand, maybe with a pistol in your other hand, it's pretty good for trench warfare since it allows you to use the front, the side of the handle, and the back of the handle (nice spike) for combat in extremely cramped conditions. Problem being, most people aren't gonna have a knife as a main weapon, and if they have to switch from their main weapon, it better be instantaneous. Maybe for stormtroopers.
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>>21267 What makes me doubt this design is that a brass knuckle has this part part in the back that forces you to hold it in a specific way. And you are supposed to hold it in such a way that the brass is not actually in front if your own knuckles, otherwise the impact might injure your own fingers. Honestly, I'd like to see somebody actually punching things with that knife to see if it works as intended.

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