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Shooting Spree Defense Strelok 05/21/2020 (Thu) 16:35:48 No.586
We always get threads about spree shooters, but i'ld like to get a useful discussion going that doesn't end up being all about politics and beta faggot uprising memes. Something occured to me and that is these guys are typically open carrying long guns, usually AR platforms. Rarely do they use supressors, or a handgun/handguns in close quarters to kill a high number of people.If one of you were to get caught in the wake of one of these faggots temper tantrums how would you deal with the problem of being outgunned? There are lots of tactics we could discuss about how to neutralize or escape the threat before being mortally wounded. I personally feel morally obligated to close with the threat and gain a position that I could THEN draw my side arm and incapacitate or kill, then move on to the next objective. Why I decide to draw when i'm in position? A few reasons. 1) Avoid attention. If I appear as unthreatening as possible I can avoid attention while other people are looking for a guy with a gun to either avoid or pursue then i'll reduce the potential chaos I have to deal with. 2) Element of surprise. Again closing without posing a threat allows me time to gain a superior position, which is especially important when being outgunned. He may or may not target me with accurate fire, but the point is to reduce the odds as much as possible because he can't throw a rock and expect to hit every ant all at once. Some ants may make it easier by crowding around each other and the bigger the ant the more likely the rock will hit it, but smaller ants are less likely to be hit because they aren't as noticable. This is important psychologically too because most of these guys wont have to tranquility to rationally identify and react to a threat letting a harmless looking person get too close could be fatal for them. Are they accurate? Are they cocky? Do they need to reload? It isn't a simple yes or no and this is probably where the most danger is. 3) Self defense claim. There may be nothing to this, but I just thought if somehow I don't kill him and he latter presses charges. If I pop shot him from 20 meters with my pistol and it breaks his lower vertebrate effectively crippling his body and will to fight can he then survive and press charges against me for shooting him in the back? Might be less important or not depending on what laws govern your state and what (((lawyer))) he has. I apologize for a lack of sources to draw from as this isn't something I thought heavily about until now for reasons such as "I'll just draw faster, hur, magdump, hur, surpressive fire, durh" and my only real experience in fighting comes from Greco-Roman, old USSR style boxing, BJJ, free sparing in the army, HEMA and basic literature like The Art of War, or The Book of Five Rings. Hopefully now that i've posed this question you all could provide your resources and we could gain deeper insight from one another. Thoughts?
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>>586 Just remember the basics of CQC and you gonna be fine.
>>586 Everything you said is sound in every situation, but you fail to address the fact that threats are obvious in any situation as long as your observant. And when I say obvious, I mean you can see threats a mile away based on how they carry themselves and how they talk. You can basically do whatever the fuck you want as long as you're not the initial target with any shooting situation. In that regard, positioning while in public is the most important thing you can do. Don't sit by the entrance, don't sit at the bar, don't sit by the bathrooms or service area, pick a booth, choose corners of rooms, don't sit with your back to a door, if you have to wait somewhere put someone or something between you and obvious unimaginative shooter paths, don't spend more than 5-10 minutes in one spot in a store unless you have to, always observe people who approach you, always eavesdrop. Of course this all goes out the window with imaginative people. You can't stop an imaginative person.
>>586 If he hasn't brought body armor, being outgunned indoors is less of a problem since you can shoot at the relevant ranges just as well as he. You don't need a rifle for a classroom. In that case, I'd just try to get in a corner he can't see that well, like behind a door he'd have to get walk through, and shoot him in the back while he's busy removing normalfags. Really, that tactic wouldn't change with body armor, but it'd make it harder because hitting center mass wouldn't necessarily guarantee an incapacitation. In that case, switching to CQC might be prudent, assuming he doesn't just stand there with his head held really still for a prolonged period of time. Even a little training there is going to give you a major edge over an untrained person, assuming they aren't built like a Slav strongman. As for him suing you: If he looks like he might live, shoot him again, in the head that time. Dead men don't sue. Tell the police you were panicked and in fear for your life at the time. Nobody will want to prosecute the hero that stopped a spree shooting if the shooter isn't around any longer to do it himself. Bad press.
>>586 >3) Self defense claim. There may be nothing to this, but I just thought if somehow I don't kill him and he latter presses charges. If I pop shot him from 20 meters with my pistol and it breaks his lower vertebrate effectively crippling his body and will to fight can he then survive and press charges against me for shooting him in the back? Might be less important or not depending on what laws govern your state and what (((lawyer))) he has. As far as I understand the burgerland laws it's not about how effective you were it's about how legitimate your fear for your life/someone else's life was and how reasonable your actions were in that regard. So firing a gun at an active shooter is 100% fine unless you claim to have been trying to only wound him, as that's established to inherently mean you weren't afraid enough of your life to need to use lethal force.
The best defense is prevention. Most of America's culture is completely fucked so if you live in those places, save up some money and move.
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>>588 >And when I say obvious, I mean you can see threats a mile away based on how they carry themselves and how they talk. This is the part where you should give examples because i'll ask how DOES a threat walk and talk? "I'm gonna kill you" Is obvious, but how about the not so obvious? Things only become obvious when they have been learned and to top it off, what principles would you train around to REACT when at a disadvantage. That is to say you're reacting to someone with an already drawn weapon who may or may not see you as his first victim. As you said >You can't stop an imaginative person. Which is only half the truth, so i'll sort of agree because you aren't solving a problem here. If being imaginative is such a trump card then why wouldn't you start thinking of how to be just as ingenuitive yourself? >>589 In the army some war vets that went to Ramadi told me how body armor was saving doormen in the early part of the conflict, but that changed when insurgents would shoot t their pelvis and shatter it. They would fall down because they have no stable platform to stand erect. >I'd just try to get in a corner he can't see that well, like behind a door he'd have to get walk through, and shoot him in the back while he's busy removing normalfags. >Trapping yourself behind a door in a corner >I hope he doesn't peek behind the door first Wishful thinking is assuming you are smarter than your shooter who you don't know how long has been planning for an attack. A still target is a dead target. Also >sitching to CQC If you're in a classroom then you have already switched to "CQC" unless you meant Hand to Hand, which is different and possibly stupid to not use your gun in favor of trying to kill or disarmed someone who is using their gun with your bare hands. Unless you are a big guy. I can't remember where I put that webm of a combatives instructor teaching same armed forces from the Philippines. The only thing I agree totally with is >Dead men don't sue. But, then against does their family sue? >>594 Right. Assuming I did everything right to be in a position for a killshot then I shouldn't hesitate to take it, or give any commands or exposition before hand. 100% street meat.
>>647 >but how about the not so obvious? If you have to ask that question, you don't even know where to start. Any city in the US is a free training ground. >what principles would you train around to REACT when at a disadvantage. <hide and seek <water fights, airsoft, paintball <hunting The same old shit, except you aren't a hero, and who gives a shit if anyone else dies. >If being imaginative is such a trump card then why wouldn't you start thinking of how to be just as ingenuitive yourself? <you can obtain the skill of precog You can't treat everyone like an imaginative asshole because most aren't, and you would be frozen by the expanse of possibilities if you did. >muh you lack imagination You can't improve your position if your opponent has planned for your existence.
>>586 Nice OP, thanks. Cover and concealment in my experience are my first instinct, though like you I also feel obligated to close with. Also, always shoot-to-kill if you're going to shoot at all is my advice. Shooting in the leg or something is just asking for trouble.
>>647 >Right. Assuming I did everything right to be in a position for a killshot then I shouldn't hesitate to take it, or give any commands or exposition before hand. 100% street meat. Not a lawyer, just telling you what I've seen and read.
>>647 Hey, the door tactic nearly worked against Tarrant. I've never seen a shooter shoot into corners before entering a room, and if he pokes his head in, you could already shoot before he can check if there's an ambush, or at least you have a 50/50 chance of him checking the other side of the door first. You'd hear him coming due to him shooting normalfags left and right, it'd be easy to figure out where he is and when he's coming. You'd be ready and likely faster than him.
>>651 >Any city in the US is a free training ground. I think i'm catching what you're pitching. All I need now is a crime fighting costume and a vigilante nickname. Hide and seek could be fun too if I had any friends to play with. Suppose all that leaves is hunting. >you aren't a hero, and who gives a shit if anyone else dies. I never implied that I was trying to be a crime fighter nor a paranoid sociopath. If i'm not being clear look to the OP again for examples, for example, I could run, hide, or fight. Prioritizing my life first I choose to act in line of thinking without preference for either one of those three options. If I was immortal with bullet proof skin then I would walk straight at them and eat them alive until they die or give up. Since I am mortal I don't think I would realistically do something like that. I was simply saying fight fire with fire. They can plan, so can you. They can be imaginative, so can you. >precog My opponent can plan for my EXISTENCE. If i'm taking that literally that is precog, yet you sarcastically a falliciously claim that i'm suggesting you use precog, while believing my opponent can plan for my EXISTENCE? It's. Very. Simple. Using statistics in your favor is not precog. Since you're making it difficult to break down your method i'm just going to assume you don't really have a firm grasp of it yourself. So, i'll try to break down my method of planning when training my body and mind. >Have a PERFECT vision >Have Goals to achieve vision >Be WILLING to sacrifice to achieve goals >Use resources to mitigate risk >Develop a skillset >Adapt to change Make it as simple or complex as you would like. >>659 I get that. You just used the classroom environment as your example and I'm not certain if I had the chance that I would hide behind a door if I knew someone could be ready to shoot me through the door once he had saw me. They still could effectively run from you back through the doorway as you peel the edge of the door simultaneously shooting through it. You've also blinded yourself on top of reducing the options you have to survive. I'm trying to point out trading mobility for concealment is a hard pass for me unless it's a metal door. As an immediate action in some circumstances I would be fine with it if I could time my actions in a way that beats him, or like you say be faster. In tarrant's case i'm pretty sure the guy that tackled him saw that he was coming first so he was sure of his attack knocking him off balance, but he failed in the end.
>>651 >You can't improve your position if your opponent has planned for your existence. >implying your opponents is an infallible god
>>586 >Thoughts? I think escape is more important than stopping the Spree Killer, no good deed goes unpunished and most Spree Killers are some bozos set up to serve a political narrative. You kill the Killer, you piss on the party these people have planned and they might use the system to get revenge on you, even if not, its possible that some cunt in office gets butthurt that you hurt a brownskinned betterhuman during his cultural enrichment of society and she will waste her limited power to shit up your life. Unless yourself, family or friends(friends as in people who you know won't stab you in the back) are threatened, there is no point in saving the bluepilled cattlepeople that are the common target of Spree Killers. Less of them might even be better for yourself and the country. We don't live in a society, society today is a scam and doesn't exist anymore, 90% of the people out there aren't your kin. If you fail in stopping the Spree Killer the possibility of you reproducing and creating non-cattlepeople will be gone. Pay attention to your environment and the people in it, learn to read people and always have an escape plan. That is the best defense. Only if your escape is cut off should you use force to neutralize whatever or whoever threatens your escape. Might be the Spree Killer, might be cattlepeople.
>This is the part where you should give examples because i'll ask how DOES a threat walk and talk? I'd like to say eyes are the window to the soul, as well as a long ass beard. It's the small details usually, anyone who wears sunglasses inside is usually a huge red flag (If they aren't obviously blind). >>647 One thing I haven't noticed is how to keep track of your exits and the situation. You want a mental map of the room the second you enter, and know where all the exits are with the major cover (not concealment, cover) in the area. If you want to be paranoid, do a regular visual check on the exits and note anyone that looks suspicious (eg; colombine tier idiot with a trenchcoat and a bag going to the front of the stage or the bathroom? might want to book it) and mentally note their movements. Also, remember what event are you going to, the chance of a gangland shooting isn't likely at a vegas concert. False flag by the sauds? Much more likely . The strelok at >>662 did a pretty good job summing up the "How do I improve" part of it applicable to life in general. One of the biggest things I learned is most people look down, but not up. Las vegas shooter got away with it because people couldn't pinpoint the source of fire. If he was on level ground people would run away from him. Most this info comes from a family member who was a bodyguard, information may be inaccurate since it's been almost 20 years but I think the underlying concepts are unchanged You are just straight up fucked usually if you run into mcveigh or Andrew Kehoe (Bath Consolidated School massacre) types. The latter man spent the time to plant hidden explosives throughout the school and had access, very hard to pin these types down before they act unless they ramble to some fuck who then tips the ayys.
>>647 >This is the part where you should give examples because i'll ask how DOES a threat walk and talk? Miller, R: Meditations on Violence is a really good book about it.
>>742 >I think escape is more important than stopping the Spree Killer Best advice in the thread. Fire fights aren't games and if you can avoid one then you should. It doesn't matter who else dies as long as you can escape as long as none of your family are in the line of fire. By drawing a gun in a situation like that you risk making yourself a target of someone else doing the same thing as you. You end up getting shot by another larper while the gun man continues to chew through people. If police get involved you're likely to be dropped on the spot and potentially give the killer the drop on them too. >>662 The reason you can't stop an imaginative person in the same reason you want to be punching and not blocking. It's impossible to catch 100% of the attacks that come your way, but if you're the one attacking you don't need to worry about blocking. You're leading the dance and the other guy must respond to you and only has to screw up once to get killed. If you MUST engage then you want it to be an ambush scenario where you're pulling the trigger before you're even spotted. And if you can you want to get a clear shot in the head. Body armour is easy to get hold of and people forward planning will wear it. You only get one chance and he has to die or you will. It's not a movie where you trade shots.
>>789 When checking people out go with your gut instinct, if your gut is telling you "he's a predator" then he's a predator. Even if you suffer from some sort of anxiety there's a difference in seeing someone dangerous and being anxious. Go on youtube and watch some videos on CWC, KingCobraJFS and Jahans. Your gut will tell you something is off about them, they come across as unhinged and revolting. If you sense that IRL, get away from the person doing it. It's a kind of training to recognise your evolutionary respond to unstable people.
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>>1341 >if your gut is telling you "he's a predator" then he's a predator >It's a kind of training to recognise your evolutionary respond to unstable people. Very true. I've never read it but I remember being recommended "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker, which is about this. It's worth noting that this doesn't work the other way. An absence of gut feeling or a "trustworthy feeling" doesn't verify that someone is OK because some predators are very good at imitating and jamming the fear mechanisms we use. It's an intraspecies evolutionary arms race.
I have lived in several warzones, and I can tell you how I survived. >Tl;DR >carry a red herring identifying you as a member of a neutral group >if an attack is in progress, don't make yourself a priority target >be near an exit >if in the vicinity of at attacker immediately interrupt the attack without becoming a threat >don't be somewhere that is likely to be attacked to begin with Firstly you should identify as a non-target, you never know who will be targeted and in random attacks collateral damage is generally accepted by the attackers. A random person is collateral- by identifying as a non-target you will likely not be targeted at all and will often be allowed to just walk right out of there. Who is a non-target? The most common non-targets are women and children, culturally significant occupations (doctors, priests, bakers, postmen) On one occasion I just pointed at the tools of my trade and the door and the attackers allowed me to leave. They were looking for enemies, and might attack random bystanders- but a identifiable and familiar person is immediately a non-target. "I just work here", "I'm a doctor", wearing identifying uniforms, carrying tools etc. You would be surprised how far you can get just walking through places carrying hand tool, asking for directions and acting oblivious. Secondly blend into the background, before and after an attack. If you can't run then don't move, movement is the largest factor in target identification and anyone running is likely to be shot at by anyone under stress. In most attacks you are simply a bystander- and if you just freeze you will likely remain one. On several occasions I have been witness to an armed robbery and simply continued doing what I was doing in slow motion and didn't make eye contact- then ten seconds later it was all over and I carried on my day. Third is exits. Forget about being close to cover, immediately after an attack the first casualties will be in proximity to the attacker, the second will be those unable to exit, the third will be those taking cover in the immediate vicinity. Basically you know where the exits are and are ready to walk through them is something smells wrong. Maybe ten seconds later you walk back in and say you were smoking or taking a call- who cares. If someone shady walks in, I just walk out. As soon as someone is entering they are exposed to everyone inside, you can push out literally right past an attacker and they are likely to let you pass instead of fucking up their entry Fourth is immediate vicinity. If an attacker is about to kick off and you're withing meters of them exiting probably isn't an option and you are too close to be a bystander. Even if you try to run the exit is likely to be obstructed by other people fleeing or concentrated fire from an attacker/secondary. The key is interruption- don't wait for what you know is going to happen. On one occasion someone came into a room armed and I immediately took two steps towards them and nudged them to one side while they were still scanning, apologized and walked out. The dude had no idea who I was or what just happened, and everyone was looking at him; and I was gone- instant spaghetti and the dude 360'd out of there. The secret is moving against the attacker without appearing hostile- even if you point at the guy and ask him what color the moon is and start laughing, the more psyched up people are the easier they are to confuse. First everyone looks at you and you walk out; then they look at the attacker who is suddenly forgets he's a jihadi and is suddenly the looser who turns up at a party alone in a three piece suit. Alternately you could try to 007 technique of using momentary surprise to get in range of an attacker, but they are likely so hyped up that the first one to touch them might get done first. Fifth is about location/time. Just don't be places that are likely to be targeted, and places where mass casualties are likely (if you can't identify more than one exit you should already be very aware of this). Places where identifiable groups gather are much more likely to be targeted because terrorists are interested in impact not casualty count. A strong factor in this is the number of people present. If terrorists could attack 30 people on a bus and kill 27, or attack a stadium with 300 people and kill 15 you bet they will attack the stadium.
>>1752 Interesting post. The bus thing seems off to me. There's countless stories of nogs attacking people on buses but very few in stadiums. Markets get hit by terrorists often as well. Conflicts with some of what you've said. Maybe the warzones you lived in are different to the ones we're having appear around us. Or maybe you're a larper.
>>1763 It's a massive LARP- what you have identified are the differences between "terrorism" and an actual warzone. A "market" is very different to a western supermarket, and has a lot of cultural significance. One important factor is that they are usually run by local authorities/mafias- to attack a bazaar shows that the local authorities are not in control. Another factor is that the sellers are typically from all over the region, often every village sends someone to sell their vegetables or buy goods- unlike a supermarket to attack a bazaar you will often effect literally every village in the region. An outcome important in it's own right is that it impoverishes isolated farmers/homesteaders who without income are rapidly radicalized. Being open only some days they are social spaces, and one of the only opportunities for women to socialize- men rapidly gain power in society if women cannot leave the home. So you can see why Jihadis might see street markets in europe as an attractive target: "lets blow up the Bazaar in Germany". Ramming attacks are really just low effort VBIED attacks- Europe should have recognized the risks much sooner. These attacks I would typify as territorial retaliation- they are an attack an outsider commits somewhere else as payback. Attacks on public transport have always been a feature of terrorism, because by targeting the public transport networks you have an unexpected dynamic- you bring the average citizens much closer to the states security forces. When train stations are full of uniformed police with guns people feel unsafe; and will rapidly conflate their fear with the security forces themselves because the security procedures make them feel targeted by the state. These targets often call for suicide attacks and cause widespread civil disruption. Attacking public transports instantly makes you very unpopular with just about everyone, and are often related to anti-social domestic terrorists and seen in combination there is a very good probability of false flags. Strong potential for attacks to disrupt events like elections, public holidays, protests, seasonal migrations. I would broadly class these as destabilization attacks This is going to be the thing in China- just wait for it. Wuhan was actually an attack on China's train network over the new year migration, expect more attacks in different forms with the same aim. But this is terrorism, not war. In a war zone trade becomes de-centeralized to avoid creating targets, people trade door to door and travel individually at night. As with the IRA militias will commit massacres on public transport in other forces area of control, generally after a protracted negotiation people move in convoys to avoid attack, often during holy days- you even see this in ganglands in the US where children have to move in convoys to schools or on sunday
>>1800 >travel individually at night Now I know you're full of shit. That's the complete opposite of how someone survives in any sort of warzone or collapse
>>1802 How would you do it? I figure you would either travel in civilian convoys during the day or make a series of short hops individually at night from building to building- sure you would attract fire but if you needed to leave an area and traveling during ceasefires wasn't an option what else could you do
>>1823 >>1802 Being completely fair with the guy and taking into consideration he was in Bosnia: Civilian convoys and going around in groups on plain daylight was, at times, a sureway to get redirected and instagibbed by wandering militias or shell volleys.
>>1823 At night in a small group is how others describe surviving in hostile territory. Traveling alone is a death sentence and having 2-3 guys covers your ass. The first thing any group shoots is a lone man. >>1831 You don't move in the day unless it's something you're forced too do.
>>1836 It really varies by situation, all the options come with tradeoffs. A group is easier to detect or identify for instance, so splitting up can make sense, or maybe they'll just slow you down. Bushwhacking through mountains at night is risky and lights will give you away. In a chaotic situations there are no hard and fast rules to rely on.
https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=CbAqbxPItTE Maybe this video could get some discussion going back into this thread. What do Streloks think of this method?
>>742 This is very important. Don't forget Port Arthur. You may think you're facing some mk ultra tard when really it's some Tier 1 operator and the tard is just the fall guy.
>>2384 To add to that composition many children nowadays are getting supplied with personal laptops for their courses. Would a laptop and the necessary books be sufficient impromptu defense all things considered?
>>2394 for pistol caliber, yes. Not for rifle.
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>>2384 >>2394 What if they don't shoot you in the book bag? What happens if they shoot you where you don't have a book bag? Get's the old noggin' joggin.
>>2960 >What if they don't shoot you in the plate carrier? What happens if they shoot you where you don't have a plate carrier? It's almost like a book bag is a more socially acceptable low profile and stripped down plate carrier that sacrifices some protection (one side protection only) for weight savings.

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