/k/ - Weapons, Combat, Outdoorsmanship


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Strelok 08/16/2021 (Mon) 11:24:17 No.18245
whats best vehicle for SHTF? everyone says don't get a tank because they need so much fuel and you'll never need that much firepower, but how about an APC? should it be wheeled or tracked? or would you rather have a boat? and, if you can't get your vehicle of choice and have to make do with an ordinary car, what modifications should you make to it? what do you think, strelok?
>>18245 Unironically, a fucking bicycle. It takes no fuel, it's easy to hide, makes almost zero noise, a good bike can traverse every terrain, and replacement parts are ubiquitous. Also, you can do emergency repairs even for vital parts quite easily, which makes it a great choice. And even if you need motorized transport, you can niggerrig on a motor. Having a large vehicle as a base of operations is not sustainable for long. You cannot reliably do agriculture inside of a vehicle, and would need to rely on scavenging to provide food (and fuel) for yourself and your group. If you really want to use a vehicle that relies on fuel, and not on electricity or leg work, you need to go really big for it to be worthwhile. A big diesel engine is a must, as biodiesel can be quite easily and reliably be made from waste oil, or fresh oil for that matter. This is for nomad lifestyle, as having anything giant or very small is good for that. If you have a static base of operations, you can afford to keep a few medium sized vehicles around for patrol and scavenging runs. Again, diesel is you friend, as it's easily procured, and very simple to make.
>>18252 >...a good bike can traverse every terrain If it's a modern road or mountain bike. You need thick tires if you want to drive on loose sandy underground and suspension is a must if you want to drive over uneven roads. However these types of bikes are usually not made for transporting much beyond a person, so you either have to modify them or carry everything on your person. Most bicycles also hate it if you put more than 150kg onto them. >...and replacement parts are ubiquitous. This Strelok doesn't know about the bicycle replacement parts mafia. Bicycles have changed a lot in the past decades and because of that certain parts for bicycles that are only 30-20 years old aren't produced anymore and you can only get them used. I had bicycle shops refuse to repair my bicycles, because they could not get the replacement parts from their suppliers or the repair was so laborious that you could buy a new bicycle for the price they demanded. So in any SHTF situation you have to hope to find abandoned bicycles of the right type and then cannibalize them. >Also, you can do emergency repairs even for vital parts quite easily,... Centering a wheel because one or more spokes have broken is a pain in then ass without a proper workshop. Old biscyles have an internal bottom bracket, they are strong as fuck and need next to no maintenance, but if they break you have to hammer them out of the frame and hammer a new one in. Depending on your bicycle model you have to remove the breaks before you can change the tire on the wheels, so you need the skill to disassemble and reassemble your breaks or you fuck up your bicycle more.
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>>18245 Depends on your local terrain. In a SHTF scenario, I'm off into the deep mountains on foot because that gives me the most flexibility and I've spent a fair amount of time up there. Though, maybe a pack goat or a donkey could also work, but goats are extremely prone to fucking off at random, and donkeys need relatively nice terrain.
A bicycle or a donkey are your best bets barring strange circumstances. If you're upgrading, you could get a motorcycle or four-wheeler light vehicle since the fuel efficiency is fairly good, but gasoline only stays good for about 2-3 months, and even with stabilizer it doesn't run good, just "this probably won't kill me?" after the 6 month mark.
honda ct110 or other similar bikes. cheap, all terrain, super easy to repair, pretty good fuel economy. whats not to love? learn your engine to feed it not gasoline and you can just keep using it. strap some saddle bags to it and you can load it pretty decent too. ive also seen some fucking rednecks feed their trucks alcohol and vegetable oil and it run. it would be pretty practical to have something like that. >>18261 >>18264 these are also both right answers.
>>18261 >>18264 >goats, donkeys Why not the superior Mongolian horse?
>>18270 >In a SHTF scenario, I'm off into the deep mountains on foot because that gives me the most flexibility why not a Yak?
>>18274 Yak dies of fucking heatstroke in most of the mountainous US probably. Alpaca might be a good one in the Rockies, unfortunately Appalachia is too humid.
>>18270 Horses don't into mountains. They break their legs really easily if their footing is unsteady, and mountains are short of steady footing.
I'd think it's a good idea to see what suitable pack animals run wild in your region. Some places have wild populations of donkeys, horses, goats, etc, that excel in their respective regions. An interesting question would be, where do you get started on taming these feral ones in the event that you didn't stock up on over 9000 horses and goats before SHTF?
>>18306 >Taming You don't. Except if you live anywhere in Mongolia, Russia or the middle East. >Horses Eat shit Tons, but really good for hauling ass. Also require a good amount of care. Don't think only about food, you also need to brush them to keep the skin healthy, cut their hooves, nail on appropriate horseshoes, etc. >Goats Also need care, but have the added benefit of providing milk, and being good for meat and fur. I prefer sheep though. All in all, you need to care for animals just as much as you need for motorized vehicles, but fuel acquisition (food) is easier. On the other hand, caring for animals is more of a medical job, as you're working with a living being, so settling down and simply living a rural life is a better option than being nomadic. But I don't know your intentions, so just go ahead and think about it, there's no rush.
>>18305 >Horses don't into mountains. The only German units that are still using horses are the Gebirgsjägers(mountain troops) and they use Haflinger horses and Mules to carry their gear into the mountains. They are also used by the Austrian Bundesherr and the Italian Army. The Swiss army even uses regular horses since even they are much faster in the alpine terrain than most vehicles.
>>18252 >>18261 aren't you worried about protection? plus the mobility to travel country to country and state to state would be important for staying sane and getting information and resources. as for fuel being hard to get if you aren't a warlord or in the service of one, I thought that was what we were all going for anyway
>best beasts of burden I've got one word. Elephants.
>>18329 >b-but you can't take the elephants into the mountains! that's insane, they'll never survive
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>>18360 The extinction of the woolly mammoth has been a disaster for the human race.
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>>18409 >You will never live in a hut made mammoth bones, tusks and furskin feels bad
>>18530 F for Mammoth Huts
>>18530 >>18560 I think the prehistoric South Americans use to do the same think with glyptodon shells. I wish someone would Jurassic Park some glyptos. I've always loved those things.
>>18563 >no megatherium cavalry Why is life so unfair?
>>18530 Akshyually some scientists got a huge grant to splice frozen mammoth DNA into asian elephants to repopulate the tundra last month.
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Guess it depends on where you are living. Man has always used animals for support, and those living in a region may fit there best probably? Better go for what is common in the region, and better train early with them. wikipedia, epicentre of truth and unbiased info, on pack animals: >Maximum load for a camel is roughly 300 kg.[13] Yaks are loaded differently according to region. >In Sichuan, packs of 165 pounds (75 kg) is carried for 30 km in 6 hours. >In Qinghai, at 4100 m altitude, up to 660 pounds (300 kg) are routinely carried, >up to 860 pounds (390 kg) is carried by heaviest steers for short periods.[14] (differs much, but for how long is it possible for them? What exactly is a short period? About 220 pounds / 100 kg seem okay though.) Loads for equids are disputed. US Army specifies maximum of 20 percent of body weight >for mules walking up to 20 miles a day in mountains, giving a load of up to 200 pounds (91 kg). >However an 1867 text mentioned a load of up to 800 pounds (360 kg). >In India, prevention of cruelty rules limit mules to 440 pounds (200 kg), ponies to 154 pounds (70 kg).[16] Llamas can carry roughly a quarter of their body weight, >an adult male llama of 440 pounds (200 kg) can carry some 110 pounds (50 kg).[15] >Reindeer can carry up to 40 kg for a prolonged period in mountains.[17] >In the 21st century, special forces received guidance on use of horses, mules, llamas, camels, dogs, elephants as pack animals. (link to manual https anonfiles.com/T3icq3Ncu1/FM_3-05.213-31-27_SF_use_Pack_Animals_pdf) I checked what the german wp said, after all in Central Europe they use horses in alpine areas: >camel - up to 250 kg; 35 km/day, dromedary - 150 kg; 50 km/day >horse - up to 150 kg; 30 km/day (ponies or young horses way less?) >cattle - up to 100 kg (probably steer/ox only) >ass/donkey - up to 90 kg; 25 km/day >alpaca - up to 50 kg; 25 km/day (like llama, above?) >dog - up to 15 kg packs. Checked the pack goat too, b/c I got interested: >healthy and fit pack goat can carry up to 25 percent of its weight, walk up to 12 miles/day >depending on its load weight, the terrain, and the animal's conditioning.[3] according to german wp: >pack goat can carry up to 30 kg or max 25 percent of its weight for several kilometers.[2] >goats are good for transporting small loads especially in mountainous areas. >there they reach an average speed of 2 to 3 km per hour (is 1 to 2 mph) on trips over many days. There you have it: > dog 15 kg > goat 30 kg > reindeer 40 kg > llama/alpaca 50 kg > pony 70 kg > donkey 90 kg > longhorn/mule 100+ kg > horsie/dromedary 150 kg > sandnigger mustang 250 kg >>19740 Thought I've read about that too, but forgot where. They found quite some over the years. Only if scientists are able to compensate for any degeneration of the genome that may have occured, not sure. It's def not Ju Park, that's exactly the problem. Sauce? Also: >b-but you can't clone mammoths out of elephants to go up mountains! that's insane, they'll never survive b/c our climate's warming up!!!
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Streloks, wouldn't the best vehicle for SHTF be some kind of boat? Think about it. Why would you spend all of your time traveling on wheels or on the back of a beast when they require a lot of resources to keep them fueled and maintained? A beast needs discipline, food and water. The beast may get sick and die without these things, then there goes your mode of transportation, up in flames. A motor vehicle needs tools, after market parts, oil/fluids and fuel you can only get reliably from a fuel pump. All of those things are going to be sought after by others making it more likely you'll come into contact with strangers and it becoming increasingly dangerous to own if SHTF. For any length of time you spend trying to nomad it in nomans land is just as bad as if you went out to sea expecting to survive just off of the fish there until you reach the next continent. You're at the mercy of the terrain which means you're slow and have to be a distance runner off of a bottom feeder's diet so you'll either die, have to make a plan to traverse the most inefficient secluded routes of travel just to go from one popuplation center to another, or live close enough to important resources to sustain your animal/automobile which defeats the purpose of avoiding people to begin with. You might as well travel on foot, however a boat has many advantages such as: >Can find everything you need to make it at a home depot >Motor, Sail or Paddle gives three simple modes of potential energy to power your boat >Can be made robust to the elements with proper insulating layers >Floats when it floods >Wont die of hunger So, we know now that a boat has many advantages and none of the disadvantages of the vehicles for travel mentioned in this thread or most of the advantages outweight the disadvantages very heavily. The best part about it is if you make it right you can live off of it and ride along nature's goldilocks zone where animals are plentiful to eat and you may meet the occational pirate or two but you should already have properly prepared counter measures for those foolish enough to mess with a /k/ marked vessel notionally of course I'ld expect none of you faggots to reveal your power levels so openly if SHTF. Thoughts?
>>19804 >wouldn't the best vehicle for SHTF be some kind of boat? maybe perhaps depends on the exact type of fan and what sort of shit is impacting it. plus not everyone is near open bodies of water. >A motor vehicle needs tools, after market parts, oil/fluids and fuel you can only get reliably from a fuel pump. Exact same thing can be said for boats too, no? Boat maintenance is a bitch and expensive in the best of times, just about any boat owner will tell you that. Especially so if you're in salt water. Don't forget about the weather too, all the boats you posted are river boats essentially, when the waves pick up they 're going to be death traps. Never mind all the coastal hazards and possibly pirates. >Can find everything you need to make it at a home depot hmm maybe all those crooked ass 2x4s they got might be good for something after all! For a reliable mode of land transport don't forget the good ole bicycle.
Honestly, I myself don't even worry about stuff like that anymore. Transportation implies that you have to get somewhere fast, and that implies that something you really need is not nearby. If shtf, I would reduce myself to the basic necessities of food, water, and shelter. The former two can be foraged, hunted, planted, you name it. The latter can, in its most basic principle, be built from mud and sticks. If I need transport for moving large amounts of stuff, I'll build a hand cart. If I need personal transport for fast travel, I'll take my bike.
>>19804 In an apocalypse boats/submarines are superior, but if there is any sort of functional government forces (read: hostiles) still around, they are going to make life very difficult very fast for you on a boat.
>>19804 because those things are very easy to tip over and weapons that get salt water on them get rusty and near inoperatable if not fully disassebled and cleaned in timely matter. >>19814 in Mao's "on gurellia war" rivers along with mountains are the places that are optimal for bases. They will find it hard to find you in a shallow water inlet. Traveling is much more dangerous than staying in place in a defenceable. take for example castles that nobody wanted to imvade anyways since it was located so far in the mountains away from any stratigic area but next to a spring and plentiful wildlife to subsist on.
>>19808 >not everyone is near open bodies of water. The point i'm trying to make is unlike the highway or a well beaten path through landlocked nowhere a river can provide you smooth transportation a lot closer to resource abundant locations with the right vessel and you can go as far as the coastline on some water ways. >Exact same thing can be said for boats too, no? Yes, I was only pointing out that a boat will bring you to wildlife and natural resources because you're either going to be on fresh water or on salt water but you'll still be able to get fish from both with the right tools. This is a topic i'ld like to look into so I can start building a boat that will suit my needs. Maintenance of a simple boat made from wood with a motor if you're making it a lifelong investment can persist a lot longer than automobiles can. Having to replace a tire on a truck or bike puts that mode of transportation ineffective for any long distance. At that point i'ld rather drop anchor and float if my boat motor dies. Generally the more moving parts you have in device the morr that can go wrong and when SHTF those machine parts may not be easy to come by. >hmm maybe all those crooked ass 2x4s they got might be good for something after all! I'ld be willing to make an ugly duckling work so long as it floats well. >>19814 That would be my biggest concern. Trying to run and hide or sneak past government navys is a big problem I wouldn't have an answer to. Maybe learning to trick sonar somehow would be the solution but I lack a basic understanding of how modern sonar works. Is there any advantage that weather might give to accomplish this? >>19820 The higgins was just the first example of a small water vessel I saw with machine gun turrets. My first idea was really some sort of lightweight claw that could gyroscopically stabilize a small arms caliber rifles with anchor points on different corners of the boat.
>>19842 >acoustics It's quite a bit of physics. Wave propigation and hydroacoustics are key here, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the following: https://man.fas.org/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm https://man.fas.org/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/uw_acous/uw_acous.htm https://man.fas.org/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/propagat/Propagat.htm https://man.fas.org/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/asw_sys/asw_sys.htm https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=215407 The issue with acoustics is that most of the stuff is passive stuff, so unless you make no noise, it'll register. And you will always make noise. Main sound from subs is friction from the water and the cavitation of propellers blades - there are low pressure areas behind the blades that generate bubbles which pop causing noise. That's why they've got plastic tiles, and main systems are vibration isolated for the hull. As with that, depending on your SNP gradient and local conditions (Convergence, Surface duct, bottom bounce, sound channels), you could theoretically hide under the critical angle of reflection. The three areas most likely to hide are at the bottom of the ocean, near the top (surface duct), and in the isothermal sound channel. Surface zones are not always viable because you can use thermal imaging to see subs underwater up to around 40 meters (140 feet ish) supposedly new tech goes to 75 meters, alongside day/night/seasonal variations. Sound duct isn't always viable because it is not always present. and bottoming out isn't viable if there's a bottom bounce (esp if its rocky) OR if its too deep. In addition, if the aircraft has MAD (Magnetic anomaly detectors) you're shit outa luck if they do a flyby and notice the MAD signature fluctuate from the regular earth background noise. The most deadly weapon against subs is a helo or dedicated ASW plane. For passive sonar, your best bet is to make your SNR ratio extremely low, since usually they focus on certain specific "bands" of waves that are constant (like propeller pitch, or engine noise). For example, bands above 1000 Hz range are basically guaranteed to be manmade. Because lower frequencies tend to propagate further, usually the first contact you'll see is a <100HZ band (The Russians are notorious for a 50Hz band on their subs). For example, the Soviet 670 project (Charlie I) has a band ID of 50, 235, 325, 868, 1719, the French Améthyste (Rebuild of the Rubis series) has a band ID of 60, 250, 325, 1142,1839. You also have to take into consideration, that surface vessels conducting ASW are usually at a disadvantage due to the surface noise vs a sub (but they get helos). Sonar washout is also an issue (the Russians again, are notorious for this). Washout speed for sonars vary, but a ship traveling at 10-15kts is usually going to have a hard time with ASW in rough seas. Theoretically speaking, some sort of stirling engine would probably reduce noise pretty decently. Maybe mix it with the liquid ox cells that the Sweeds/Germans use. Also, use a snorkel because fucking radar is a thing. >how to counter sonar For passive, Stormy seas are your friend, alongside certain oceans (Baltic, arctic oceans versus the relatively still Mediterranean/ Pacific/US gulf coast), knowing your geography, and slow running. For active? Hope you have a sound channel, or they are moving so fast they can't hear you above sound to noise ratio.
>>19740 If I recall, that idea's been floating around for a long time. I remember at a point someone was gonna do this and make a shows on the Discovery Channel called "Raising the Mammoth," but it never happened, and instead they kinda copped out by making a documentary with the same name about what that process might look like instead.
>>19842 When I mean tip it over I mean the cause could be anything. Many boats have the center of gravity in such a way that once it is tipped over it is going down. and even those special ones where it is naturally want to stay upright is still going to get water where you don't want it to go.
>>19842 Depends on the specific area. On the pacific coast I don't think boats make much sense for SHTF. The rivers tend to be fast moving, with rapids, rocks and inevitably flush you out into the ocean, or perhaps one of the few lakes. Generally they'll move you toward the coastal population centers - opposite of what you want for SHTF. Plus the storms can be real nasty out on the coast. Fish is also not really a constant here either, outside the seasonal salmon runs there's not much unless it's a lake. However if the pros outweigh the cons for you go for it, good luck. you'll need it >Having to replace a tire on a truck or bike puts that mode of transportation ineffective for any long distance. Truck yes true, bike no. Inner tubes can be repaired easily and you can carry replacements they are light and compact. Bikes are super easy to maintain, minimal tools are needed, literally kids are capable of basic maintenance. >Trying to run and hide or sneak past government navys is a big problem I wouldn't have an answer to. Maybe learning to trick sonar somehow would be the solution... Heed your own advice and keep-it-simple-stupid. Praying for favorable weather conditions to evade a technologically superior foe while sitting on the open water like a duck? Might work, I guess?
>>19811 honestly this is the correct answer

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