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Tank/afv thread Strelok 05/21/2020 (Thu) 08:20:08 No.561
A discussion thread about the most powerfull land vehicles and it's derivatives. Prototypes, historical, modern just needs to be an afv.
>>42426 >dropped nigger loader >auto-turret >get rid of turbine engine So far so good >replace with hybrid electrical/diesel For fuck sake. Energy storage is still not there. >goes from 70+ tons to 60 tons >implying it is even possible
>>43694 >For fuck sake. Energy storage is still not there. I don't see the problem as long as it only has a battery that can go maybe a few kilometres. Electric motors can deliver a lot of torque nearly instantly, and that is perfect for a tank to roll up from cover for a few shots and the roll back, and in that case having a small battery is better than wasting fuel with an idling motor. Then if the battery starts running low or the tank goes any significant distance the engine kicks to spin up a generator that directly powers the motors. And as a bonus that will also charge up the battery. Of course, it's also possible to make a system where the engine can directly power the threads at higher speeds, but in that case you also need a transmission on top of the generator, and I'm not sure if the additional weight and complexity and costs make that a worthwhile addition.
>>43700 Of course, there is a good way to utilize the technology. Will climate obsessed burgers go for it, or will they create what amounts to tesla tank? Dunno but if they fuck up, they will fuck up there. The marketing materials boast of same range as the turbine variant, which is rather unimpressive especially at supposed weight reduction. Thats what makes me worried.
>>43480 Yes u already know of those modifications when I said “T-84” I meant that and all the modifications/models
>>37999 >>38020 >>38028 the T-12 and the D-10 of the T-55 use different ammunition that is not interchangeable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdPmpidUbWo MPF is a nice tank. In the future we will see much more >light tanks, simply because ERA and APS systems allow them to have comparable level of protection to MBTs,while having lower logistical footprint and being able to pass through bridges lol
Honestly, I'm slowly convincing myself that a tank with a 155mm main gun makes sense, because if the current conflict in Ukraine is how a major mechanized war looks like in this age, then artillery is all. Something like this: >electric drive with either multiple smaller generators distributed in the hull, or one big engine at the front, the point is to leave a big empty space at the back >said big empty space is for a big magazine where the shells and charges stand vertically >there is also a secondary magazine for rapid fire at the back of the turret, the shells and charges in this one lay horizontally (behind each other) facing towards the breech >there is also a robotic arm or something similar in front of the main magazine, below the turret >the breech of the gun can be depressed under the turret basket for some very high elevation, preferably up to 90 degrees, because why not make it also a SPAAG if we are doing this anyway When the tank fights as a tank should on paper the secondary magazine is used, in this case the gun drops into a specific elevation so that the rammer of the secondary magazine has an easier job. If the secondary magazine is exhausted, then the robotic arm can pick up charges and shells from the main magazine, and with its own fancy bi-directional rammer shove them into the secondary magazine. And if a commander decides that even tanks should partake in artillery duels, then the roboarm can use its aforementioned rammer to load a shell followed by the desired amount of charges into the gun directly from the main magazine. Moreover, it should be able to load the gun at any angle, so that you can do that nice trick of having a bunch of shells impact at the same time. Of course, the two main drawbacks seem to be the size and weight involved with a 155mm howitzer and shells, and the reduced performance compared to a smoothbore gun against armour. I'm no engineer, so all I can say about the first one is that the South Africans apparently managed to make a turret with the G5 howitzer that fits on a T-72, and the Germans put the Panzerhaubitze 2000's turret on the back of an M270, so maybe it is possible to overcome it if you throw enough engineers and money on the problem. As for the rifling, it seems to be somehow overblown, but again, I'm not particularly knowledgable about artillery and tank guns either.
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Also, this magnificent blog seems to be active again: https://below-the-turret-ring.com/
>>47299 Just take something like Msta and give it MTB level armor with best APS you can get and use it as an assault gun. I'm not even kidding, you won't need anything else since 152mm HE shell is enough to knock out any MBT with a frontal hit to gun mantle. Blast will perforate thin roof and snap the neck of the tank by killing the driver , knock out any optics and pretty much ensure mission kill 99% of the time. And 152mm tends to delete large chuncks of building when it hits too. If it preforms good, upgrade the 203mm Pion to be direct fire assault gun too for extra 'tism. I'm sure it would be expensive, complex and heavy as fuck, but fuck it, it sounds fun. Let's go full Imperial Guard aesthetics.
>wanted to talk about oscillating turrets >see that the discussion already happened in 2021 Fug.
>>47562 Just reply to one of those posts with something and it happen again.
>>47562 Dude you can still talk about oscilating turrets there is no problem
>>47562 >want to talk about castles >see that the discussion already happened in 3000 BC
Is there such a thing as an AP-HEAT? Basically a traditional AP shell with some explosives inside, except that said explosives form a HEAT warhead, so if the shell fails to penetrate the HEAT jet might still get through. And if the shell does manage to penetrate, then the warhead going off inside might cause quite a bit of extra damage.
>>49431 There's no such thing. What you are describing sounds like some weird mutation of APCB shells where instead of an explosive filler they have a miniaturised HEAT mechanism. There's a few problems with that. 1. Even regular APHE shells had high fuze failures. The impact against thick armor was so great that the fuze mechanism was destroyed before it could ignite the explosive filling. Sometimes even when the fuze did work, the shell was so shattered that the explosive pressure was significantly weaker than the designers intended. These problems were pretty much impossible to solve, it's inherently a limitation that comes with full-caliber shell designs. So countries replaced it with superior APDS shells. So, for your idea let's assume that the fuze is flawless and that the shell doesn't get sheared in pieces. Alright, but that still leaves us with a few problems. 2. Penetrating armor requires A LOT of dense material. That does not leave us much room for an explosive cavity unless we make the shells so big that they could be confused for naval artillery munitions. So even in an absolute best case scenario, you'd have to fit a HEAT mechanism inside a cavity that is barely the size of a rifle grenade. 3. Such a small HEAT charge would not offer adequate penetration capabilities. You'd be looking at about 50mm of armor at most. 4. The performance of the jet is greatly reduced by spinning. HEAT projectiles are designed to be stabilised during flight and prevent spinning motion. But a regular AP shell would have to spin in order to be stabilised, so your tiny little shaped charge inside would unavoidably lose some effectiveness.
>>49431 If it’s supposed to work as HEAT this time, it should go off quickly upon touching the target, but if it’s supposed to work as AP-HE, it should go off when already inside. So it must detonate at different delays depending on whether the tip penetrated or failed. Which is nuts even compared to the rest of the problems. Other than that… Compared to AP-HE, its explosion would be weaker, because instead of being wrapped in a good solid bomb shell, the charge has that fancy foil-lined imploding cavity as its front surface, and it has less HE to begin with due to this empty volume. Compared to a pure HEAT shell, the charge would be also smaller, and placed behind the shell’s dense penetrating tip, through which the jet must burn before it can reach anything else. So it would smash through thin screens easily, but then… effectively give the target an armor layer on its own. Compare to tandem HEAT, in which mass in the first jet scatters at hypersonic speed and does not obstruct the second jet. A HEAT charge is more fragile than plain solid HE, but using it as AP-HE requires working properly after a hard impact, whether the tip penetrated or not. Thus, against a target its tip penetrates, AP-HEAT would be like a weaker AP-HE, and against a tougher target, like a much weaker HEAT. This hybrid would be less reliable and more expensive than either. So there’s no point to do it. Also, as >>49458 pointed out, optimal conditions for kinetic penetration and HEAT or HESH are incompatible. Which is why all 3 solutions that replaced AP-HE are optimized for a single effect, not hybridized.
>>49458 >>49484 So it's just as retarded as I expected. A similar question: with these fancy modern greases and lubricants, could you make an APFSDS projectile for rifled guns where the sabot is rotated by the rifling, but the rotation barely imparts any force on the projectile itself? I know the French did something similar for their 105mm HEAT shells, but that used ball bearings if I recall correctly, and it didn't have a sabot.
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>>47304 >I'm sure it would be expensive, complex and heavy as fuck, but fuck it, it sounds fun. https://below-the-turret-ring.com/artillery/boxer-rch-155-demonstrates-mrsi-and-fire-on-the-move-capabilities/ I'm not so sure about that, at this rate a fucking jeep will be able to carry a 155mm gun. >Let's go full Imperial Guard aesthetics. Something like a smaller Macharius that has no weapons in the hull, and only one main gun in the turret would be kino. Alas, by now it's pretty much a fact of life that the best hull for a tank is a box with front armour, and the only place for aesthetics is the turret. And even then, modern turrets are boring.
>>50113 >a tank is a box with front armour, I mean, with angled front armour.
>>49606 >could you make an APFSDS projectile for rifled guns where the sabot is rotated by the rifling, but the rotation barely imparts any force on the projectile itself? I'm not sure if you're asking whether we can make APFSDS for rifles barrels or whether we can make them rotate the sabot itself for some reason. If it's the first one, these already exist. If it's the second, why would you want the sabot to spin? It absolutely must not.
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>>561 >the most powerfull land vehicles The poor man's air force would like a word
>>51208 Hold up, the sabot doesn't spin if it is fired from a rifled barrel?
The future will be one man tank with layered era on top of other era block and aps. It willhave an automated oscilating turret with autoloader. It will mount 155mm cannon miniaturized to fit 105mm calliber, two 40 mm autocannons and 2d20 ATGMS ductaped to the front. The turret will be able to move on a crane arm to shoot behind corners.
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>>50113 What about slapping something like short barreled GAU-8 on tank chassis? Terminator proved to be effective infantry support vehicles, and that's with only two linked 30mm cannons. Imagine if you could make something like an APC with GAU8 and MBT armor. Something like this sketch.
>>51261 Shit, human scale is off, was supposed to be somewhat smaller.
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>>51261 Nah you want something with: >autocannon capable of high elevation and switching between ammo types quickly >(guided) mortar for indirect fire (infantry scale, not artillery) >ATGMs >APS >possibly fuck off levels of armor You really could not mount GAU-8 or equivalent in a way which makes it capable of rising to hit rooftops of buildings. Plus ammo would run out too fast.
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Now that I think about it that design would be a stopgap behind light tanks with 105mm cannons with indirect fire capabilites.
>>51288 Isn't that kind of what the Russians were doing with some of their BTR upgrades, but with an automatic grenade launcher instead of a mortar, and without APS and fuck off levels of armour?
>>51340 Yes. Also Bradley, kinda. It is pretty logical thing to do. It could only be better if in far, far future we get cheap as shit rockets with specialized loadouts which can be switched quickly like in Battletech. Then that would reign supreme since the ability to drop smoke, mines, destroy buildings, threaten armor and just burn shit down in one, single weapon system with indirect, guided fire capability is just too good to pass on. >and without APS and fuck off levels of armour? APS is still a new technology, it will still take some time for it to become widespread. I dont think it has even been properly battle tested on the battlefields of Ukraine yet. Armor is just a Terminator solution, since baseline t-72 chassis is very well armored and most of its kills come from ammo explosions, at that of extra ammo stored improperly outside of the loader ring. The turret design basically removes its greatest weakness, though the loadout is something which could easilly be put on an IFV. Which most likely will be, eventually. It is an experimental platform after all. But they seriously need to just find a way for the main gun to switch between ammo types on the fly the 2nd one is retarded cope, waste of tonnage. You could replace armor requirement with transport capacity, probably. I am not an expert on urban warfare and have no idea what would be better.
Who would win? America is talking about invading Mexico again.
>>51354 The jews.
>>51354 Depends on who's driving >Spoiler I am still not sure why, it gets so tiring reading americans playing dumb regarding both drugs and migration, it's mostly problems caused by themselves and could be easily fixed by themselves, both legally and illegally. The only actual local problem is the short-jump migration which means locals jumping the border to work a year or so then coming back to spend the money and going back again later, those usually stay shut near their working areas which are usually towns and small places near some medium-sized cities... Unlike the long-term migration which are caravans of people going there and staying there in the big cities, but those are carried and incentivized by (((organizations))) and (((informal recruiters))) much like how those kind of people go to african ghettos and telling the animals there's milk and honey in France or Germany. Our south border was traditionally a non-existent bump for caravans but that changed 10 years ago, nowadays the migrants appear in undercover ships and planes already inside and scatter into the city to pick buses and go north, things paid seemingly not by them. It's the same deal and the same MO, they need to slap some people in their turf and bash some heads in the border for it to stop, putting troops here would be extremely controversial and wouldn't fix much other than migrants being more sneaky kilometers before. Hell they don't even try to hide, they ride in american trains going to the border like it was a bus, drivers and staff are just too lazy to check the wagons.
>>51356 >Burgers being dumb It is because so much bullshit is put out there to confuse the average american and the current political climate isn't allowing a proper fix to the issue (by raising H2A visa numbers). >Gov and bus want cheap, good quality food at large volumes Well, you can't hire Americans to work for $7.25 an hour picking fruit, that's beneath them! You can't raise H2A visas because then you're competing with Americans! Well, that only leaves illegal immigration since "they technically don't exist!" >Long term migration You can't stop that one without either fixing the issue of parts of Latin American being an absolute shithole. That probably won't happen as long as the OAS and CIA are overthrowing governments every decade. Either that, or you pull a repeat of Levounion and start taking notes from the Mongols and end entire ethnicity.
>>51358 Outside of luxury goods, by and large the American agriculture industry is a clusterfuck for more reasons than just the hubris of Americans. You have to either drive to those fields or have someone bus you there. Then you have to justify business insurance and similar ilk to anyone there legitimately. Then you have to compete with the fact that it's not that the work is "beneath them" but that there are comparably difficult legal jobs in adjacent fields that pay three times minimum wage for physical labor. The businesses can't even use machines because the cost of maintenance is more than hiring a number of workers because the government pays you to throw away excess production and right to repair (or rather lack thereof) will fuck you six ways to Sunday. At every step of the process the farmer is justifiably being a lazy cunt because he is either being paid to throw away crops or he has to compete with people doing shady shit under-the-table (illegals) making his business untenable, but that's a byproduct of razor-thin profit margins. Like a plane's death spiral though, to course correct the farmer needs to do one thing right, but he can't because he's a product of his environment. Companies hiring illegals are no different than companies hiring visa workers. They are subsidizing their costs of doing business on taxpayer dollars and expecting everyone else to shoulder the burden. Kind of like restaurant and bar owners. It's not that I particularly hate them, but I have utter disdain when those who hire illegals/visa workers claim everyone else is the problem because that's the only way they can keep their business viable. If the only way to keep your business viable is to pay Juan $3/hr under the table instead of John $17/hr or "hiring" a machine for $40/hr equivalent for the first three years before profits exceed costs, then much like the tech bubble, the banks, the military, liberal cities, universities, etc. I think it's time to let "the market" do its work and price you out of business to bring back domestic jobs even if it means a temporary spike in the cost of goods. It's literally all one big ponzi scheme that everyone pays into to prop up the laptop class, rent-seekers, and deadbeats in high places a shovel, a spade, and a digging tool not realizing that everyone is choosing to put off the hangover by drinking more instead of addressing the alcoholism destroying the nation's very foundations. Fuck migrant workers. Let it all burn to the ground.
>>51261 Someone already made it real, although sadly it was just a prototype: >>49302
> If the only way to keep your business viable is to pay Juan $3/hr under the table instead of John $17/hr or "hiring" a machine for $40/hr equivalent for the first three years before profits exceed costs, then much like the tech bubble, the banks, the military, liberal cities, universities, etc. I think it's time to let "the market" do its work and price you out of business to bring back domestic jobs The market says it's $3 according to you. Is this swedestan economics?
>>51358 >Well, you can't hire Americans to work for $7.25 an hour picking fruit, that's beneath them! Yeah some places do that but we've been getting americans here offering full visa'd people 15 dollars the hour for 3 months which is a heap ton of money if you don't smoke weed and save every penny for picking shit in Oregon, AFAIK it is minimum wage in that state and the dudes here also mention housing (a bed and a bathroom) and one hot meal included, that sounds to me like a great deal for any hopeless student living in Portland or Washington state. I don't get why they don't accept it other than "that's beneath me!" which is sad, money is money and horsing around with friends in a faraway ranch doesn't sound half bad. Perhaps there's not many youngsters/students with the same "holiday worktime on the ranch" philosophy that some people still have here. >technically don't exist! I often wonder how many things are only accounted on paper and the things that exist IRL without being registered, including people. Guess that's a topic for something else, having seen injuns living in houses and raising kids, all of which legally do not exist, makes me wonder how easy it actually is if you simply don't sign a couple of papers and live in rez land. >You can't stop that one without either fixing the issue of parts of Latin American I can understand the long-term but not the long-scale, i have never seen caravans so big and filled with rude fuckers until the Trump mandate happened, usually migrants don't beg or if they do they play their cards right by trying to be humble about it but these scumbags recently ask for food as if the state was a cafeteria. And personally speaking i know for a fact many are ex-military, at least the venezuelans and guatemalans that passed recently were. The cubans are much more sneaky, they can be spies and one would never know, but being weirdos about black magic is mostly obvious along with being black themselves. Almost all male too.
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>>>/k/51422 >The market says it's $3 according to you. But only a "privileged" class of people who are there illegally are allowed to offer their work for $3. Does that sound like a market to you or like indentured servitude? Most slaves didn't want to leave their massah after the burger Civil War either. Either everyone can be sold into slavery or nobody can. I don't have qualms with slavery, I have qualms with hypocrisy that subsidizes bad policymaking domestically by importing foreign labor to hide from consequences. Make it so everyone can work for $3 and have a deflationary effect on prices, or make it so nobody can work for $3 and let the business eat the cost of electing bad politicians. Anyways this is the wrong thread so if you want to continue this discussion let us move it to the /k/anteen. >>51440 >I don't get why they don't accept it Part of it is the laptop class (currently approaching the edge of a cliff), and part of it is that those people literally don't know the jobs exist. You bring up students, but those exemplify the problem. Why would someone who gets a loan for $50k/year for "free" from banking and government to fuck fertile bitches and skip classes while sleeping and doing drugs all day ever agree to work hard? They have been (falsely) promised the kind of wages that make payong that back chump change. Only an smart person or idiot would agree to that proposal. One can become wealthy simply by being around wealthy people, which is what colleges are designed to do. Who learns anything at a college? It's not that it's beneath them but that it's a raw deal. It's a raw deal because of idiotic policy, but until that implodes on itself (soon) it will still be a raw deal. What needs to happen is industry collapse to self-correct but instead we get illegals profiting off of failing infrastructure. Again, let's take it to the /k/anteen.
Oh right, and the cost of business is negligible for the vast majority of businesses. You save a buck, but domestically produced goods are rarely more expensive and tend to be higher quality than foreign slave labor. The issue is that those people's governments implicitly subsidize them to work as American slaves. I have no problem paying a few dollars more for clothing and produce if it means the local economy is flourishing instead of the money being funneled to some foreign nation. That applies to all economies not just Sweden or America. Local trade is more important than wealth to national and global stability. As amy good Christian or Muslim is aware.
>>51441 >But only a "privileged" class of people who are there illegally are allowed to offer their work for $3 The privileged class of all human beings on earth? You know you can work under the table at the rates illegals work at, right? Those keen swedestan business instinct at work I see. >Make it so everyone can work for $3 and have a deflationary effect on prices They can. The prices have been set at: $3 (according to you). >I have no problem paying a few dollars more for clothing and produce if it means the local economy is flourishing instead of the money being funneled to some foreign nation. That applies to all economies not just Sweden or America. No shit retard. The branding of authentic nationalist identity has a value (that varies by product) in it's tangible difference in the price monkeys like yourself pay for the goods (and the implicit quality of an established brand that the consumer is familiar with etc.) >Local trade is more important than wealth to national and global stability. Trade is wealth. Trade is never local, though.
Whoah, there's a whole lot of discussion about tanks here!
>>51448 You want discussion? Okay. If you could turn back time and hand over the Axis blueprints of post-war tanks (along with tons of documentation on Allied plans, army positions and the names of every spy and traitor), that they could make with 40s technology, which one would you give them? Personally I'd go with the Centurion Mk 8. Frontally impervious to any gun of that period, superb gun and lighter than any German heavy tank that was actually fielded. There's pretty much no equipment inside that would be hard to make in the 40s. Even the range finder would be simple enough to copy. The toughest part would be convincing the Germans that APHE shells were a dead-end designs and to ditch them. APDS shells were superior in every way that mattered.
>>51440 >many are ex-military, at least the venezuelans and guatemalans that passed recently were. The cubans are much more sneaky, they can be spies The indifference of the common mexican towards what is clearly an attempt to eradicate the, albeit localized, culture the have will lead them to follow the path of other Latin American countries in the 20th century. They'll either continue supporting the chavista puppet they have as president rn or swing straight to the other side and elect an idiot with far-right tendencies. >>51454 wouldn't it make more sense to simplify the manufacture of the panzer iv?
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>>51461 >simplify the manufacture of the panzer iv? They tried it and by early 1943 came to the conclusion that improvements were impossible due to the already strained chassis and suspension system. They would have to redesign the entire thing from the start, and that's what they ultimately did, giving birth to the Panther. The whole "just improve the Pz IV' thing is supported only by wannabe experts who play video games. As if these retards know better than the actual engineers of that time. The Germans were losing Pz. IVs at nearly the same rate the Allies were losing Shermans.
>>51454 Unironically give them Gavins.
>>51454 I guess this scenario also involves giving Germany infinite tungsten, since IRL they could barely afford to equip even a fraction of their tanks with APCR (and even those units were told to save it for emergencies). They also need infinite fuel, since the Centurion wastes nearly twice as much fuel as a Panther and the Germans IRL were facing shortages as early as 1943.
>>51469 You don't need tungsten to make APDS shells. It's the optimal material, but not a requirement. The first APFSDS shells were made out of steel for example, and they outperformed every tungsten APDS out there. > the Centurion wastes nearly twice as much fuel as a Panther They don't have to use the shitty RL engine
>>51472 Why the switch to Tugnsten anyways? I understand the Tungsten->Depleted Uranium shift for its pyretic and density factors, but despite being denser and more brittle than steel (brittleness is useful because it "self-sharpens" the payload as it drives in), steel is significantly cheaper, innit?
>>51473 Tungsten is a lot denser and one of the hardest elements, that's the simplest explanation. It withstands shock better than steel too.

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