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The 12 Guage Project AntichristHater 06/23/2022 (Thu) 18:20:09 ID: 7e619f No.36357
Hi, this is a documentation of my project revolving around the 12 guage shotgun shell and my aspirations to build a slug that will reach out to intermediate rifle ranges (preferably 300 yards), have large amounts of impact shock at those ranges, while still also being capable of creating good tissue damage. To do this i have created a self stabilizing slug shape unintentionally based off the MiniƩ Ball out of a CO2 cartridge that i used as a mold, i have made this "body" out of aluminum and have designed a steel weight/penetrator with similar proportions to a 5.56 M193 ( a little bit smaller so that itll fit in the shell). My goal is to have the aluminum body impact the target, transferring a large amount of energy to the target via direct energy transfer, and then for the steel tip to come apart from the rest of the slug and tumble inside the target. I have already made lead versions of these slugs without the steel weight and at roughly 100 yards they had great stability so im very hopeful for this shape. I have not yet shot the aluminum ones, primarily because i only have one as of right now and am awaiting a crucible to cast more. I also plan on sending these to the youtube channel Taofledermaus so that they can test them at longer ranges and against ballistics gel with their high speed camera. Questions welcome as long as they arent retarded.
>>36399 yeah, ive already watched alot of them. a couple of the bullets he shot (the Minie ball and the moose round) preform similarly to mine
>>36357 I don't fully understand but this seems pretty interesting. Have you considered doing some tests on you own first? Maybe using clay blocks or gelatin?
>>36411 >Have you considered doing some tests on you own first? Maybe using clay blocks or gelatin? the only tests ive done is with the lead variants with no steel core. To be quite honest im kinda afraid to try out the aluminum ones, its probably irrational but nevertheless im wary to try them. i also dont have any clay or gel blocks at my disposal although i guess i could try on some wet magazines some time although i question how good of a result that would yield. Thats the reason i want to send them off to Taofledermaus who is far more experienced in reloading and safety precaution than me and also has access to those much more cool and useful targets
>>36413 >Thats the reason i want to send them off to Taofledermaus who is far more experienced in reloading and safety precaution than me and also has access to those much more cool and useful targets I don't object to that. I've watched some of his vids and he seems to do a good job of testing all sorts of things. FYI you can get blocks clay from pottery resource shops. It can be a little expensive but you can reclaim the clay and reuse it several times with a little bit of effort to restore it to its virgin state. Assuming you don't splatter it all to hell and back with something like an anti-tank rifle. If you do go that route then just get bog standard grey or red clay so you don't cuck some poor bastard out of his Mississipppi mud or porcelain clay.
>>36417 interesting, thanks.
>>36413 Agar powder is cheap and reusable if you want to make your own blend within a vessel of your choice so long as you have the space to cool it properly. Have any large tupperware laying around? Walmart sells various sizes for really cheap.
>>36441 hmm, ill have to try that out sometime
UPDATE: my crucible came in and after melting down about 2 pounds of aluminum pop tabs ive finally started making slugs. here are the two i made today. Both have tips that are glued in using super glue (the good shit). One of em is sized just right. The casting came out really good for my second time ever casting aluminum slugs and while i was casting i had an idea. Instead of using a steel tip that is designed to tumble why not take a couple 1/4" lead or steel cylinders/balls and put them in there instead with the idea being that upon impact the Newtons cradle effect will take place and theyll act like small buck shot rounds. Idk just a thought.
I just did a test run of one of the slugs against a jug of water and WOW. first off it was LOUD. Probably 10-20% louder than the lead versions i tested last month. 10 minutes later and my ears are still ringing (yes i didnt wear ear pro, it was only one shot) second it seems like it was pretty accurate, it hit a little higher than i wanted but in all likelihood that was probably my fault since i was nervous and it didnt look like it was tumbling. and third, it was pretty damn powerful. Despite it hitting high on the target (and thus not going through as much water) it still did a TON of damage, enough to be comparable to the lead hollow point prototypes i shot a month ago. here's some pics from the shoot aswell as a comparison of the damage.
made the first cast "penetrator" slug. definitely some improvements to the process that need to be made (i think im gonna change the penetrator design to better accommodate the casting). i also didnt test this one, i think im gonna send it off to be tested that way i look at the high speed to see how it preforms. new slug is on the right
finished em, sent an email to taofledermaus and am awaiting a response, may end up messaging him on facebook
>>36357 I'd jacket them in copper via electroforming for a few minutes for better heat transfer and less shock deformation on firing. i.e. the copper jacket would take the beating not the aluminum round. Depends on your tolerances though. Ensure you are using jigs and not eyeballing things like alignment of the sabot. Ensure your jigs are trued. A tiny deviation will cause completely different effects at the Mach number of muzzle velocity = zero repeatability between rounds. >>36548 >it was LOUD. Probably 10-20% louder than the lead versions Welcome to supersonic shock waves! The aluminum is lighter so goes faster for the same energy. >second it seems like it was pretty accurate, See comment above on repeatability. >it was pretty damn powerful. IIRC your basic form is similar to a pellet round that is used to destroy varmints. Hydro-static shock etc... >>37313 I'd never put those in my barrel. See the central penetrator pointing off the longitudinal axis in that last photo? That could gouge the barrel leading to catastrophic failure, particularly if the tolerances aren't tight and round yaws on firing given there are no gas bands. Good idea, just needs finishing like polishing, truing. Two of the same rounds should look like twins - you can't tell which is which. However, yours currently look like cousins. Godspeed anon & fuck the ATF
>>37330 yeah tolerances arent very good atleast not for the drilling, the casting is about as good as you can get minus the molds being dirty. i stuff a torn cotton ball under every round tho so that it creates a tight seal around them while in the wad, that prevents it from moving around too much in the barrel. Even shot a couple of the lead prototypes through a choke (not rifled, idk what it was it was my dads shotgun) and they seemed accurate minus elevation out to about 100 yards. I havent tried any of the aluminum versions with the steel at range yet, maybe ill give it a try soon if i dont get a response from Taofledermaus (which i probably wont). In the future i plan on just casting the hole into the aluminum which will hopefully reduce the tilt on the penetrators, Ill see about making some more soon. Thanks for the support!
glad to see someone doing real world stuff instead of online circle jerking. i do have some suggestions. either work on your mold making, or consider alternative construction methods. some ideas might be turning these on a lathe, getting them SLS printed in aluminum, or machining a steel mold. also considering getting the plans on print, somehow. whether its hand sketches with dimensions in a notebook, or a proper CAD model, i strong suggest you do something for record keeping and documenting progress.
>>38098 thanks
Targets hit: 0 Rounds recovered: 0 (???) Distance/s: 100,75,50 yards Target size: torso Recoil: little Notes: one round was observed hitting high behind the target, windage seemed to be good, elevation was heavily off. Projectile was not recovered. Will begin further experimentation immediately.
Distance: roughly 25 feet Shots: 3 Hits: 2 Notes: projectiles fly very high, likely due to light weight, first shot was aiming at the center and went over target, second shot was aiming at bottom of target and hit center, third shot was aiming at bottom and hit near center to the right, suspected that that was user error. Bullet holes while oddly shaped do not seem to indicate a tumbling projectile bullet holes do however seem to indicate a wobbling projectile although it's too early to say how much this may effect accuracy.
Distance: 5-10 feet roughly Target: roughly 4-5 inches of wet cardboard Penetration: complete Elevation: a little high Windage: a little right (likely user error) Wad type: spent shell sabot Notes: bullet completely penetrated target and penetrated tree backdrop roughly 3/16 of an inch judging by base of bullet. Due to the use of cardboard instead of ballistics gel it's hard to estimate the spread of the bbs although it appears that they did at some point separate although they do not appear to have spread out far. Test will be redone once ballistics gel is acquired. Video: https://imgur.com/a/Pai6Jhu
Damage test of the round with bbs in it Video: https://imgur.com/a/Pai6Jhu
After firing many aluminum test shots and seeing wild accuracy in all of them we decided to take a closer look at the bullets. We determined that due to the way we cast them the nose of the bullets were becoming deformed and we're likely the cause of the inaccuracy, so we cast some lead prototypes that had non deformed noses and gave them a try. We fired 3 shots (all with different sabot systems) and 2 out of the three hit with the third missing (likely do to shooter error). In red are the lead prototypes and in green are the aluminum test shots from earlier today.
After doing many test shots and re evaluating our approach and design we have come to a hypothesis. We believe the inaccuracy was largely caused by three main factors: nose shape, bottom shape, and stability in shot cup. From all of our hits on cardboard the projectile seems to be flying near perfectly straight it just has a tendency to veer off at strange angles, we believe this is due to the reasons listed above. We've currently fixed both the nose and bottom shape but we have yet to have any better results which has lead us to the conclusion that we need to either secure the slug better in the wad or change the design to give the slug more contact with the wad as to prevent it from wiggling around too much and throughing off the trajectory. We've made some shells with secured slugs, one using hot glue and one using cotton, and we plan on making a new longer mold tomorrow. Hopefully we'll be able to shoot Friday and by then our ballistics gel should be done too.
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>>39270 I'm just spitballing here, but if this is accurate, you might try a larger, discarding sabot to kind of cup the round better. I'm not an expert, mind you, just guessing.
>>39277 That works but it runs into the same kind of issues as with the other sabot systems which is that you have to seat the round near perfectly in the shell. Not sure how well I explained it before but basically the problem is that since there is only a little bit of the bullet that is flat on the sides and not slanted there isn't a lot of contact between the bullet and the wad making the bullet wobbly in the shell. This can cause the bullet to become titled in the shell and screw up the trajectory out the barrel.
>>39270 >change the design to give the slug more contact with the wad as to prevent it from wiggling around too much and throughing off the trajectory told you so >>37330 >tolerances aren't tight and round yaws on firing given there are no gas bands.
>>39326 I'll admit you were right but we didn't add gas bands just made it longer. Loaded one up with a patch in a shot cup and it's snug as a bug, centered aswell
Well honestly I'm lost for words at this point. I shot the old short slugs and the new long ones today, the short slugs that I secured in the wad with hot glue preformed the best almost hitting the target and just off by a hair at about 25 yards, I was using a side by side double barrel and was shooting unsupported standing up so it was probably just me. I think one of the long slugs hit the target. I'm not entirely sure since the wad also hit in the exact same spot but I can see what looks like a round .68 caliber hole in part of the cardboard, that shot was taken yet again at about 20-25 yards. All the other shots with the long slugs were missed tho which was a massive bummer. I'm really not sure why they missed it probably had something to do with me being lazy and cutting corners on something but it was really disappointing either way. Anyways I've made one my long slugs and this time have made sure to do my due diligence in the creation process, I also cut the wad right around the point on the slug where it begins to curve (I saw this on a video so I have no idea if it does anything), and I also got glued the slug in place and it looks pretty straight. I plan on shooting it at about 20-25 yards again and I'm seriously hoping and praying it works otherwise I may just have to throw in the towel and call it quits because if this doesn't work I don't know what will. Suggestions welcome
Ok well that was a complete failure lol, I made 2 more attempts and both failed. I'm going to try and make a slug similar to the one Kekistani armor makes in this video and try it out using both lead and aluminum. If that doesn't work then I'll just chalk it up to be either a slug or roll crimp issue (or rather lack there of) and just buy a Lyman pellet slug mold. Btw are those molds steel? If so then I can cast aluminum out of them.
This video may explain the problems with the slug especially since they're light (only waying 130 grains) https://youtu.be/D2NLIZwGioc
Finally some good news. I made 4 more slugs today, one of them was an old short aluminum slug that I filled the nose with lead to make it more nose heavy. The other 3 we're all lead slugs that I cast with a new mold, the mold is pretty much the same shape as the one Kekistani armorer made. Tldr they're the same shape as a non rifled foster slug. The aluminum slug didnt hit shit and probably flew off to go out a .68 caliber hole in a tree somewhere. The 3 lead slugs did hit the target tho. The first (which was marked as a small slug although in hindsight I'm skeptical as to whether it was) hit high on the target, the wad of that slug also hit the target and was recovered on the other side. The second slug hit in roughly the same area, high and a little right. Both of the first 2 slugs had screwed up wads which makes me think these slugs are probably a little too heavy for these target wads The 3rd shot was by far the best, it hit a little lower (I aimed a little lower aswell) and made a perfect hole in the target. What I believe to be the wad was recovered just a little ways away in perfect condition. As for the weird shape of the bullets holes on the first two shots, this could be due to the top of the target being st a slight angle when I shot it although that's a complete guess. Conclusion: new mold is definitely better and I plan on making some aluminum slugs for it soon. I also plan on making a full bore slug mold soon too.
I tested out the new aluminum slugs and didn't hit shit. I even got closer to the target and still didn't hit anything. I was aiming at the bottom of the target btw and still didn't manage to land a singe shot out of the three on the cardboard. I think at this point it's a weight problem so I took one of the left over slugs and put two 00 buck pellets in it. I'm going to put one 00 pellet in the other once and then I'm going to shoot them tomorrow. I will update when I've tested them.
Made some slugs with lead cores. Got pretty good accuracy (that bottom shot was dead on where I was aiming). I think a lot of the problem has just been me pulling my shots. I'll make some more and shoot them out of a shotgun that has a stock next time. Depending I might even try 50 and 100 yards. Also the holes look perfect which is good.
They're on target Words cannot describe just how happy I am right now.
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>>39417 >I think a lot of the problem has just been me pulling my shots. I'll make some more and shoot them out of a shotgun that has a stock next time. ...You've been doing accuracy testing of experimental loads out of a fucking pistol grip this whole time?
>>39423 Yes.
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>>39430 You're fuckin' killin' me, smalls. Benchrest your shit and get back to us. I'm actually glad you're apparently making progress, though.
>>39433 Thanks,
>>39430 kek! >>39327 >I'll admit you were right ..and imagine how much further ahead you could be without the setbacks if you had heeded the anons here wishing you well. Consistency. you have none, but require it Like I keep telling you, your slugs look like loosely related cousins when they need to look like clones.
>>39478 >Like I keep telling you, your slugs look like loosely related cousins when they need to look like clones. What would be a good solution for him? Milling the ammo instead of casting it?
More heat before pouring and preheating the mold a hair will help with consistency. Also something to put on top of the aluminum/lead while it's liquid to prevent the doming effect on the base of the slug. That should be prewarmed too. You can use a candle, plus the soot from the candle acts as a mold release. Good luck, keep updating
>>40170 alternatively make a swaging die to get a consistent size. probly do it while around 350 degrees since thats a common extrusion temp for 6061 anyway.
Would going down in bore size improve the accuracy on a load like this? What length barrel have you been working with this whole time? What purpose does it serve you to fire a shotgun slug with accuracy out to 300m anyway?
>>40300 >Would going down in bore size improve the accuracy on a load like this? It wouldn't improve the accuracy but it would improve the range. Alternatively a more aerodynamic design than my current one would do nearly the same thing but I'll have to do some more testing when I get a chance (doing classes rn so I have little free time) >What length barrel have you been working with this whole time? An 18 and 20 (?). I'm not sure on the 20 because it's my dad's gun. >What purpose does it serve you to fire a shotgun slug with accuracy out to 300m anyway? SHTF
>>40319 not to uhh, rain on your parade or anything but hornady sells slugs with the 200+ yd accuracy
>>40374 Hornady 12ga SST are sabot slugs for rifled barrels, OP is working with smooth bores. They are pretty good but not a wonder slug, I would say they are good up 200yds not 200 plus. Going by what is printed on the box it drops 6.5" at 200yds with a 150yd zero, it's already entering the rainbow trajectory zone. It's a 300gr .49 caliber slug with a bc of 0.20 with a claimed 2,000fps muzzle velocity if anyone wants to crunch some numbers. I was only getting around 1,850fps from my 24" Mossberg rifled barrel.
>>40416 If I remember correctly, the heaviest slugs I was shooting weighed about 250 or so grains. No idea how fast but judging by the difference in sound I'd say near mach 2, probably somewhere around 2000 fps. Haven't done any long range tests yet but I imagine I'll need to tweak the design for anything past 100-200 yards. Currently my slugs more resemble a foster slug which i imagine will be a problem.
Yo, its me the slug guy. Im back after like 5 months with some updates. I made a new batch of slugs this time with a steel point in them to act as a sort of ballistic tip to help reduce drag. The workmanship was pretty spotty so i wanted to give them a try at some short range to see how theyd do in spite of the poor craftmanship. Testing the limits yknow. Anyways I loaded 4 shots, 3 hit one missed. The three that hit were all shot at around 7-10 yards, 10 yards on the foam targets and about 7 for the plywood. First shot on the foam target was way off and the second shot was only about two inches off with bead sights (did i mention i got a stock for my shotgun? :0) Third shot was on the plywood and hit exactly where i was aiming. The fourth shot on foam missed, no idea why but it was about 30-40 yards away. Sounds good right? Well not exactly, im not sure if its because of the material or what but all the shots that hit the foam targets looked like the bullets were keyholing or didnt hit the target right. The hit on the plywood looks as perfect as it can be but the foam targets are off. This has me kinda worried about the accuracy of these slugs. I fashioned a new mold setup so ill make a new batch soon and test them out on paper or cardboard and see how they do. Im really hoping there arent any problems but i wont know until i try. Also fyi, im using the old slug design with the longer taper not the foster style slugs. Hopefully thats not why im recieving these oddities.
Update. Made some super nice slugs, tested three of them. Put .22 bullets in the noses of two and hot glue in one. Got interesting results. Was aiming at insulation and on the second shot hit about 1.5-2 feet high. Missed the other two although one hit right next to the big foam target about 1-2 feet away Theory, I didn't de-bur the backs of the slugs and the wads I recovered were damaged so I think that was the issue. Would also explain why I get better accuracy at close range. Will fix and retry soon
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>>46503 >Theory, I didn't de-bur the backs of the slugs and the wads I recovered were damaged so I think that was the issue. You'll definitely struggle to get consistent results without a good gas seal. You could try experimenting with a variety of wads for a better fit too. With muzzle loading rifles shooting conicals at least, fucking up the tip of the projectile has little effect on accuracy but even a little damage to the skirt of the hollow base will make them fly off course.
>>46521 yeah, theyre not hollow base bullets tho its just a remnant from the casting process. The aluminum shrinks a little (alot by bullet standards) and you have to file it off, i got lazy and so yeah. Shame because those were easily the nicest slugs ive made as of yet, new mold, preheating, everything. Ill make more tho. As to the wad/gas seal i thought about that aswell, ive switched ammo types from winchester to federal target shells (no particular reason just what the store had), the wads are different federal is a two part wad and winchester a single piece wad, fits are pretty much the same tho. No clue if this will affect accuracy in any serious way although the slug that hit the back foam target had perfect windage so id think not. If problems persist after this next test ill blame it on the wads. I still want to be able to shoot these out of anything tho so ill try and figure something out.

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