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WW2 General Strelok 06/08/2020 (Mon) 13:04:40 No.2057
epic WW2 bread
>>4851 >Marginal, at best. If deployed and utilized perfectly, they could have caused major embarrassment to the UK, perhaps even 'major' loss of shipping. But what about all the Allies ships that would have been kept ready just to deal with a potential attack from them? Wouldn't that force the Royal Navy to mostly abandon the Mediterranean?
>>4939 You'd have to crew and supply them which means you'd have less other ships and subs freeing up other assets. Naval logistics is a lot more than just building the ships.
>>4941 Feeding a few thousand people who just sit in a bunch of ships that are barely more than floating barracks doesn't sound like that great of a problem especially if it means that in turn the Brits will do the same thing with many more battleships that are going to be missed from other places. Consider the hundreds of thousands of troops in Norway waiting for an invasion that never came, but the other way around.
>>4942 You've also got to account for training the crew in the years before, getting all the original ammo and all that hassle along with the fact your manufacturing capacity (and steel) is used for it. Then if they're sitting stationary and it's the UK eventually you'll have to deal with potential air attacks and commando niggers. Also to be a real threat only sitting in port like that rather than sailing around raiding individually you'd need to have the support ships around that'd make it plausibly effective as a full fleet (more destroyers, cruisers) otherwise they'd obviously lose a full fleet engagement. But I suppose it would be cheaper if you literally only ever intended to use them as a fleet in being for a few years. Really you'd want to use them more like the Italians in the med if you could though. A mixture of sitting in port but being aggressive enough that you're still unpredictable. That's harder to do from the Baltic but it's plausible though in the hypothetical situation where the KM had more big surface ships going into the war the worldwide naval restrictions would have had to have been lifted far earlier which would mean the UK would have had more and more modern ships to counter them. That said Germany would always be far better off sticking all the steel, crew, training, fuel and manufacturing capability into smaller surface raiders and particularly into subs. The real damage they caused and the ships they diverted further away from anywhere useful would be more valuable.
>>4966 >That's harder to do from the Baltic but it's plausible though in the hypothetical situation where the KM had more big surface ships going into the war the worldwide naval restrictions would have had to have been lifted far earlier which would mean the UK would have had more and more modern ships to counter them. People usually say that they would worth it if the Germans weren't autistic and did the logical thing of pushing into the Middle East and North Africa, because the Brits couldn't stop Axis shipping in the Mediterranean if they keep most of their fleet at home to replay Jutland. >smaller surface raiders Drachinifel is quite right when he says that they should have used armed merchants for this job. Even more, they were building lots of cruise ships for the Kraft durch Freude, and that would have been a perfect cover for this build-up.
>>4835 Probably, if anything i'm surprised the vichy french had so much support
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>>4825 >How many Scharnhorst-class ships could have the Germans built if they used all the effort spent on the Bismarck-class and the Graf Zeppelin to build more of these? Wouldn't happen, all the effort would be spent on Schwimms
Anons, help me out. What type of soviet uniform has like a short "poncho" looking overcoat? I see it flash here and there on rare occasion but I can never find it.
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>>5366 Does it looks like this? This is private first class or what ever of NKVD
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>>5386 No I mean like this type of thing.
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>>5389 It's a rain cape "plash palatka"
>>5391 No not that one either. It's a shorter one like on the pic I posted.
>>5393 Sorry cannot find it.
>>5394 Yeah it's a tough one. I'm pretty sure the headgear was a pilotka.
>>5395 Sounds like border guard.
Interesting. Apart from plasch-palatka there seems to also have been a plasch-nakidka. Both seemingly come in varying lengths. I guess it must have been one of those after all. Also here's some unrelated photo I found.
>>5099 That is a good point, as evidenced by your dubs. The overall lack of strategic planning in the OKH was at times truly baffling. Malta was a particularly hilarious case. The bongs thought the island indefensible and therefore took it falling for granted while the Germans thought Malta an indestructible fortress that had to be navigated around. If they had done even a little bit of recon, they could ave secured a safe supply route to the Afrikakorps which would have helped Rommel immensely. The lack of commitment towards the Afrikakorps in general was autistic as all hell. Instead of either saying fuck the pastaniggers and leave them to fight for their ridiculous Mare Nostrum, or going in hard with at least another division or maybe, you know, keeping the troops actually supplied, they couldn't make up their minds about it. The same indecisiveness resulted in the strategic failure of Barbarossa in which none of the three strategic targets were achieved which ultimately led to Stalin's victory. I put the blame on the GröFAZ's unwillingness to declare total war until 1943 which handicapped the Wehrmacht's capability to a fatal degree. But the OKH's inability to play strategically and instead putting all their eggs in the operational mastery basket was their tragic flaw.
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Was having a traitor in charge of the Abwehr until July 1944 the single greatest failure of the German war effort?
Is it true that Germany kicked off WW2 ahead of their re-armament schedule? If so, how big of a difference would it have made it they hadn't fallen for the bait until they were properly prepared?
>>5403 They have bigger problems than the Abwehr, and the Abwehr was iirc, irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
>>5406 I'm not an expert, but reading through a wiki page on him and the Abwehr, I am actually shocked that anyone put up with the bullshit from him and his branch. There are no scenarios in which an intelligence agency actively opposing and undermining your war effort and politics is "irrelevant". Even if they simply under perform, that's still devastating because you're still losing out on actually having functional intelligence gathering and counter espionage capabilities. Germany's military failures are probably mostly due to being utterly outclassed by perfidious albion's spooks. Probably more so than any other single reason.
>>5405 Yes, they were in middle of their re-armament program when the war started. As to how big of a difference it would have made, well the Soviets would have been in Berlin if they were given a two or three years after communist in Germany started their shitshow, supported by France, Great Britain, and to some extend power-tripping Polish leadership. It was fairly commonly believed that the communist in German society and military would have started causing a shitshow back in 1941 after the war with the Soviet Union started. Troops getting to see the wonders of communism first hand and telling what they saw to the civilian population fixed that problem quickly enough.
>>5400 >Malta was a particularly hilarious case. The bongs thought the island indefensible and therefore took it falling for granted while the Germans thought Malta an indestructible fortress that had to be navigated around. >If they had done even a little bit of recon, they could ave secured a safe supply route to the Afrikakorps which would have helped Rommel immensely. It also didn't help that the Germans refused to give the Italians sufficient fuel to properly operated in the med. The RM were by far the most competent branch of the Italian armed forces and taking Malta would have hinged on them anyway. >The overall lack of strategic planning in the OKH was at times truly baffling. >The same indecisiveness resulted in the strategic failure of Barbarossa in which none of the three strategic targets were achieved which ultimately led to Stalin's victory. In general the Prussian model was excellent tactically/operationally but poor strategically. That meant they consistently won battles but lost wars, at least against anyone who had staying power or who couldn't be defeated with a single decisive blow. >>5405 A delay until 1941 would have been even more useful for the Italians who frankly could have waited even as the war actually happened had Mussolini not been obsessed with winning his seat at the negotiation table which would have potentially provided a decent ally for once.
Was post-Munich agreement Czechoslovakia really so threatening to warrant a full on german occupation?
>>7331 No but the Sudetentland was.
>>7331 It had significant industrial capacity and after Munich and it didn't seem likely that it would put up much resistance, which are important factors. I don't think that was the reason though. From what I gathered, the government was still anti-reich, in some sense. Yes, it made many "friendly" moves, but more out of necessity than out of enthusiasm. They didn't really want to end the treaties with western allies and tried to declare neutrality for example. I guess you could say it was an ego thing, or something like that.
This is only tangentially related but what would have happened if America would have invaded the Soviet Union immediately after the end of the war like Patton wanted to do?
>>7373 I have no doubt the west would win eventually, but it would probably make the first invasion look like a joke, though it is also true that the soviets had manpower shortages towards the end of the war so maybe they would have given up sooner than expected. Germany would become a moonscape that's for sure.
>>7373 The USSR was by that point so heavily reliant on the USA for logistics that eventually they'd probably collapse in a war of attrition. However the allied ground forces in Europe would initially be horribly savaged and probably most other nations that weren't the UK would just stay out of it.
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Why did the Japanese have so much trabu producing competitive aeroplane engines during WW2?
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On Anons suggestion, we shift our discussion from https://smuglo.li/a/res/882346.html#q938714 to here. Pic related his post and here my response post: Mikasa is a non Character, has she ever voiced her own Opinion? The reason Eren does not want her to join remains unknown as of now. Armin is a Cuck who fell in love with a Women who killed his family. His talk talk nonsense is annying. If only his eyes weren't like the Ocean >Irl Germany TIKuck is a hack. His Battle series are good but his political videos are Garbage. He acts like he is the only one who knows the whole truths and only uses quotes which supports his claims. >by creating OKW Nonsense it was the direct continuation of the General Staff which was dissolved and forbidden after WW1. A supreme Command was always to be reestablished in the military plans. > creating the Waffen SS The ">Verfügungstruppe" was created to act against Internal enemy which the Army could not be trusted to go against fully committed i.e. Uprisings. Up until the War their Size was never a danger to the Army. The Waffen SS was created during the War and only grew considerably at the end >pre-war budgets that HEAVILY favored Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine Not true the Army always got the main budget. Keep in mind that the Navy and especially Luftwaffe had to be build from scratch so there may be some disproportional fundings as there was at least a basic Army already. >starting operations like Greece (and maybe even barb) Thats utter nonsense. Did he claim this? this directly contradicts some of his other videos. Greece was done because Italy was losing and there was the fear that the British would go in and threaten the Axis Balkan states >seen with the Putsch and all the shit Halder did before that There was no Putch but an assassination attempt but it became clear very fast that the Army as a whole did not support it. Halder was Hitlers choice in the first place. He pushed him and gave him his career. At least he stayed loyal during the War. Afterward he tried to wash himself clear and pushed the Hitler bad narrative. Also no Purge was specifically policy. The goal was to integrate ALL of society. There were like 20% Communist voters in the earl years. None were purged. Everyone was to be convinced of the new Government.
>>13701 Noice mate Let´s begin with TIK. While he is in fact a staunch follower of eloquent advanced fencesitting it´s good to know where his bias lies and it doesn´t disqualify him from making sound arguments. As he does with historical topics like you correct remarked and this one is. I will not defend him I just want to make clear where I got the initial idea from that gathered my interest and we can extrapolate what he says. With the sources, well doesn´t everybody do that? >Halder Got interned in a concentration camp after the failed 1944 coup because his 1938 plot for his own coup was uncovered. He was also part of another plot to arrest Hitler in 1939 and let´s not talk about the stuff he "reinterpreted" in preperation for barbarossa against clear orders. Halder may have been loyal on paper but that´s not an on/off switch. He used Hitlers goodwill to gain power and had no actual chance to turn because when the war started to fail hard he was already pensioned. Which leads us to Valkyrie: an attempt of the highest echelons of the army to seize power from the political leadership with special focus on getting command authority of Waffen SS. 5000 thousand people were shot and while that doesn´t seem much in the grand wehrmacht scheme it is an absolute point for my case when we see it in context of the 100k of the Reichswehr and their position. Because you know mate only they matter in a discussion about old entrenched power structers and new revolutionary ones and their conflicts. >general staff Was the OKH. The Luftwaffe was in it´s structure bound to support the army and navy decisions didn´t affect land. The only reason for the existence of OKW was as a counterweight. You got me with the budget but only because I misread millions and billions. Althougt the question remains why Germany geared 25% of it´s defence budget towards a force that was of lower importance and no, while technically the army existed, 100k men without any heavy weapons or vehicles isn´t an army in practical terms. >Operations All hearsay and Chuuni thoughts from me after I read an anon that said Greece was months away from joining the axis. >SS Now that´s the big one. Ask yourself why WaffenSS was given more and more priority despite dwindling recources and bleak prospect of the war. Germany isn´t the US that can afford to have redundant systems that compete for recources and the main reason to do this (avoiding interservice rivalries) wasn´t so much a thing as in other countries. Therefore we can deduct the only reason that´s left is an increasing amount of breath that Hitler has in his neck.
>>13702 Ok, lets keep TIK out. Like I said his videos about single battles are very detailed. But he gets agitated to quickly when it gets in other areas. And his Cocky attitude is hard to watch. >Halder Doesen't change the fact that he was handpicked by Hitler. As far as i know he was asked to paticipate in 1938 but declined. Since he wasn't executed in 1944 i would argue that they could not find any hard evidence. What he said after the war about this may also be put in question, as he may have tried to make himself look better as he had done for his military work. His work up to Barbarossa also seems to have been quite good. For Barbarossa, he as many others completely underestimated the red Army and the scope of the Operation. >Valkyrie But this was performed by a small group. Many of the Convicted were punished for being asked and not reporting this. The actual Traitors were few and not i the important positions, which is why it failed in the first place. Yes the Waffen SS grew considerably at the end. keep in Mind that about half of this were foreign volunteers which were not allowed to join the Wehrmacht. Thats one reason for the fast growing. But it remains that for the most part it was a small group who could not possibly oppose the army in a power struggle. But i do belive that hilter lost trust in the army after the coup attempt as shown in that he gave evermore to the SS (Himmler taking command over the reserve and later armygroup for example). We should consider that the disasters in Summer 1944 pretty much broke Hitler (Invasion, Coup, Bagration) >general staff I honestly fail to understand how the OKW would function as a counterweight. It could not give orders to OKH, OKL, and OKM. Can you elaborate on this? Also the OKW did coordinate between them (Weserübung for example), but each one had also their own tasks and operation (infamously Battle of Britain or Atlantic Battle). The Reichwehr had relatively large Stockpiles of basic equipment (Guns, MGs, Artillery...) and basic Infantery Divisions requires relativly small and cheap Equipment Tanks came later + the training of their soldiers were designed to quickly expand the army. Luftwaffe was nonexistant (Also Göring was in charge of the Budget so here is favoritism to see) Navy was completly outdated. Both are also more technical so more expensive. >Greece was months away from joining the axis Yeah it was axis friendly until Italy invaded. >SS Like i wrote above, as he grew more paranoic, he gave the SS more and more. But this happened in the late stages of the war, for the most part it was a small unit. They got preferential treatment because they performed well. The Army also had elite divisions who got preferential treatment (Großdeutschland, Brandenburg, 78. Sturm, Lehr Div, basically all Panzer divs). Again Hitler changed considerably at the end. To get to the Main point, i really don't see why Hitler would have to purge an army he himself build up and had 6 years time to replace unwanted personal. The army of 1939 is not the army of 1933 (you said yourself the Reishwehr wasn*t really an Army), i would agree that the Reichswehr would be sketchy but he had enough time and and did changed it to his wishes. Yes there were Generals who did not like him and disagreed with him, but thats the point. If you perform you could speak your mind. For example Guderian clashed often with him, but was later made chief of OKH (after a short break).
>>2109 >>2114 did shitposters really hate burgers this much in the war?
>>13706 I think this is Japanese Propaganda aimed at Australians.
>>13711 Was any of that in any way effective? not just the Japanese ones but any propaganda aimed at the other side, seems like a complete waste to me.
Regarding the matter of German armed forces, remember that one of the reasons behind the Night of the Long Knives was that the leadership of the SA wanted to abolish the Reichswehr and establish the SA as the new army of Germany. In response they were eliminated, the Reichswehr was turned into the Wehrmacht, and the SA existed until 1945 as an organization to be used by others for their own ends. I think it adds to the theory that Hitler had to balance the power of various factions. If I remember correctly he once said that he had a national socialist air force, a Christian navy, and a Prussian army. Pics are somehow related: the SA couldn't go into war in its own, but it could ˝sponsor˝ a division named Feldherrnhalle in 1943 and latter it was the main force of an army group also called Feldherrnhalle.
>>13713 And two more pictures.
>>13713 >>13714 Feldherrnhalle was basically the 60. Infantry Division reformed to Mechanized. The Name was mostly ceremonially, although they got reinforcement from the SA unit Feldherrnhalle. Keep in mind the Division s not the same as the "SA -Standarte" >one of the reasons behind the Night of the Long Knives was that the leadership of the SA wanted to abolish the Reichswehr and establish the SA as the new army of Germany We can agree that in the early years the Reichwehr could have been overthrown the Government so it had to be kept loyal. By the way it would have been stupid to make the SA the Army. If you compare it to the Red Army, it had plenty of conflict (Civil War , Polish War) to gain experience and an tradition. This would not have worked in Germany, a small country in the middle of Europe. Especially if you already have an small but highly professional army which could look back on a long Tradition (They kept basically everything from the Imperial Army). All of this was needed for quick expansion of the Army as it happened. I think the SA was just not needed anymore after Hitler came to Power. >If I remember correctly he once said that he had a national socialist air force, a Christian navy, and a Prussian army. I think it was national socialist Air Force, socialist (communist) Navy, and conservative Army >>13712 Depends on what you think s effective. The Germans had even in 1944 thousands of Russians switching sides, but this could have various reasons like hate of communism, conditions in Red army.. . For western allies not so much i would think and for Axis powers: its hard to convince them not to fight when at the same time you pulverize their hometowns.
>>13712 Propaganda can be very effective. The only reason Germany was able to invade Russia period was because of local support from rural Christian communities that had been abused by the godless Communists (a lesson a certain board fails to remember in their pagan LARPing). The Germans promised them religious freedom so they promised implicit support to helping the Germans get to Moscow.
>>13715 >but this could have various reasons like hate of communism, conditions in Red army A lifetime of that seems like a more plausible explanation than just reading some leaflets, from what i know at best they just amused some soldiers. >>13717 >Propaganda can be very effective. In general? sure, but specifically about trying to demoralized enemy front line soldiers i doubt it, it probably was way more effective to keep your people's morale rather than hurt the enemy's
>>13729 The hit pieces the Associated Press has run for the last year against Conservatives (and now covering up Biden's fuckups) directly disproves your point when they've been excellent at using propaganda to demoralize anyone who doesn't deepthroat Jewish dick.
>>13729 It's a double edged sword that doesn't leave a politically "neutral" group who don't give a fuck like modern lemmings on who's ruling so long as you leave them in peace. Back on topic, Operation Hannover is a complete meme and hilarious in shitshow because they threw away the number 1 rule of guerrilla warfare, never challenge a standing army out in the open who is ideologically dedicated and is still capable of operating.
>>13732 Also consider that with the Propaganda, the enemy has to react. He can ignore it and potentially risk negative effects or he has to put in some effort (collecting it, ban it , punishment) which could also cause some negative effects. At least it will cost him some resources. >Operation Hannover is a complete meme and hilarious in shitshow because they threw away the number 1 rule of guerrilla warfare, never challenge a standing army out in the open Operation Hannover was more of a operation against Paratroopers reinforced with Partisans as Partisans with Paratroopers. When it became clear that the Red Army could not break through and link up the Paras decided to fight (maybe they got an order?) and take command of the Partisans to maximize damage (maybe also because of an order)
>>13731 >Associated Press has run for the last year against Conservatives Are we talking about soldiers on the front line? i've never said that propaganda doesn't work full stop, my question is about propaganda specifically aimed at front-line soldiers, like leaflets and broadcast.
I think its highly situational. If your side is winning and you can convince the enemy that your arms are superior and treat Prisoners well it can have a huge impact. The british army had huge problems up to El alamain, namely that the average soldier just accepted the the German Army is better. Likewise how at the end many Wehrmacht soldiers tried everything to get into western captivity. If your side is loosing than obviously you have to focus your propaganda on your own troops. Also Its important to find the right angle, like the example above focusing on the resentments of the Australians to the US troops. Guess you can call it the art of propaganda. I believe this was studied by the CIA after the war and it became even more subtle then what was used in WW2 which by today seems very obvious
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How (in)effective were the Waffen-SS?
>>15722 I've heard it was a pretty mixed bag, from some of the best to some of the worst.
>>15722 If you can't be bothered to read, then watch this: https://ytprivate.com/watch?v=w4RveXKfrIk But long story short, the Waffen SS was even more random than most regular armies when it came to the quality of their units, because it had everything from elite tank divisions to random foreigners equipped with whatever other units didn't need.
>>15722 >>15730 To clarify: the Heer also had this variety, but they had a wide breadth of average units with average results, so you mostly knew what to expect from them. The Waffen SS was a lot more hit-and-miss, but people only seem to remember the best moments of the toughest formations.

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