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Alternative history thread Strelok 07/09/2021 (Fri) 15:42:02 No.17124
This thread includes alternative history wars, conflicts, weapons, tactics and more. For instance >Axis victory proxy wars >Their equipment >East centered world, conflicts And more
>>21433 >>21434 It's rather eerie how right they got it, especially if we consider that the Cold War was only kicking in, and the soviets didn't have any nuclear bombs and were yet to launch a satellite. Of course, we never had an actual nuclear war, so we can't know for sure if this is really how one would look like, or if this is merely a fantasy shared by too many people.
>>21435 The ideas set forth all are sound and still recommended or implemented today. Things like indefinite aerial refueling, and radar allowing rockets to operate semi or completely autonomously are commonplace things now. Others like knowing missile defense systems will never destroy the majority of missiles, a need for a decentralized military. and that deterrence is the most important security with nuclear weapons are ideas that are still put forward.
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>>21461 What I find remarkable is that if you go back 40 years to 1905, then machine guns have been around for decades, and that proved the worth of both light and medium (called heavy at the time) machine guns, yet in 1914 armies still didn't have proper TO&Es and tactics that took all of that into account. Meanwhile the krauts launched some missiles that barely did anything, burgers levelled two cities with the new bombs, and that was enough to figure out how a nuclear war with ICBMs would look like. It looks like they learned how to learn and extrapolate from a few events, and that's why this article really blows my mind. It's like if someone wrote an article in 1906 that predicted trench warfare and suggested stormtroops armed with grenades and light automatic weapons, supported by tanks that had a single rotating turret with a cannon and a co-ax machine gun.
>>21486 >and that proved the worth of both light and medium (called heavy at the time) machine guns, yet in 1914 Instead of that I wanted to write the Russo-Japanese war.
How far did Japan get in the process of producing a nuclear weapon by the time they surrendered and if they had produced one what it have given then enough leverage to make an armistice?
>>21511 Japan's nuclear program was a total joke. The only way they could get enough material for a bomb before 1947 is if Germany gave them some. This was all well-known to the Americans.
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>>21486 >It's like if someone wrote an article in 1906 that predicted trench warfare and suggested stormtroops armed with grenades and light automatic weapons, supported by tanks that had a single rotating turret with a cannon and a co-ax machine gun. Don't suppose you ever read H.G. Wells' "The Land Ironclads" (written 1903), where he predicted trench warfare, tanks, and sturmtruppen?
>>21518 Wow, I never heard of this shit. That's intresting.
>>21530 It's an interesting novel, if a bit too optimistic for my taste.
>>21520 >>21521 >>21522 Do you have more covers?
>>21540 No but I have these French postcards from 1899 speculating on what technology in the year 2000 would be like.
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>>21543 >you will never run over and crush the wooden spokes off the rubber wheels on another battle car. Why live? In all seriousness how would history look if cars never progess more then your pic?
>>21544 >In all seriousness how would history look if cars never progess more then your pic? Offroad cars would never exist and heavier vehicles would have problems. So yeah, it would be actually kind of crap. But mostlikely heavier vehicles would use threads
>>21542 >>21543 Thanks, anon
>In 1945, when Japan surrendered, Chiang's Chongqing government was ill-equipped and ill-prepared to reassert its authority in formerly Japanese-occupied China, and it asked the Japanese to postpone their surrender until Kuomintang (KMT) authority could arrive to take over. >American troops and weapons soon bolstered KMT forces, allowing them to reclaim cities. The countryside, however, remained largely under Communist control. >For over a year after the Japanese surrender, rumors circulated throughout China that the Japanese had entered into a secret agreement with Chiang, in which the Japanese would assist the Nationalists in fighting the Communists in exchange for the protection of Japanese persons and property there. >Many top nationalist generals, including Chiang, had studied and trained in Japan before the Nationalists had returned to the mainland in the 1920s, and maintained close personal friendships with top Japanese officers. >The Japanese general in charge of all forces in China, General Yasuji Okamura, had personally trained officers who later became generals in Chiang's staff. >Reportedly, General Okamura, before surrendering command of all Japanese military forces in Nanjing, offered Chiang control of all 1.5 million Japanese military and civilian support staff then present in China. >Reportedly, Chiang seriously considered accepting this offer, but declined only in the knowledge that the United States would certainly be outraged by the gesture. >Even so, armed Japanese troops remained in China well into 1947, with some noncommissioned officers finding their way into the Nationalist officer corps. >That the Japanese in China came to regard Chiang as a magnanimous figure to whom many Japanese owed their lives and livelihoods was a fact attested by both Nationalist and Communist sources. Do you think Chiang could have finally united China and established a Democracy if he had taken the Japanese up on their offer? I feel like no matter how angry the US military became, they would have still sided with Chiang and it would have given Japan an "out" to get out of a lot of the shit with US occupation and strengthened Sino-Japanese ties stabilizing the region.
>>21559 There would be far more widespread and pervasive railway infrastructure as it would be the most cost-efficient way of overland cargo transport. Horses and other draft animals would be remain relevant in their niches for far longer.
>>21747 Honestly, yes, that would have been a 'good' timeline compared to the one we got; and I strongly doubt that the US would have batted an eye had he accepted Okamura's offer in the first place. In fact, I forget where exactly, but I recall reading that MacArthur actually was very pissed at Chiang for not accepting that offer, calling him an absolute idiot that didn't know how to utilize the resources that he had available to him and couldn't identify a gift horse if it rode in with a giant neon sign. Further, MacArthur actually was opposed to demilitarizing Japan, having wanted to redirect their military might towards the Soviets/Communists, and Chiang's bungling that cost him that vision. Of course, that's just what I had read, and I don't know how reliable that source was.
>>21747 In Chiang's situation he was forced to leave the Japanese to administer parts of the country he couldn't occupy due to lack of resources and manpower anyway, which ended up becoming propaganda fodder for the CCP, so he might as well have assented to the agreement. The US already hated working with him and rapidly demobilized at the war's end, so they weren't and didn't come to his aid with anything more than funding. Hindsight being 20/20 though, nobody expected the CCP to end up as well equipped as it did from looting IJA supply caches at the end of the war, so Chiang being cocky as was his inclination wasn't totally unjustified.
Add another enemy: ALL ALIENS. Every NPC defaults to that naive mentality trope of aliens only using Kinetic war, or military action. Their deeds are mostly published, however to any observer at random times, the perpetrations seem thusly uncoordinated and infrequent. When put together, there is a pattern of unconventional warfare being waged against us. Theres over twenty different types of Unconventional War: - Diplomatic warfare - Financial warfare - Network warfare - Trade warfare - Biochemical warfare - Intelligence warfare - Resources warfare - Ecological warfare - Psychological warfare - Economic aid warfare - Space warfare - Tactical warfare - Regulatory warfare - Electronic warfare - Smuggling warfare - Sanction warfare - Guerrilla warfare - Drug warfare - Media warfare - Terrorist warfare - Virtual/Cyber warfare - Ideological warfare "Any of the above types of methods of operation can be combined with another of the above methods of operation to form a completely new method of operation. Regardless of whether it is intentional or unintentional, the carrying-out of combined methods of operation using different methods of operation that go beyond domains and categories has already been applied by many nations in the practice of warfare." - Unrestricted Warfare: china's Master Plan to Destroy America by Qiao Liang, Wang Xiangsui (1999) Add: - Telepathic warfare - Human Disguise Infiltration warfare - Migration warfare
>>21775 Ayy pussy. Imagine.
>>21775 Take your meds, then go back to reddit.
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>>21775 you forgot: - Insect Warfare
Anons, how would you make your own german ww1 victory scenario? And how would you make a Kaiserreich sequel scenario
>>21790 >don't pause the submarine campaign >invest way more on submarines >after the initial gains be completely defensive on the west until Russia is dealt with
>>21792 The sub campaign became media fodder to sway the US public against Germany though. No one expected the war to last as long as it did that Germany would have expected to need to blockade Britain with subs.
>>21790 >the Austro-Hungarian commander of the Serbian front is not Potiorek, instead it's someone with enough sense not to needlessly get some of the dual monarchy's best troops slaughtered by the tens of thousands >AH can at least come close to pulling its own weight, thus Russia collapses that much faster >Germany invests a lot more in cargo submarines, uses them as a sort of publicity stunt to show the 'merican public that they just want to wage their war in peace, or something >somehow manage to amass enough debt with the help of those subs so that US government does not want to immediately side with the entente due to financial reasons >after the Russian collapse Germany does not waste troops on trying to occupy great swathes of Russia, instead sends everyone to the west >with no burgers in sight, and with a lot more soldiers in front of Paris the French might come to the conclusion that they had enough fun for the time being and accept an armistice Or just go with the classic of Germany not trying to challenge Britain in a naval arms race, and ww1 starts with the Royal Navy blockading France, and then Germans just repeat 1871.
>>21798 It still took a year for the US to show up in force, they wouldn't have done so had France fell and/or Britain sued for peace >>21802 >Germany not trying to challenge Britain in a naval arms race This, have Wilhelm die in an unexpected accident before he can fuck up German geopolitics
>>21790 Easy way >Germany (etc. all) stops British from cutting Atlantic telegraph lines >propagandizes that, since the US funded them (at least in part) and they are used by American industry, British attacks on them are a crime against the people of the United States Done. Without this propaganda the British can't convert the Americans to defacto ally early in the war, or force them into the war later.
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Say that towards the latter period of the Vietnam war the north Vietnamese obtain a number of then-modern AShMs such as the KS1 and Kh-22 along with their launch platforms in a super secret backroom deal with the Soviet Union who really want to perform real-world testing under battlefield conditions. Around 1970 the USS Forrestal leads a CVBG in the South China Sea that just so happens to include the USS Wisconsin because John McCain wanted to pose for a photograph in front of a Battleship at sea the Forrestal fire never happens ITL, they get attacked and due to a combination of luck and the CIA being duped a VPAF Tu-95 squadron carrying Kh-22s cripples the Forrestal, sinks a destroyer and only causes minor waterline damage to the Wisconsin. What effects on military naval planning and engineering would this have for the rest of the 20th century? >>21790 >British never sell Helgoland to the Germans >Wilhelm II is content to have his naval might exceed that of the Russian Atlantic+Baltic fleets and French navy, though mostly focusing on the Russians as he doesn't want the British to fortify Helgoland too much >Britain remains neutral during WWI, assuming that still happens
>>21808 >USS Wisconsin Well, for starters, your scenario already implicates that all four of the Iowas have been reactivated since the Wisconsin was last on the list, which suggests that the US' war mobilization level is a lot higher than historical. But in practical value it means that the US and basically NATO would declare war on the Soviet Union. Since the arms deal was a backroom, the attack would have been assumed to have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union (especially if Tu-95s were involved, since the Soviets were the only user of the Tu-95s - that would be like B-52s showing up, everyone would blame the US by default), and basically nobody in the international sphere would be able to deny it. In short, about 40 minutes after the attack happened either (unlikely) ICBM payloads would be landing around the world, or (more likely) WW3 would be burning across Europe, or (dark horse) the Soviet Union reveals the deal (or claims the weapons were stolen) and throws Vietnam under the bus, cutting all support and likely bombing the NVA themselves for the (purported) insult.
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>>21812 Would this still happen if the deal involving the Tu-95s was only partially backroom in that North Vietnam would leak/announce a false date of delivery that is plausibly close enough to the planned date of the attack for VPAF Tu-95s to exist but not close enough for the US to expect them at full operational capability might combine this with North Vietnam deliberately flunking some air battles so the US thinks the VPAF won't send any large bombers to the frontline and if they do it's unlikely for them to achieve their objectives while keeping the missile deliveries a secret? Would North Vietnam operating even a small number of Tu-95s be enough to convince the US government not to abandon South Vietnam? What if they chose Tu-16s instead? Or could the Tu-95/Tu-16/Xian H-6 if Sino-NVA relations are good enough deal itself be seen as a non-nuclear Cuban missile crisis?
>>21820 During that era, the presence of international strategic bombers on the NV side would give the US Mil enough sway with the US Congress to get them to reverse Kennedy's agreement and declare full fledged war against NV. Strategic weapons such as those (which is what StratBombers were considered) were one of the multiple things the US Military and CIA was looking for as the go-card for full force operations. History would have went very, very different.
>>21823 How did Indonesia get away with it?
>>21832 By not being the target of a massive proxy war between the two largest great powers in the history of man?
>>21833 Would the US have declared war on Indonesia if the 1965 Communist coup attempt succeeded and they decided to send some materiel to NV or serve as an intermediary between the USSR and North Vietnam?
>>21834 Considering that the US of the time was trying to play anti-communist world police, it's highly likely the US may have at least marginally tried intervening, but it's unlikely with the US already distracted as much as they were that they would have been able to actually open up another front and the most the anti-communists in the territory would get would be sporadic arms assistance and special operations actions. That's just me talking off the top of my head, though.
>>21806 They could also rile up the Oirish Community in the US by telling them stories about the Anglos introducing the draft only to use the poor boys of the Emerald Island as bullet-catchers. Imagine if they conducted such an effective propaganda campaign that there are constant protests in New York, calls to boycott any company that does business with the British Empire, and so on and on.
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>Germany does not participate in the 1895 Triple intervention at all >Kraut-Nip relations remain stable, they order more warships from german shipyards to build up the IJN than they did historically, though their pre-Dreadnoughts are still built in British shipyards >France loans several cruisers flying Russian flags with French crews to the Russian second Pacific squadron during the Russo-Japanese war, Admiral Rozhestsvensky puts the fleet under quasi-French command by putting French "observers" next to his more troublesome officers for much of the voyage in order to more effectively beat some morale and talent into his men >the Dogger Bank incident never happens and the Russo-French fleet can properly dock and resupply+train at French ports, as such they sail into Tsushima strait in noticeably better condition than they did in OTL and defeat Togo's fleet, albeit not decisively >Japan still wins the Russo-Japanese war but the peace treaty is much less favorable to them leaving both sides displeased at the outcome >the great game doesn't end Would the Japanese grow paranoid and try to build up a large fleet of Battleships to deter European great powers from invasion at any cost through German shipyards because the British don't want the IJN to grow uncontrollably while the Krauts want just that as long as the Japanese leave their colonies and Chinese concessions alone or would the loss of IJN prestige lead to internal conflict with the IJA? Could a possibly opportunistic/paranoid Japan at the outbreak of WWI in combination with more overt Franco-Russian colonial ambitions and Wilhelminic dreadnought wankery convince the British to remain neutral so as to not risk a two-front naval war against regionally competitive opponents? How would german-built Kongou in TTL's Kancolle be like?
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How many points do you guys give this mao pf 1950 africa Story Germano-soviet axis gets formed in 1939 and america never gets attacked
>>22041 What do the colors represent?
>>22045 The grey are german outposts. The red and the yellow in middle africa are remnants of colonies from belgium and britain. And ofcourse everything else there in middle africa are niggers. The blue north and northwest are frances. The small dots are free france and the other are petains frances. The yellow up north is spain. The green up north are italian colonies. The other green are portugals colonies. And the orange is south africa

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