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Would you consider China fascistic? Blackshirt 06/30/2020 (Tue) 05:39:07 ID: 2b2933 No.2643
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmp51YN-7wc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7395qcF2MGA Perhaps national Bolshevik is a more accurate term but here are the key points. >They are ethno-natonalist, this has been shown from their suppression of the Turks in the west of their nation, they are demolishing the mosques and are settling more Chinese in. >Their military are very disciplined to the point where they put pins to new recruits necks in order to train a good posture. >They have considerably less liberal influence, you won't see LGBT rallies or rainbow haired retards in China. >I am not sure about this one but i have heard that old Chinese values are still a thing. In fact ironically most communist nations (Or at least ones that claim to be communist) have seemed seemed have been more fascistic and cared more about their race than any modern day western nation, North Korea definitely. I have heard some anons on this board are frond of Pol Pot's Cambodia as well.. Do you think China is free of the jew? Or is it just a favorable looking puppet?
Apologies for seemed being repeated twice.
>>2644 And the have.
>this thread exists >ethnoglobe thread exists FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
>>2643 Ofc course not. They are plainly Marxists.
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>>2643 >They are ethno-natonalist They opposed Han natonalism and East Asian natonalism >They put pins to new recruits necks in order to train a good posture. Cringe >They have considerably less liberal influence, you won't see LGBT rallies or rainbow haired retards in China. They have faggot parade in Shanghai Most zoomer loves hip hop fashion and music >I have heard that old Chinese values are still a thing. Learn some Chinese, visit thier community You will notice they have abandoned everything They have bad taste in everything They have nigger-tier manner ROC(Taiwan) and even Hong Kong did better in terms of keeping the confucian tradition Remember, Jew build PRC t. Hongkonger
>>2651 If anything, PRC is pro-faggot >Same-sex marriage is legel in China (not in Hong Kong, luckily) >Tranny can change thier gender legally >70% of Chinese support LGBT rights >Government media tweet "homosexuel and bisexuality is normal" on thier Weibo
>>2649 >>2651 >>2652 I see that i clearly have greatly mistaken things, thank you canons.
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Only really Pol Pot's Cambodia can be called ethnonationalist. From what I've read they carried out mass deportations of minorities and based at least some aspects of their policies on protecting "the Kampuchean race". In one paper I read on JSTOR, The Political Nature of Democratic Kampuchea, we see quotes from Pol Pot like this: >Without a socialist collective system, we could never be able to defend our country, we would lose our country and our Kampuchean race would disappear. In fact, our socialist revolution, has set up a strong base for our collective system in our nation, thus turning the whole country into a bulwark which can totally and independently guarantee our national defense Likewise they strove for autarky and stressed self-reliance and opposed the amalgamation of Kampuchea into an internationalist and Vietnamese-dominated "Indochina Federation". I've said before that they less resembled anything Marxist than they did pre-Marxist socialists like the Narodniks in Russia
>>2654 Never believe Chink propaganda
>>2658 Pol Pot's a commie, no? Don't tell me NK is based too.
>>2675 What is there not to like about North Korea? It's nowhere near as good as anything that existed in the Third Reich, Italy or Japan in the 1930s but I still respect them nonetheless.
>>2677 NK kills anyone not following their rule.
>>2694 Let's not pretend that every state on the planet isn't one step away from filling you full of lead if you make one wrong move or threaten their internal security. Jewish media is selling you a false picture of North Korea as some sort of uniquely bizarre and totalitarian country, filling the airwaves full of content that makes them look absurd. To know one's surprise, half or more of the stories turn out to be utterly groundless bullshit, defectors have been proven to be paid by the South Korean government and it's hard to see the majority of these claims as any different from what the Jews used to say against Hitler, such as that he sperged out and chewed on the edges of carpets when he was angry (muh Teppichfresser). If you want to see the real reasons for the opposition to North Korea, look into its stance towards Zionism and its resistance to global Judeo-capitalism.
>>2696 Agreeing in Jews=Bad is not reason enough to like such a dysfunctional regime. Simple being anti-western is not enough to be with someone, is like those who like Ch*na >inb4: Is all jewish lies, NK is utopia When you discredit all information that disproves you then you can make any claim you want without possibility of a counter-argument, this is an argumentative stalemate
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>>2704 I wouldn't call it a utopia, but neither do I think it is a hellhole. There are aspects that I admire, and things that I wouldn't seek to replicate myself.
>>2704 >a dysfunctional regime Take away the crippling sanctions, the threats to NK's very existence so it doesn't need to spend like 90 percent of its resources on defence and it wouldn't be half as "dysfunctional" if we want to call it that at all.
>>2706 Their crippling economy is because of communism. Still, social wise, it's shit. A better example can be Singapore.
>>2717 >be sanctioned endlessly for decades >have your primary trading partner implode and enter into a period of floods and droughts, leading to famine >have thousands of ZOG troops stationed right across the border >be forced to pour resources into nuclear weapons to deter ZOG “IT’S JUST COMMUNISM GUIYZE” Honestly I don’t see the need for the state to own all of the private property and I likewise don’t think that socialism actually changes the conditions of the worker as much as lefties will try to tell you, but I don’t think this is the primary issue here. >Still, social wise, it's shit. Objectively wrong. There is nothing not to admire in a heavily militarized society that exalts self-reliance and hasn’t completely sold itself out to globohomo, not to mention that they despite everything retain a strong Confucian-influenced ethos. The DPRK is a prime example of Jonathan Bowden’s saying that while communism may kill the body, liberalism rots the soul. I think there is a very good reason why the Jews have abandoned their doctrine of rousing the working masses against the capitalists and assuming direct control. Once the leadership passes out of the hands of the Jews and other assorted utopian fanatics it actually seems to turn into a run of the mill authoritarian semi-conservative nation.
>>2720 How militarized a country has to be in your opinion?
The best that can be said about the Chinese is that they're no more degenerate than Whitey is. Still degenerate. Sure, they have enough loyalty to the blood to not let hordes of Niggers in or let racial outsiders have a say but they're still filled with bugmen. A pity, there's much to appreciate in Confucianism.
>>2722 That's a good question. At the very least I definitely think that every young man should be required to do at least some military service for his country, that way he can learn some skills, some good fitness habits, weapons-training and discipline. And even prior to military service I think that it would be good for boys and girls to be integrated into organizations that build community and put them to service for their nation, much like the Hitler Youth or League of German Girls. Get these people involved in community service, group activities and various sorts of land beautification and I believe that they'll begin to feel more connected to the soil again and think twice before trashing it, given that they would have firsthand dealt with tending to it. Since I often think from an American perspective (since I'm an American), I highly doubt that it would have to be taken as far as they do in the DPRK with their Songun policy. The DPRK is essentially under siege and is small country. Something the size of the US would have no need for that most likely, but who knows what the political situation would be internationally if the US somehow got under the control of a White Nationalist government.
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>>2720 A "militarized" society based on screaming « my dick big » while carrying barely-functioning missiles on tractors while receiving orders from fat, senile and over-decorated generals who bought their positions. No matter how much they hate the west and how anti-ZOG they are, they are still a pathetic resistance, constantly in the ground looking for scraps, there is nothing to admire about that. Kim may not be a bad person, he may only do what is necessary, but his lack of results are enough to make me lose respect for him. As a 2deep4u indian shadowpuppet cartoon said, it is not enough to do the right thing, you must also have the strength to actually do it
>>2643 >Do you think China is free of the jew Elite kikes have been marrying elite chinks for awhile now, not to mention Mao was awful buddy buddy with the big noses from the beginning, or the fact their current status as the world's factory is all thanks to kike bankers and corporations.
>>2851 Haku Zynkyoku is one of the most redpilled men alive.
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>Swine flu >Wu Flu (No, is is not contained) >Bubonic Plague in inner Mongolia >Three Gorges Dam about to erupt >Fake Gold Scandal >Espionage scandal so big that manny countries are considering not implementing 5G >Every Chinese with a sense of morality hates the CCP >Japan Hates China >Worst Korea Hates China >Best Korea sees China as a traitor >India Hates China >All muslim countries hate China >Russia would rather get you out of the way >Anyone not LARPing as a Han would rather not being China >Your entire academic and scientific corpus is made of stolen research or foreign scientists >The only Americans who like China are bough politicians who can only work under the table Will you enjoy their collapse? I sure will
>>2941 Let's not forget that China is also one of the biggest polluters on Earth and is faced with a load of issues surrounding Hong Kong, Taiwan and probably Macao. It's gonna blow up by 2050 probably and it will be entertaining and good for the world.
>>2946 >>2941 China will last longer than the Amerimutts will. Then it'll split up. Mutts are a mongrelized demographic nightmare. Whites in the country have no real racial loyalty. Once the Boomers finally are dead Murica sill be too much of a civil warzone to maintain itself as an empire. Yap bout China all you want. They still have a stronger sense of blood respect than Amerimutts.
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>>2969 You're probably right about that. America is entering a stage of terminal decline as we speak largely as a result of decades of demoralization and degeneracy-normalization. At least, like you say, China is largely (esp. compared to America) ethnically homogeneous and an actual nation. America on the other hand is nothing more than an multikulti amalgam state serving as a testing-ground for the filth that it spews out onto the rest of the world. It can't die soon enough. t. American
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>>2969 > They still have a stronger sense of blood respect than Amerimutts Even if true–which is most probably is–that is not saying much. China itself is not a single nation, but a bunch of smaller groups ruled by Mongol-Japanese-Manchus-Jurchen-Khitan rape babies LARPing as Han. These so-called « Han » keep their Empire together with a flimsy network of brutality and apathy, they create this myth of a single and unified Chinese culture by stomping on everyone else, as there is no possibility of unity trough culture nor blood. Not like it matters much, as the Chinese have also no sense of belonging nor identity and have their meaningless loyalty for sale, only the stupidest of Chinese feel any kind of country-wide pride. Do Manchus see themselves as sharing the same culture and the NuHan? Do the Cantonese? Inner Mongols? Tibetans? Uyghurs? Kazakhs? Tatars? Yugurs? Zhuangs? Choson? If you want an asian example of respect for one's own blood then look at Thailand too bad the Americans came and gave them 'mones Plus, Why am I getting the feeling that you are assuming that just because I do not like the PRC it must mean that I love the USA, or see it as an ally in their current state? Why is an attack on China a denial of America's problems?
>>2976 >Why is an attack on China a denial of America's problems? Because he wants to be a dishonest faggot. I forget the term for this particular method of shitting up a conversation, but it's extremely frustrating because someone always falls for it and kills the discussion.
>>2977 >>2977 False dilemma / dichotomy. In general Jews and judaized love to use this type of black-and-white, good versus evil thinking. A good current example of this is niggers and libshits saying that if you don’t bow down before blacks and support BLM you’re necessarily a Nazi if only that was true for all the accused!, or if you criticize a Jew you’re an anti-semite, or for communists if you’re not a Marxist-Leninist you’re a reactionary or crypto-fascist. We can see the same shit with Christians in the Middle Ages slaughtering each other over “heresies” and trivial doctrinal matters.
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>>2970 Don't be so quick to denigrate all your forebears fought for. While you're at it, just remember what these evil bastards have stolen from us, Burgerfriend.
>>3013 The sight of Lyndon B. Johnson makes me physically ill. Fuck him. If there’s one decade this country when completely to shit it was in 1960, and for the world 1945. >Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 >Civil Rights Acts >”Great Society” programs
>constantly genociding their own people >milking their own populations suffering for every little bit of economic growth red china is a globalist experiment https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/267850276
>>3369 Honestly idk why WNs hate chinks. It's the government that's making them be like that. They're forced to live with it. Maybe they're referring to asian immigrants in Europe and US.
>>2643 Who cares about subhuman bugmen?
>>3370 Do white people eat dogs, cats or anything else these subhumans eat that is rwcognized as a pet in places our enemies reside? do we eat things we have adopted as a pet and do not raise exclusively for their use as food outside of the most desperate need? Do we torture animals we want to eat before we cook them? DO WE COOK THEM ALIVE? Do we eat humans? answer these quyestions and you will know why anyone who calls themselves a white nationalist and yet supports china is not a white nationalist but a race traitor who thinks all chink whores look like the ones on tiktok or like the made-up dolls that are k-pop stars.
>>3372 What about Taiwan, or HK?
>>3378 Taiwan does the same shit, i think they just hide it better probably because they have a fraction of the people china does, as for HK, they CHINA now, there is no difference.
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>>3372 >MUH HECKIN KITTIES AND PUPPERINOS We live in a world where animals are industrially bred and slaughtered, kept in filthy pens and pumped full of hormones, sometimes unable to even stand, wallowing in their own piss and excrement. And then these horribly treated, hormone-filled animals are shipped to grocery stores where legions of subhumans buy and later devour them. And retards cry about the fact that chinks don't treat dogs and cats like White people do. Top kek. Many of the animals in these slaughterhouses are supervised by rabbis who ensure that the animals are hung upside down and bled out too. Where are the protests? BUT MUH PUPPERINOS ARE BOILED
>>3397 Did I say I like those practices you fucking kike? I disagree vehemently with those as well but, THE SUBJECT OF THE CONVERSATION WAS NOT INDUSTRIAL FARMS WHICH CHINA ALSO HAS WITH FAR WORSE CONDITIONS BUT CHINA AND WHY WHITE NATIONALISTS HATE CHINKS, take your well poisoning bullshit elsewhere you fucking disingenuous piece of shit.
>>3401 >I hate yellow people cuz they're mean to pupperinos! Babby-tier sophistication
>>3371 So ethnoglobe?
>>3417 I never said I hated chinks for that reason, nor has any reason that I hate them been provided, I I asked questions for him to ask himself that illuminate some of the many reasons White Nationalists of any European Ethnic variety hate chinks, anyone who doesn't has no place in any WN movement, the chinks are our enemy as they follow the most destructive ideology of the jews, are very closely allied with the jews far more closely than America, whose alliance with Israel was done largely unwillingly and unknowingly by the populace the same way it happened to most of europe, as a result of being Marxists. You seem to be defending china because you assume my position is uneducated or emotionally based, it is not, while I find their actions toward dogs and other animals we have adopted as pets repugnant, it is neither the primary nor the most pressing reason that I think the chinese should be wiped from the face of the earth. Of course since you're acting like an idiot you are far more likely to be a kike, and i will treat you as such from here on out.
>>3446 Might as well say that all races are allied with the Jews.
>>3448 perhaps but only one can undo it.
>>3370 >muh gubnimt Okay lolberg. Individualism is a meme. >>3378 Taiwan is an impotent puppet state and Hong Kong is nothing more than a merchant land.
>>3450 I don't know. >jews v gentiles (white, chink etc) or >whites v nonwhites
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Modern China is shit, but I can't help but admire Confucian role ethics. An ethical theory based on family roles and one's relationship with the community is something that WNs need to look into. Here we're dealing with something that is concrete, not abstract ideas like "freedom" or "equality", instead we ask "how can I be the best father to my son?", "how can I be the best leader to my people?", "how can I be the best son to my family?" Likewise we do away with the idea of the individual as an atom prevalent today. The individual is embedded with a dynamic and hierarchical social order, embodying different roles throughout his life. >>3460 Not to say that removing the CCP would make Chinese suddenly change in character, but we shouldn't underrate the influence a government can have on a population. The elites shape the populace, especially in the modern times where we live in an environment of total propaganda / 24/7 psyops. Just look at what has happened to White people.
>>3483 The chinese who created Confucius no longer exist, the chinese people outnumber us and have made no effort to prove, like the Japanese, that they can coexist with us, they will be exterminated no differently than the nigger because they just act like a slightly smarter nigger.
>>3460 Hiding your lack of character and morality behind the curtain of the group is also a meme >>3370 Chinese are apathy and slave morality personified. They are proud of believing that « Someone else wining means I am losing » and if they can fuck you up they will because power and sadism are forever intertwined in their minds.
>>3495 Yes, the Chinese of Confucius' time no longer exist unfortunately. Luckily the content of his philosophy has been preserved in various forms. I think a thread on Confucian ideas or similar ideas would be a good thread for this board, so I might make one soon. Or it might be better to make a general thread on role ethics. I am not sure yet.
>>3483 > Confucian role ethics BE careful in distinguishing between OG Confucius and the Song dynasty "neo" interpretation. I suggest reading about the "legalism" faction in the Qin Dynasty. Much more interesting when you realize that feudal China is based on appearing to have a human (Confucian) style but in reality is legalist. If you have any questions I can translate them for you.
>>3502 How does one best distinguish between these? If one sticks to the Analects and Mencius are they safe?
>>3505 >If one sticks to the Analects and Mencius are they safe? Not that poster but generally, yes. A lot of the commentaries you will see in all but the most minimalist editions of those works are from literati writing as late as the Qing period however. That said, there is no harm in reading the Neo-Confucianists as well, just be aware of the distinction.
>>3397 >>3417 >wojackposting >pro-PRC bullshit It checks out. 动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门
>>3582 Imagine thinking that anything in that post was pro-PRC
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>>3609 Imagine thinking it wasn't. I don't like going down the "ur a paid shill" route because it brings down the level of discourse and feels like the dark days of /pol/ when Kampfy was running shit. But it is painfully obvious that the 4channer is indeed a paid shill. Rather than addressing the issue of ordinary chinese civilians being sadistically cruel to animals for no reason other than to compensate for the pathetic sexual performance of han "men", he instead tried to distract from it by pointing out the pragmatic cruelty of big corporations and by trying to appeal to racism, both of which are standard tactics used by PRC shills. And he did this all while expressing contempt for dogs and those that actually have empathy for them.
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>>3643 It's hypocrisy plain and simple. One can very well have empathy for dogs, yet they will go on to be complacent in the industrial-scale genocide of animals in horrible conditions in slaughterhouses, even financially supporting it and helping give money to Jewish kosher tax schemes. If you're just going to scream "SHILL" just go back to Cuckchan. You've fallen into Jewish black-and-white thinking.
>>3644 No, you gutter oil drinking subhuman. Nobody is supporting factory farming here. Nobody was even discussing it until you brought it up. We are talking about chinks torturing animals on purpose, not kikes torturing animals by way of negligence. Talk about how factory farming and other industrial practices are bad in one of the many environmentalism threads up right now if you sincerely care about the "piggerinos" and "moomers" or whatever it is you cuckchanners call them these days. Here we are talking about how your country"men" mistreat animals not only by industrialism and negligence but also they go out of their way to maximize the beast's suffering. AND they go out of their way to drive endangered animals to extinction because they think rhino horns and tiger dicks will make their microdicks grow. >I rape babies to death >but this other STINKY BLACK NIGGER shoots babies so I'm not a bad person >did I mention the other guy was black? This is chinese morality.
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>>3646 It's extremely clear that you are not a regular user of this board from the way you talk, and it's especially hilarious how you do not see why factory farming is being brought up, or how the two are comparable. You call it kike negligence, but it is systematic and brutal slaughter, often carried out in accordance with kike religious imperatives. >you don't buy into my faux moral outrage while I continue to prop up the Jewish meat industry?? >YOU MUST BE A CHINK >>>/cuckchan/ >>>/k/
>>3649 I do see why factory farming is being brought up. It is being brought up because you don't want us to criticize your "people" for their abhorrent customs.
>>3651 >hurr you are a chink That’s nice sweety.
>>3644 Those posts conveyed none of what you describe and as a response to me were pointless, anyone already on this board more than likely knows what our industrial slaughterhouses get up to specifically with veal and in many other ways, I still eat meat and always will and tend to buy from local delis as there are not many butchers around anymore and I've been too busy to hunt, you are defending someone who criticized me for bringing up reasons when asked why WN's hate chinks, he didn't ask for reasons why we hate jews and jewish corporations or the factory farming industry, much of which also occurs and usually much worse and much less humane in china making that post completely off-topic and lowering the quality of discussion and implicitly defending a racial enemy of Whites. if those posts are not shills they definitely act just like them.
>>3649 >randomly linking to /k/ This guy has a grudge because he got banned or some shit so he's trying to stir shit up now.
>>3662 Haven't /k/ and /fascist/ and /pol/, always had a lot of crossover?
>>3663 >>3662 /k/ hardly even talks about weapons and was for a while nothing but tired cyclical threads and circlejerking over the Coronavirus psyop and how the world is “totally gonna end guyz”. I see the BO just edited the rules thread to crack down on this stuff though so hopefully things will get better there soon.
>>3665 Yeah but that's not an answer to my question, there are plenty of idiots from places like 8kun's /pnd/ , who still think that fucking psyop is a threat, its no worse in many cases than the usual common cold and in most cases seems to have no symptoms at all and , but I was asking a general question.
>>3666 (check) To answer your question more directly, there’s definitely a lot of crossover. It makes sense too since the two boards likely attract similar userbases, and the two don’t really overlap in topic too much since we don’t talk about weapons here really.
The ethnostates of the future should use the social credit model.
>>3705 No.
>>3712 There is much potential in using such ideas for positive social engineering. I’m not sure how far would be smart though, because at some level we want to create people whose inner dispositions are such that they actively avoid degeneracy and other bad behaviors by nature. Virtuous citizens, not slaves following rules. Of course at some level all states are merely the imposition of a set or rules by violence and this is unavoidable and natural, but the question is to what extent.
>>3716 I’m the same poster my ID changed
>>3716 I don't care, it is unethical immoral and unnatural, especially in the way china does it. Every people have set rules for those within the territory their Nation holds in its sway to follow, most will, those that don't will be caught and punished, many have also encouraged many things, including many immoral or degenerate things but this duty by the state to care for it's nation does not extend to spying on your citizens just to catch even the most minor infractions, many of which don't even make sense to enforce and to force them to follow unwritten rules and make them fear you, it's not for us or our people we govern by consent and always have, even many of our monarchs did so even if they thought they had Divine Right betray your people and you will fall and this is what china has done most of what we want to accomplish can be done simply through education and other forms of encouragement.
>>3721 I wouldn't call something like this unethical, immoral or necessarily unnatural. Laws as applied by humans can be of three varieties as I see it: (1) laws which are in accordance with Nature and work towards its goals, (2) laws which are in accordance with Nature but are neutral in value, and finally (3) laws which are contrary to Nature and are harmful. It is nothing but beneficial to follow the laws which are in accordance with the Laws of Nature. >it's not for us or our people we govern by consent and always have Governing by consent is a product of liberal ideology and is not even a tenable position to hold. Paying lip-service to an idea does not give it any reality. Legitimacy is founded on brute force and a monopoly on violence.
>>3717 >>3716 >double posting You are the Integralist guy that got banned, right? >>3733 Ethics aside, the idea is dependent of constant surveillance. Fascism should dilute the division between classes, military, society and government, a government which constantly oversees everything you do just to take some points out of a scoreboard does not inspire trust, neither should the reason for one to do the right thing be some reward. Social Credit will devolve like capitalism, people will cheat just to get the number higher, completely missing the point of it and making it the center of society, you are better off focusing on planting the seeds that will result in a moral population instead of making everyone subject in a system made around degenerates. >Governing by consent is a product of liberal ideology Look at this guillotine bait right here, your idea for a state sure sounds like a lovely place to live in
>>3735 >You are the Integralist guy that got banned, right? No, that's not me. I just didn't want to be called a PRC shill for suddenly switching IDs. I'm the Tor guy too you're replying to in this same post. I'm not trying to hop around but when I first posted the pic above I was phoneposting comfy in bed, but now I'm on my main computer again so I switched to Tor. The onion site won't load right now so I might have another ID. Sorry about that. You're right though that we should be " planting the seeds that will result in a moral population instead of making everyone subject in a system made around degenerates." I kind of touch on that here: >>3716. I don't know if I'd make it the "center of society" though. The question has to be where, if anywhere, this could be beneficial. >your idea for a state sure sounds like a lovely place to live in I'm just taking a realistic view of the state here, as far as I see it. You're born into a society and you are obliged to obey. You never "consent", it's a fiction. This is reinforced by public education and other forms of integration propaganda. This is especially true in pseudo-nations like America where there is no feeling of kinship between government and populace as there would be a in more genuinely Völkisch atmosphere. The state of today has no moral purpose, but rather a solely economic one, bent on making the System / Capitalism run smoothly, with no regards for the well-being of its people or their ways of living. Quality of the citizen has ceased to matter beyond a certain minimal extent. The state does not want to build its people up, improve them and prevent its degeneration. As long as megacorporations are making money this is all that matters. Might makes right and political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. I do not reject the state though, of course. Statecraft is natural to man.
>>3739 You're not taking a realistic view of the state, you're taking the view a robot does of its master. Governance is always done by consent, no matter where you are. The difference between us, as in White people and the chinese is our consent is not forced or is ideally not forced upon the day you become an adult because prior to that you do not have a choice nor should you, your parents made their choice and you have to live with it until you can choose for yourself. We consent every day that we live to being governed by the government we live under, you do have a choice to no longer consent to being governed by this system at which point you can either rebel as many of us are choosing to do, or leave to somewhere else you willingly consent to be governed by. It is governance by consent always because even if you think you don't have a choice, you really do have a choice, even if you face consequences for making that choice, hell even the chinese have a choice, so stop with your bullshit of we MUST do what China does, it is unnatural and would only foster the exact kind of behavior that >>3735 outlined.
>>3746 Sorry, but social contract views have zero basis in reality. If you are on a country's territory you will be forced to obey at gunpoint if necessary if you choose not to consent to the authority of the state. And there's nothing individuals can do about this unless they have greater might than the state. Might makes right. Individuals are not rational and there is never a free choice to willingly consent to state power, it is merely something which is a given in every society on the planet. They are shaped from birth and for their entire adult lives by propaganda. 95% of people are mindless golems who will never question this unless forced to by material conditions. This is not a denial that someone can flout laws and do whatever they want as long as they do not get caught, that should be obvious. >so stop with your bullshit of we MUST do what China does The issue is that this problem of consent has nothing to do with the idea of social credit. To take your stance on it, just fucking leave the society if you don't want to be within this system. Simple as that. Social credit is the future, believe it or not, and it will be become more and more widespread either through government hands or in the hands of private corporations. The same will be true under Nationalist governance. >unnatural Meaningless in this context, as explained above. Laws and governance can either work in harmony with natural laws or against them. It is always beneficial to individuals to be harmonized in accordance with said laws for reasons of eugenics, health and likely fulfillment in life. Our current society, which is totally contrary to nature and amoral in operation, is completely decadent as a result.
>>3747 (cont.) Society should be controlled top-down by experts, philosopher kings of sort, the best and brightest of our people being chosen from the populace and empowered. The state doesn't exist to follow the whims of the masses. Politicians are not servants. Their true nature is to alter the communities' needs rather than slavishly following them, persuading, even forcing them, to adopt a course of action which will result in them becoming better people. The goal of government is to find ways for goodness, self-control and improvement to enter in the minds of the citizens, and help them on their path. Just as a good doctor does not let his patients recklessly indulge themselves when ill, so will the state prescribe a regimen for their citizens to turn them into better, healthier and happier people, even if they don't like it. View the ideal government as a medical expert overriding his patient's desires on the basis of his expertise. The masses are ignorant, animalistic, brainless and follow the elite. The time has come for a true elite
>>3747 >Sorry, but social contract views have zero basis in reality. If you are on a country's territory you will be forced to obey at gunpoint if necessary if you choose not to consent to the authority of the state. And there's nothing individuals can do about this unless they have greater might than the state Where did I say anything about Social Contract's or the theory behind them? Consent of the governed is simply a good idea and from what I understand the basis of National Socialist thought will we do things people may not like? yes, and they will be free to defend themselves from it. if necessary but with proper guidance without unnatural measures they will see reason and the truth in time they did under Hitler. They also learn to see what we see now every time a collapse occurs, they learn it the hard way then, Hitler went easy on his own people in comparison. >Might makes right. Might does make right, and the mightiest force of all is Nature, the very idea of Social Credit is unnatural, therefore Social Credit is not right, and even if we have the power to use it we should not for this reason alone. >Individuals are not rational and there is never a free choice to willingly consent to state power, it is merely something which is a given in every society on the planet. No shit, but being that we have always been able to leave a given state of our own will, or to create our own communities, our own nations, you do have the choice to not consent so long as you have the will to make it a reality, most don't, so they consent by default their wants and so called needs are thus immaterial. >They are shaped from birth and for their entire adult lives by propaganda. This is only partly true, and this is not what we want to encourage, we want to encourage people to seek the truth, to teach them how to see it, that truth Is the Natural Order Social Credit is a betrayal of the Natural order and presumes that urban centers will remain our primary mode of living. >The issue is that this problem of consent has nothing to do with the idea of social credit. To take your stance on it, just fucking leave the society if you don't want to be within this system. Simple as that Yeah I would but not without first shooting you and those like you who would violate Nature and seek to artificially shape your people, with a program developed and devised by those who have caused more damage than we ever have to this Earth. >Meaningless in this context, as explained above. Laws and governance can either work in harmony with natural laws or against them. It is always beneficial to individuals to be harmonized in accordance with said laws for reasons of eugenics, health and likely fulfillment in life. Our current society, which is totally contrary to nature and amoral in operation, is completely decadent as a result. It is never meaningless, you want complete control over peoples thought, and to penalize them for stepping out of arbitrary lines you and your computer decide is right for them this is no different from the moralizing left and is unnatural, we seek to put the Nature back in man so that those who are truly Great may rise to the top if you do this in an unnatural way. you risk becoming nothing but another iteration of our enemy, fit only to be destroyed
>>3748 >Society should be controlled top-down by experts, philosopher kings of sort, the best and brightest of our people being chosen from the populace and empowered. The state doesn't exist to follow the whims of the masses. Politicians are not servants. Their true nature is to alter the communities' needs rather than slavishly following them, persuading, even forcing them, to adopt a course of action which will result in them becoming better people. The goal of government is to find ways for goodness, self-control and improvement to enter in the minds of the citizens, and help them on their path. Just as a good doctor does not let his patients recklessly indulge themselves when ill, so will the state prescribe a regimen for their citizens to turn them into better, healthier and happier people, even if they don't like it. View the ideal government as a medical expert overriding his patient's desires on the basis of his expertise. The masses are ignorant, animalistic, brainless and follow the elite. The time has come for a true elite I will never view it that way because that way is anathema to National Socialist thought and the Natural Order, While I agree that much of what you say here needs to happen I disagree that the best way to do it is by controlling your peoples behavior by the same method as subhuman bug people who only needed it for that reason, and that reason alone, you should seek to encourage the things we want by the same tried and true methods Hitler used and by more thorough methods that make them resistant to propaganda of an untruthful nature, keep shilling for chink bullshit if you want but don't be surprised if some day you get shot for it.
>>3764 On the contarary, my view is in totally in accordance with the Natural Order. Everything in the Universe is ordered in a hierarchy: animate above inanimate, conscious above unconscious. As a Cosmotheist, I think that those who must rule must be those farsighted individuals who grasp our Purpose and are natural leaders. >keep shilling for chink bullshit if you want but don't be surprised if some day you get shot for it. This post you're replying to has nothing to do with "chink bullshit", as the reasoning and metaphor for authoritarianism and imparting the good to the minds of the citizenry is straight out of Plato and to an extent Aristotle with his idea of natural slavery. There are very good reasons for controlling the masses. Now you would be completely wrong if you think of some (((Hollywood)))-tier dystopia when I say this. This is what the kikes want you to think of this sort of society. Realizing as I do that society is composed of inferior and superior elements, and that the inferior - as things stand now and will stand possibly forever essentially - will always outnumber the superior, the best way to go about the organization of government is to aim for a harmonious society where a community of interest is formed between the lower and the higher and all of the disparate classes within the National Community. This is the goal of the Volksgemeinschaft to National Socialists, or the concept of the Family-State / Kokutai to Shinto Nationalists around the same time - the creation of a harmonious hierarchical and organic society. >I disagree that the best way to do it is by controlling your peoples behavior by the same method as subhuman bug people We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this point in particular then, as I see areas where it could possibly be applied, but again the main issue will be deciding where if anywhere this would be most beneficial for the society that we aim at creating. >you should seek to encourage the things we want by the same tried and true methods Hitler used I believe Hitler followed my model fairly closely to the extent that was possible in his time.
>>3763 >Consent of the governed is simply a good idea and from what I understand the basis of National Socialist thought will we do things people may not like? yes, and they will be free to defend themselves from it. Hitler never speaks of "the consent of the governed" in his writings. He repeatedly talks about the difference between men of genius and the inertia of the masses. Even in the Stalag edition (so we know there is no kikery afoot here) he speaks of the "dunder-headed multitude"'s hatred of the superior brain and he asks whether, when confronted with "obstinate stupidity of his [i.e. the statesmans'] fellow-citizens, should he refrain from pushing forward with the measures which lie deems to be of vital necessity to the life of the nation?" This clearly talks about pushing forward measures which might be unpopular regardless of what the masses think of it. You're not going to get a working eugenics program if you found it on consent. In this matter in specific, you have to be "cruel" by normalfag standards in legally mandating abortions on certain fetuses, sterilizing people or euthanizing them. All of these measures were things done by the Third Reich with no qualms. The idea of "consent of the governed" has no roots in the thinking of Hitler or similar men, as the idea of "the consent of the governed" has its roots in pozzed philosophy like John Locke and John Milton, both individualists. >Might does make right, and the mightiest force of all is Nature, the very idea of Social Credit is unnatural, therefore Social Credit is not right, and even if we have the power to use it we should not for this reason alone. Your argument is incoherent. You say that: >the mighiest force of all is Nature and then immediately go on to assert >the very idea of Social Credit is unnatural and then from this brute assertion >therefore Social Credit is not right As long as you don't explain why social credit is inherently "unnatural" or necessarily harmful, your argument has no ground to stand on. By the standards you're taking it seems like one could easily argue that all laws are unnatural. I could easily construct the following argument: >The mightest force of all is Nature >the very idea of restrictions on my individual whims is unnatural >therefore restrictions / laws are not right As I pointed out earlier, the measures imposed by social credit can either be in accordance with Nature, or against it.
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>>2643 They are a salty slave race.
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>>3739 >The question has to be where, if anywhere, this could be beneficial. I would be against any kind of division among a population, but in a practical sense hierarchy will always develop naturally. I believe the solution is to make this social hierarchy visible, but unmeasurable by getting rid of the numerical aspect of it. What I can think of is to create a system of civil decorations for outstanding behavior, and promoting a sense of pride in them, making them known so they can serve as a symbol for model behavior for every level of society. Instead of being given by a central government which would require heavy surveillance and processing to find candidates, communities would submit local people which would then be reviewed by a centralized authority. Outside of the pretty metal, their purpose should be to have a physical reminder that your work has being recognized and appreciated by your community, it would be a nice detail to keep the community's submission a secret, only revealed once you are invited to a ceremony, be it national or personal. However, it should have no impact on the rights you have, just your image. Imagine being a humble baker in a small town, every day you wake up at 300h just to sell freshly-baked bread to your town's folk. You treat your employees with discipline but respect, care about the well-being of your clients—the people of your town—and maintain a great level of quality which brings joy and a better life to your town, suddenly, after work, your wife invites you to a public space only to find a a gathering of manny people you know and a strange man holding a box, you are taken in front of him, and tells you that your town has recognized you are an important part of it worthy of being recognized by the state, and as a symbol of this you will be granted a decoration. Alternatively if you are special enough you will be invited to the capital and be decorated by the ruler of your nation himself. >I'm just taking a realistic view of the state here Do not think that I am calling you an incel, but you are committing the same mistake their entire rabbit hole is based on; while truth can be uncomfortable this does not mean that just because something is uncomfortable it must be true. In reality truth is more anticlimactic than horrible. About the state, modern statehood is flawed and misguided, not a model of reality nor an example to follow, this is the state version of being tyrannical over the entire population because you want to control a degenerate minority, you are letting a bad example take over your vision and act as if all this is supposed to be normal. Fascism is Revolutionary, not conformist in any aspect, this is what separates it from every other -ism. Do not miss the opportunity of thinking of a better future.
>>3787 Hitler believed in for the people,by the people, as in following the peoples will even if they don't know what that will is, too many quotes have him saying this for consent of the governed not to have been a part of his thought processes, or in those of his movement, does that mean it was taken to the conclusion Locke and others had? no, but the philosophy is there in that he wanted his people not only to be free but to be happy and thus their consent given freely and enthusiastically. Trying to say that he wanted pure moral authoritarian AI controlled surveillance state policies smells like bullshit to me. I would also like to point out that he hated the moralizing bullshit, on either side, and I mean excessively so, (like a surveillance state that assigns a score to it's people behavior, would be by necessity) so much that he had Goebbels warn explicitly not to let that shit get so out of hand that you turn into what you despise. I hate the left and the jews who control them for this exact same shit, their moralizing thought controlling bullshit is exactly what I cannot stand about them and about china (especially given that china's implementation only encourages being more careful in violating the rules they claim they don't want you to) ever pushing the boundaries to the point where one cannot even think without considering what or who, you could "hurt" with a simple word. It is, I think an error on your part to not only advocate but think thgat doing this kind of psychological torture to your people is a good thing, it is not. Yes while he did believe that many of the people are and were too stupid to know whats best forthem and while that is true, they can learn, we can do social engineering without leaving ourselves open to subversion like a surveillance state would by simply existing its not a good idea, and if we did it, we would literally become what we are fighting rather than being the saviors of our people we would become the enemy of our people, I at least will not stand for that.
>>2652 They would have to be pro-faggot anyway since they killed off several generations of their women with their retarded one child bullshit. It's probably like a fucking prison over there.
>>3705 I mean if you want people to start being fake good and doing their horrible shit in secret so that you don't know who is a soulless nigger and who is actually a good person because people have to do their mandated good deeds unless they want to get Waco'ed then fine go for it I personally be living as far away from your nightmare world as possible thank you.
>>3739 >The state of today has no moral purpose, but rather a solely economic one So you want to amplify that by a thousand and install a 1984 big brother system?
>>3804 Yes, of course all divisions within the national body are to be avoided, though like you said this will of course include differentiation and hierarchy within a single organic unity. >not a model of reality nor an example to follow, this is the state version of being tyrannical over the entire population because you want to control a degenerate minority, you are letting a bad example take over your vision and act as if all this is supposed to be normal. I advocate for a totalitarian state, but I deny that this is tyrannical. Aristotle in his Politics defines the difference between just and unjust rule in terms of the common good. You can have a society that is ruled by one man. If he rules for the common good, he calls this monarchy. A tyranny was the rule by one man for selfish private interests, i.e. not in the interest of the community. The rule proposed here in my posts is in the common good of the populace and conducive to the interest of both the national superorganism and each and every constituent individual within it. Ideally, this functions as smoothly as possible. If the will of the national is truly internalized we have not just a country as a atomized mass of individuals integrated within a single system of laws, but rather an integrated superindividuality. This is most visible in a state of total war, when the nation itself functions as if it were an individual possessing a single will. The medals idea is interesting, I read a book (Looking Backward, I think) that had a similar system.
>>3809 >Hitler believed in for the people,by the people, as in following the peoples will even if they don't know what that will is, too many quotes have him saying this for consent of the governed not to have been a part of his thought processes, or in those of his movement [...] but the philosophy is there in that he wanted his people not only to be free but to be happy and thus their consent given freely and enthusiastically. You agree with me here and you don't even know it, anon. You first say that Hitler believed in following the people's will even if they don't know what that will is. This is hardly different than what I am trying to get at here >>3748. The state is to function in such way as to forge a better nation composed of better people, setting them a higher goal that they can all work towards as one united and people. All states to some extent are based on force, but we do not want to lead our people to greatness at gunpoint. This is why we have education, this is why we have propaganda, this is why my post at >>3748 mentions not just force, but persuasion and guidance so that that they give themselves over enthusiastically. >Trying to say that he wanted pure moral authoritarian AI controlled surveillance state policies smells like bullshit to me. I don't think I have said that. I did that say Hitler wanted an organic nation and was mistrustful of the masses, but that was all. I never said Hitler wanted social credit. Now to drop a giant redpill here — and not many will be able to swallow this — the Chinese will dominate the planet and destroy Western civilization. Many people attack China in particular with terms like "insects", "hive", "superorganism", "soulless", but believe it nor (and everyone will realize in time), this is China's greatest source of power. China has become a truly organic society, a superorganism. Individual citizens of China are like cells of a single superindividual, they are morphologically distinct yet physiologically bound to their colony, having instinctually subsumed their lesser egos to the greater ego of the racial collective. The racial collective is the highest level of organic individuality in Nature, and it is this primarily which undergoes the struggle for survival against other alien racial collectives. The more altruistic, less egoistic, the more numerous its constituent parts, the better organized a national superinvidiual, the powerful it is, the less atomized, underorganized, selfish and egoistic collectives will be able to compete. They will be crushed and subjugated. And then if we look at the West right now, some White people are too selfish even to wear a mask out in public for the greater good of White people. As soon as someone tells a White person what do, especially here in America, they sperg out on and start screaming about "MUH FREEEEEDUMB". The Chink hive will stomp on them in time. >>3821 Amplify what by a thousand? The system I envision has no existence today. The state today exists to ensure that capitalists can run their corporations, keep the wagecucks working, and so that the capitalists can induce urges within people to buy items that they don't need with money they don't have. Besides this, the state will allow any form of degeneracy to flourish, and in fact the varieties of degeneracy themselves becomes a sort of market niche (think of trannies, homos, etc and their co-option by mega-corporations). The state has no higher goal for its people. It is adrift.
>>3827 The chinks cannot even feed themselves, historically they had been absolute shit militarilly and depends on western factores to be relevante. I would prefer kill myself rather than living like the bugmens. Keep sucking Xi's tiny dick.
>>3828 The fact that they are using Western technology now is irrelevant to them. It is was our mistake to have let our industrial and technological secrets diffuse out of the core in Western Europe and North America into the non-White and colonial world. Now we're competing now just against other racial groups, but against racial groups who have put our technology to use and accelerated their development, modernized more or less, and in a few cases even acquired nuclear weapons. When someone says "th-they can't even use their own technology" it's just seething that accomplishes nothing. Technology is the tactics of life used in struggle against Nature and other groups. If you allow your enemy to learn your tactics of course they're going to adapt these tactics if you allow them to learn about it. This diffusion of our methods has led to the rapid closure of the gap between White and non-White worlds. >The chinks cannot even feed themselves Neither can any White nation. We've become so tied into the (((World market))) that we cannot function without it. Autarky should be an obvious goal of every self-respecting and national-minded state. The national security risks of not being autarkic are too high
>>3832 The chinks aren't even trying to be an autarky. And white nations doesn't have most of his agrarian farmland completely polluted like the chinks, so unlike them if we wanted we could self sustain. Geek. What happen with /fascist/? Now the next you are going to tell me is that Stalin was based and nazbol is a viable thing?
>>3833 >The chinks aren't even trying to be an autarky I never claimed this, hence why I said ' neither can any White nation'. If China was smart they would be going for autarky, just like any self-conscious and growth-minded racial collective should want. We should be self-sustaining, I don't think anyone can disagree with that. I do wonder though how White nations could become self-sustaining in Europe though due to their small sizes while still sustaining decent standard of living. >What happen with /fascist/? You're taking praise of China in one aspect to be praise of China in all respects, which is completely false. Nazbols are subversive. I am viewing the issue from a completely different angle, more in line with Hegel's ideas of the nation-state as an organism, conceived as an individual, unique and exclusive. From this conception, which people such as Giovanni Gentile held to too, there is a shared overarching purpose that binds the differentiated parts of the nation together and subordinates them to the interests of the polity as a whole. The communitarian glue for this project is the ethical life, Sittlichkeit. This is purely fascistic in its conception, and even in nature we can see organisms which function this way. And Stalin massacred millions of White people
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>>3834 Story if I sound more of an ass before, but I had bad experiences arguing with 50-cent army chinese shills and they willing blindness to anything that doesn't put China as numbah one. Seems we agree more with you that I think before then. About being small. While it could be fixed a bit with better birthrates. I think Europe would be fine with medium population and has the enough resources to selfsubstain. Massive population for the sake of massive populations come with varios problems to ideal with. Also, I see China as post-WW2 América inútil the late 60's: A better treat slave of the kikes, but a slave. Later it will suffer the same destiny as the rest if they don't stop. They are dealing with niggers now as the colonial era and we know what result that had on europeans.
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>>3835 No need to apologize, anon, it's always good to be on the lookout for genuine shills. >I think Europe would be fine with medium population and has the enough resources to selfsubstain. Massive population for the sake of massive populations come with varios problems to ideal with. That's true. Massive populations aren't everything, and are in fact oftentimes harmful to the environment and potentially result in all sorts of bizarre behavioral problems (Calhoun's behavioral sink). While we need to fix our birthrates and exclude mudmen from our midst, we need to be in balance with our environment as well. >A better treat slave of the kikes, but a slave Very true. People often forget that Jewish influence is instrumental in the founding of modern China.
>>3834 >even in nature we can see organisms which function this way. You're going to have to redpill me here. I can't think of anything in nature that functions like a nation-state
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>>3839 You need to read up on colonial hydrozoans of the order Siphonophora, it will mindfuck you. Siphonophores are free-swimming or floating marine organisms (like the Portuguese man-of-war). These are not single organisms in a way that one would think though, but they are composed of distinct individuals called zooids. Zooids are homologous to solitary animals and are functionally specialized within their colonies and arranged in complex ways within a single superorganism. Within a Siphonophore superorganism we find some zooids which provide locomotion, others which sting, others which capture prey and others which digest prey and assist in sharing out resources among the colony. It's like a mini ethnostate with its own division of labor, unified will, resource-sharing and all else. So basically the fascist / Hegelian / organic conception of the state is to an extent attested within nature in a striking way Portuguese Man-of-war Nationalism is the ultimate redpill.
>>3827 I may agree with you Ideologically, on the history of it all and so on I will never support the method of control you are shilling, first on practicality, Second on the sheer cost and logistics of the whole system, third on the ease of subversion with this big giant panopticon watching over the populace, and fourth on the morality, in my view, if we are as a movement so worthless that we must do as our enemies do to control their populace, and cannot do so without violating their very minds, what worth are we truly? None.
>>3827 I don't think Covid is even half the threat it has been played up to and wearing a mask is largely pointless when the virus, of an extremely common type which includes many flu viruses and common cold viruses and has been running around free since at least October 2019 according to Taiwan, which means it had 5 months in which to do real damage before any major power locked anything up, and no rise in deaths was recorded when we have antibody test studies showing that the majority of the populace has has had contact with the virus and the most common symptom is no symptoms at all as an asymptomatic carrier, death numbers were admitted as being at least 25% greater than the real deaths from the virus because of hospital greed and so on and so forth, I can keep going on about why the people talking about FREEEDUMBS as you put it are right at least in this scenario, as lockdowns are being primed for a second round in many places and how they are only effective in the first place if THE INFECTION HAS NOT HIT EVEN ONE MEMBER OF YOUR POPULACE prior to the lockdown, keep believing what the idiots in power want if you will, I won't bend so easily to their will.
>>3850 Honestly even though I've been arguing for multiple posts now for some sort of social credit, I'm really not sure how this in particular would fit into my vision for a de-atomized national community (Volksgemeinschaft). I touch on this here >>3739 in the second paragraph and the post linked within it. Even though I've been Panopticon-posting for a while now (I wrote pic related back in the day mainly as a devil's advocate / bait post, though I don't really believe it), what is absolutely essentially at the end of the today is simply destroying the liberal state. The most notable difference between the organic society we strive for and the liberal conception of the state is that to the liberal, the state is something alien, something outside of himself, a force which intrudes upon his 'God-given' liberty and rights. To the supporter of the organic state, the state is fused and coordinated into a single living entity, a sort of higher individuality*. Out of a mass of atomized individuals is born a harmonious and differentiated society which works together for the greater good of the nation. This is the cure to the disintegration and civilization degeneracy that we are faced with today, alongside the more common solutions we all agree that are necessary (removing / gassing Jews, removing non-Whites, etc). *some people may read this and cry about "muh bug people" but this would be a massive misinterpretation and first they need to understand the idea of organic individuality and the different levels of it as discussed by people like Ernst Haeckel, Rudolf Leuckart, etc. >if we are as a movement so worthless that we must do as our enemies do to control their populace, and cannot do so without violating their very minds, what worth are we truly? None. 'Violating' minds is part of building any society. I wouldn't use that term though, obviously. If there is no acquiescence to a common way of life, norms and laws there is simply no society, there is an atomized, disconnected and sick mass - basically the type of society brought about by modernity. We can't be thinking of control, violation and similar ideas. This is why fascists support the totalitarian state. It is all-encompassing, embracing all within itself, creating a state is one with its people, a harmonious community. I can dig up quotes from Gentile if I have to. Force is part of every state, as I'm sure everyone can agree, but persuasion and education is just as important. We don't want to be forcing people at gunpoint until the end of time.
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Nice, thanks!
>>3854 I realise violating minds is a part of reforging society in the image we desire, but it doesn't go to the extent that social credit does, what we want is half achieved by letting a collapse occur anyway, so not much to argue there but the violation I am talking about is not what we want to do, I am all for forcing a change but I will not violate peoples privacy or attempt to control their thoughts to do so, nor will I allow that to happen if I have any say, i find it morally repugnant in a way I have yet to be able to articulate.
>>3859 First you say that "I realise violating minds is a part of reforging society in the image we desire" but then you almost immediately go on and say "I will not violate peoples privacy or attempt to control their thoughts to do so". You are opposed to social credit, which does not necessarily involve a change in thoughts, only actions, but you realize that violating minds is part of reforging the society we desire, so how are you against controlling / remolding thoughts? This is a blatant contradiction. This remolding matters far more than actions, and is more important than any individual scheme like social credit. Inner disposition and change of thought ideally will lead to change of actions, but as we've talked about above, there is undeniably a component of force (>>3748)
>>3877 It's not a contradiction, I am against taking away the illusion of the freedom of choice for the lemmings, here in America specifically where that illusion holds sway, as we begin to retake territory and cleanse it of those who do not belong or oppose us, people the general populace truly seem to hate, whether foreigners or leftists, my primary reason for maintaining this illusion for them is because it is well known that if people make a choice to do something they follow it to it's end, aa natural tendency of human nature in general so wemake them choose to support our cause even if they may disagree with some of it by propaganda, and revealing the truth through this means. If they feel the choice was theirs they will fall in line more easily than us bringing it to them by forcing it upon them even if that is what we are actually doing so long as they have that illusion things will move more smoothly and easily. Much of what i a talking about the collapse will do about half of our work for us, because once the illusion of comfort is shattered over our people they will gravitate towards tradition and eschew degeneracy we come in offering them the choice to join a cause that reflects this new change forced by nature and grants them the safety they truly crave beneath it all, even at some cost to themselves, or to be left to die, as degenerative things in nature tend to do. In reality if they chose against us it would be far more likely that we just purge them, but that is how it would be framed for their tiny little minds.
>>3891 What I've been describing would be a completed system, not taking into account set-up or dealing with particular decadent attitudes, such as those that are common with Americans. Living here myself, it's sometimes hard to believe that they aren't a totally lost cause. None of this would be able to be implemented instantaneously
>>3903 I hear you, I see hope and how people see what we are talking about without really seeing it all over, the truth is there it's just suppressed we just need to find the best way to bring it out.
>>3904 I am definitely not blackpilled. It will be harder in America, for sure, but America has not always been pozzed and it can become truly great again (and not in the kiked MIGA sense)
>>3907 I never would have thought you meant MIGA, at least not on here.
>>3854 >the organic society we strive for Then why are you advocating for Panopticon-lite, which is decidedly unnatural? Any sort of accurate social credit system would require significant surveillance and foster a slave mentality.
>>3954 You (or whoever else was saying that such a system was "unnatural") have yet to satisfactorily explain how such a thing is unnatural.
>>3967 It is not natural for humans to live under such a system, all the evidence you need is right there in china, they may be lesser than us but they share more similarity to us than we might like to admit, such a thing only encourages the behaviors you see there and White people are more naturally, and I hesitate to use this word, individualist than the Chinese, we have always prided self-sufficiency and self-reliance, if such a system only ends out more negative than positive for a more naturally collectivist people, how much worse will it be for those who chafe even under the state of things in the west now? for two we are not the Portuguese Man of War, nor a beehive, we are pack animals yes, but we do not sacrifice the potential for the emergence of a high quality individual among us for Unity at any cost. The entire Panopticon idea presumes that we will mantian and perhaps even expand the choking, cloying, disgusting, Urban centers we live in now, already an unnatural existence no matter how much we try to bring Nature into them, from what I have gathered from the breadth of Fascist and NatSoc people I have spoken to, we won't, it is far more likely we will devote cities to research and technological advancement making them and those who live within them utterly dependent on the external communities while expanding Suburban or rural communities, restricting cities to a manageable size and encouraging self sufficiency and clean living in harmony with nature in the smaller communities. If you do not view an artificially constructed Surveillance state as unnatural you fail to see what the core of this movement is about, returning our people to a more natural way of life and stamping out or minimizing the rampant degeneracy we see today, a surveillance state will not help us achieve that goal, and even if it could be useful the cons of even creating such a system far outwieigh any potential benefits, furthermore it is exactly what our enemies claim we want to do, using Orwell as the example, even though he was talking about our enemies and they are currently brainwashing our people to attempt to do exactly what he warned about themselves, do you want to become the enemy? or are you already?
>>3976 I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding something here since half your post is a giant strawman against something I'm not even arguing for. I've never advocated for a "Panopticon" unironically, nor anything like it. In fact, before your post here the term was only used twice in the thread, one as a characterization of my position by another poster, and another from me mentioning some bait post I made back in March. In fact, if I did advocate for a Panopticon in the legit sense, it wouldn't be anything like that term actually refers to, which Bentham only intended for hospitals, schools, factories and similar institutions to institute discipline, not so society-wide institution. Frankly I think such thing would be completely untenable, not that I have any sort of special opposition or anything. It should be common sense that we want to be reducing our energy usage as a society, because the path we are on now is going to kill us. As I've said half a dozen times now, I'm really not sure how this in particular would fit into my vision if at all. I think all options should absolutely be explored. >It is not natural for humans to live under such a system, all the evidence you need is right there in china I see no evidence for this claim. >we have always prided self-sufficiency and self-reliance Why do you think that I stand against these? Communities should be fairly self-sufficient in at least food at a community level. The fact that today retards can't even feed themselves without a supermarket to provide for them is an issue from no matter which way you look at it. This was common for most of history no matter where in the world you look. Now there are too many people, too big of cities, etc. >but we do not sacrifice the potential for the emergence of a high quality individual among us for Unity at any cost. Complete misunderstanding of both bees and Portuguese man o' wars. With bees, we have a division of labor and hierarchy. While it is strange to speak of "exceptional bees", we can be sure that each and every bee within its society is put in its proper place in regards to its nature. With the Portuguese man o' war we see a symbiotic association of microorganisms, each constituent zooid being functionally specialized in a specific role, whether this is defensive, locomotive, reproduction, or for eating. They are interdepedent and cover each others weaknesses in such an association, coming together as a more powerful and complex superorganism, much like a nation-state. The similarities between Hitler's Volksgemeinschaft and a Portuguese man o' war are much more than one would ever imagine, both are greater than the sum of their parts with a nature of their own.
>>3978 IF you are not advocating for a panoptican-like surveillance state then what the fuck are you advocating for? Thats what I was arguing against and no more or less, it is wholly unneccessary. I did not strawman you at any point, you flat out said that you were advocating for a surveillance state, i disagreed, if you think I strawmanned you perhaps you didn't convey what it is you are advocating for accurately and because of that my argument sounds strawmanned, when it isn't I built mine from what i have read you advocating through the entire thread. I don't really care about exactly how a beehive or the PMOW works, those things do not need to be forced to act the way that they do, we would and while i am all for a little force the amount and frequency we would need to model how one works is excessive and in my opinion wholly unnecessary.
>>3967 Man was not meant to live his life under a microscope. Until modernity, we didn't even have the capability of doing so except on extremely limited and targeted bases.
>>3979 >IF you are not advocating for a panoptican-like surveillance state then what the fuck are you advocating for? Perhaps the main issue here has to do with what is understood by "social credit system". I don't see the term as synonymous with Panopticon. As I see it, social credit system means that the state will reward you with various things for certain behaviors like giving blood, volunteering in the community, having children (especially a lot of children), while those who are actively anti-social and parasitic on the community would be "punished" and have less means available to them to use. I don't think you necessarily need a surveillance state much bigger than today or even a few decades ago for something like this to work, especially given what I said in the second paragraph here >>3739 and then there is of course this post >>3786 where I say " I see areas where it [i.e. something like social credit] could possibly be applied, but again the main issue will be deciding where if anywhere this would be most beneficial for the society that we aim at creating." Things got somewhat convoluted by us and others veering off into stuff about consent, Laws of Nature, etc. >I don't really care about exactly how a beehive or the PMOW works, those things do not need to be forced to act the way that they do That is the point — by bringing these things up in the first place I've been saying that the racial collective is an instinctual superorganism'. Everyone knows that humans aren't as gregarious as fucking bees and siphonophores, this is why we have laws, courts and government, while these creatures just do what they should. The issue is today that through an infestation of our nations by a hostile racial collective of Semites, we are being broken down into atomized individuals, demoralized, degenerated. The struggle for existence first and foremost operates on the level of racial groups and nations, this is why the Jew is breaking us down into atomized parts with no connections, no culture, no traditions. It's Jewish terror propaganda, see >>3257. What needs to be done is a destruction of the liberal state, removal / gassing of Jews, removal of non-Whites so that a projection of gradually cultivating true, healthy and natural organic nations can be cultivated / repaired.
>>3982 If you mean to encourage with Social or Civil rewards for exemplary behavior, that's fine, don't call it Social Credit then, that falls under the necessary social engineering to even create a Nation-State in the first place, Everyone has that shit, including America. You may be right on the Instinctual superorganism but I am unwilling to exercise unrelenting force, to force it, if it turns out not to be how it all works, short of that, if you are right, all will fall into place naturally.
>>3983 >If you mean to encourage with Social or Civil rewards for exemplary behavior, that's fine, don't call it Social Credit then Fair. >You may be right on the Instinctual superorganism but I am unwilling to exercise unrelenting force, to force it The biggest issue is wiping away decades of Jewish subversion propaganda. Force should always be used sparingly. Just think of how Hitler worked in the Third Reich. Granted most of what he had to fix in regards to people and groups had to do only with Jews and Communists, but the state of decay was much less advanced. There will doubtlessly need to be some technocratic solutions in fixing things. In talking about all of this though, it's important to remember that lemmings / NPCs always follow the elite so long as they are able to provide for them and keep the society stable. This will always hold true for 95%+ of the population. They are much less attached to their views than one would think, as they have never given any serious thought to why they believe what they do.
>>3985 Then we agree, in pretty much every way, there was never an argument here to begin with. Good practice then.
>>3989 >there was never an argument here to begin with I feel like this happens a lot with me here. Maybe I'm just autistic
>>4028 If so it's not really a problem, I've ended up in similar situations, it's good practice at any rate so no harm done.
>>4036 >it's good practice at any rate That's definitely true. Sometimes the misunderstandings that others have force one to find ways to clarify their thinking or even realize where there are flaws in their thinking, so it's usually worth it.
>>3739 >You're born into a society and you are obliged to obey. Then why are you here? Your views are contradictory.
>>6088 This is every society on the planet.
No fuck China, I hope the CCP and Hong Kong niggers burn.
>>2643 >In fact ironically most communist nations (Or at least ones that claim to be communist) have seemed seemed have been more fascistic and cared more about their race than any modern day western nation Certainly not in Europe. Jews are always motivated by a seething hatred of Whites. Some people tried to rationalize Pol Pot but he actually rekt'd his country and its culture too. The Cuba gang was not serious and merely a card kept under the palm for the hidden international alliance between capitalism and communism, to find a scapegoat if they were ready to push for a war that would have totally ruined White nations. Fortunately, Jews didn't manage to maintain their power long enough in the USSR because communism simply is a shit model for economics, and the burden of drain by parasites was too fast. They clearly learned from this mistake and avoided a repeat in the USSA. If you need to use needles to teach good posture, then your race sucks. >>2651 >Remember, Jew build PRC That.
>>6098 >Some people tried to rationalize Pol Pot but he actually rekt'd his country and its culture too. If anything Pol Pot was based only unintentionally. I highly doubt that he had any sort of environmental motives in what he did that people usually celebrate him for today. The anti-urbanism, BTFO'ing of Muslims, and mass expulsions of foreigners is commendable, but overall he's shitty.
>>6094 I guess fuck paki and india in that similar vein.
>>6100 I still stand by what Pol Pot did
>>6154 >Kill every single teacher, doctor and investigator >Even the commie ones aligned to you >The only government workers are soldiers turned taxmen and the politician who are basically regional mob bosses >End up killing half of your country's male population of working age, most of them the smart enough ones to open a book >Get invaded by commies to stop making them look bad
>>6155 We have to remember that conditions were already horrible in the country before Pol Pot came to power, since there was an ongoing civil war between Communists and Lon Nol's government, and since agricultural was completely devastated by U.S. bombing, leading to mass deaths and later starvation. The cities were overflowing with refugees from the countryside, so the decision was made to empty out of the cities and resettle the urbanites on the land to make them work as well. Alongside the urgent need to prevent mass-starvation within urban areas, the anti-foreignerism of the CPK rightfully saw the cities as foreign-dominated centers of corruption and capitalism. So the cities were emptied, and the urbanites put to work. It turns out that they were useless though. Some could adapt, others couldn't do shit, and were either killed or died from the work-load. Just imagine the soyboys and college whores of today having to work in rice-paddies. This explains the death of many in the professional class. The numbers are completely exaggerated too. It's yet another genocide that is so true that you are unable to question it in Cambodia. For ten years after DK was toppled by the Vietnamese, the Vietnamese occupied the country and peddled their genocide hoax to the population to justify their occupation. The Internationalists succeeded in toppling a fiercely nationalistic, racialist state aiming for autarky and self-reliance. >Get invaded by commies to stop making them look bad The Vietnamese were an Internationalist-aligned force whose goal it was to amalgam Cambodia into a supranational (((Indochina Federation))) under Vietnamese domination. They got increasingly upset that Pol Pot expelled every single Vietnamese person from his lands, killed the remainders, and took it upon himself to make sure that the lands of ancestral Kampuchea Krom were retained. Even today many Khmer live there, called Khmer Krom. The orthodox Marxists in the CPK who had been trained and kept in Hanoi were all exterminated as well, because they opposed the radical measures that Pol Pol and his inner circle were taking, such as abolishing money, instituting communal dining, outlawing adultery, killing Muslims and fighting with Vietnam.
>>6171 >We have to remember that conditions were already horrible in the country before Pol Pot came to power, since there was an ongoing civil war between Communists and Lon Nol's government, and since agricultural was completely devastated by U.S. bombing, leading to mass deaths and later starvation So destroying more of your own country and people saves it? > So the cities were emptied, and the urbanites put to work. It turns out that they were useless though. Some could adapt, others couldn't do shit, and were either killed or died from the work-load. Just imagine the soyboys and college whores of today having to work in rice-paddies. What a rationalization. They may be half men, but even soyboys could be made useful in humane working conditions. They'd become stronger, physically more fit and get used to a rather very sane way of life outside. Any agricultural policy that drives people to die in rice fields is obviously retarded. It might have more to do with the poor nutritive quality of rice and a failure in outputs, which were too low, leading to a famine. Besides, for purely political reasons, I would hate to take away from the commies what is generally admitted as a terrible time leading to many deaths, only to make it look like some kind of fascist government through revisionism. Abolishing money is silly in a modern society unless you're living in a form of post-scarcity world full of 3D printers that can output anything at literally close to no cost, otherwise you still need to have a mean of exchange, at the very least barter. The use of bonds would be acceptable too. Money is just that practical, so people who keep complaining about "fiat money" just don't get it at all.
Is Russia or China more fascist?
>>6241 I can't bring myself to say that either of them are more or less, honestly. I don't want to sully fascism by applying it like that >>6175 > I would hate to take away from the commies what is generally admitted as a terrible time leading to many deaths /leftypol/ claims that DK was CIA-backed.
>>2941 >All muslim countries hate China Some chink told me that Uyghurs weren't being genocided and that most Muslim countires have no ill will towards China.
>>6241 Neither of them are fascist they are both kiked, Putin is jew owned and so is the CCP with their support of Israel and the head of the state going to Israel. There are no fascist countries sadly, but we shouldn't strive and shill for nations that are close or seem fascist, but seek to create them ourselves because the entire world is fucked by liberalism and communism.
>>6241 Russia is a neo-cohen wet dream and China is living proof that Communism is just state-ran Capitalism.
>>6250 Worthy of consideration. Link please?
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>>6565 The claim has to do not with Democratic Kampuchea (as I mistakenly wrote) but with the Khmer Rouge and Pot after they were ousted from power in 1979 by the Vietnamese. The Khmer Rouge fled to Thailand and continued to carry about guerilla warfare in the years afterwards. In the 80s they even renounced communism: >In 1981 the PDK officially renounced communism. [...] The renunciation of communism meant little in practice. CPK propaganda had always relied on nationalist rather than revolutionary appeals https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/46657/GS24.pdf

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