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Cuckquean Games and Gaming Cuckqueans Anonymous 03/26/2022 (Sat) 07:49:36 No.3267
Games about, with, during cuckqueaning - this thread's for 'em all! Cuckqueaning-related discussion about games? Also here! Other dedicated threads: - The Last Sovereign, a very queany RPGmaker game, at >>905
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So this isn't a story really, but I've been playing a text based game called free cities for a while now and I've been doing so with a cuckquean flair. It's a game about running an anarchocapitalist city state in a rapidly deteriorating world, and the gameplay is a slave training economic management game. I set up the MC as my crush, and add myself as a slavegirl. I then play through the game from the perspective of the leader of the city, building a personal harem of slaves as my slavegirl avatar carries out her duties as the head girl, helping to break in the other girls by helping them realize that master's dick is the thing they were missing in life. Because I'm messed up, start out by knocking up slavegirl me followed immediately by placing her into chastity. All other slavegirls are sterilized since they aren't fit for breeding stock, but master needs pussy while I'm belted. I then go on to build an advanced growth machine that can rapidly age people (the sci-fi stuff in the game is a little weird, but enables hot scenarios so I don't mind). I then place my daughter(s) in the pod, age her to 18 in a matter of weeks, have her impregnated, and continue to grow the harem. In time I move all the harem members that arent my daughters into the servants quarters, where they clean for the master and our daughters. In the fucktoy suite, we work hard every day to drain every drop of his cum and bear new daughters to please him. I make pretty much all my money by selling clips of the sex around the penthouse, so I'm essentially funding this extravagant cuckquean lifestyle by making quckquean pornography for the masses. The whole scenario is super hot to me so I fire up the game every now and again, play for a while, and then put it down until there's a new update. The original game was built around the player whoring out their slaves, something which does not fit my harem dream, and while the autists over at hgg have modded in some stuff that makes it easier to avoid whoring girls out I still feel like I'm playing the game on a harder difficulty by not doing so. I also would love it if i had more control over my slavegirl persona, because while I like playing through the master's eyes since it's the perfect view screen for all the girls he's dicking down I'd also really love to be able to somehow veto her actions if I don't like what she does. The game is also sorely lacking any kind of explicit cuckquean fetish content, so I don't get any scenes of my daughters getting knocked up by their father while I watch longingly from the door to the room. I cant actually recommend the game unless you really like management simulators or sex slavery, since that's the core of what it's about, but I get some serious pleasure out of twisting the game to generate my little cuckquean stories while I balance my spreadsheets. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 01/27/2022 (Thu) 06:40:56.]
>>3268 >Free Cities Oh shit, I remember that game! I tried it out back when it was still on its mainline development because I am an absolute sucker for management games AND naughty games. It was fun, as long as I used some imagination and glossed over some of the distasteful but compulsory things. Like you, I found the fact that the game's early economy is based around whoring out the slaves to be pretty boring, but there was enough else in there to be entertaining for a while. I also made a Head Girl who was based on me, but the mechanic of giving the HG her own personal slave to play with just... kinda ended up squicking me out so I held off doing it while "I" held the position. But it was such an advantageous mechanic that I didn't want to be without it, so what I ended up doing was training up an "apprentice" HG from a promising slavegirl, filling the position of Recruiter for a while, then transferring myself to the private suite as the Concubine. That paid off later when I ended up appearing in that event where the PC visits a big old-world sporting event (can't remember which sport)... the person who wrote it probably never intended anyone to be seeing it from anyone other than the PC's view, but it still gave me big warm fuzzies by accident. I think my game ended up with three main groups of slaves: First were the high-spec private fucktoys I'd grab, put in chastity, educate, and then have delivered straight to the suite for my master. That lead to some nice fantasy fuel, especially since the game lets you play dress-up with them. Second were the high-position slaves, who I'd carefully select and train for leadership and special roles. Then the rest were usually the "working" slaves, who'd be out doing all the usual mechanical roles like whoring, slutting, and whatever else. I only did that because it was necessary; I guess for many players the thought of putting slavegirls in those roles is fun, but I got nothing out of it. I think that the later game reduced them in importance once big investments start coming online, so that was good. I remember there was also an event where the in-game AI assistant offers to make itself more approachable by adopting a more self-aware female persona, and when that happened I kinda half-projected into it for a while, imagining that it was the concubine-me who was being helpful by giving my master all these status updates, tweaking training, controlling the smart piercings, watching through the penthouse's cameras, and so on. That was fun. I felt like most of the game's fetishes just slid right by me, though. I've no interest in the very extreme artificial modifications/mutilations/implants the game allows, nor in the whole obliged-to-feed-through-dildos genre of fantasy (I did end up enabling that, though, because it was mechanically advantageous), nor the hucow stuff, etc. I pretty much always ended up selecting boring but happy future societies like Paternalism and Body Purism, probably because of my strongly compersive streak. I'd enter the medical menu and the game would be all "alright, <heavy breathing> the new slavegirl is strapped down, which of these really fucked up things would you like to do to her? I can totally blind her or pump her full of silicon or snip her vocal cords if, uh, you want..." and I'd be all "what the fuck, no, don't do... that! Any of that! Just repair the poor thing's Achilles tendons, fill her with curatives, put in the standard piercing, and maybe give her a haircut, Jesus fuckin' Christ..." But, hypocrite that I am, I did enjoy the branding. I decided that that was something special reserved only for the in-game me and my closest suite-sisters. Oh! One of the other things I liked about the game was the little "inspection" mode it had, where you could call over one of the slavegirls and have her do different things. I found I could make that pretty 'queany with a bit of imagination. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 01/27/2022 (Thu) 08:52:51.]
>>3268 >>3271 (cont.) >Because I'm messed up, start out by knocking up slavegirl me followed immediately by placing her into chastity. All other slavegirls are sterilized since they aren't fit for breeding stock, but master needs pussy while I'm belted. I then go on to build an advanced growth machine that can rapidly age people (the sci-fi stuff in the game is a little weird, but enables hot scenarios so I don't mind). I then place my daughter(s) in the pod, age her to 18 in a matter of weeks, have her impregnated, and continue to grow the harem. In time I move all the harem members that arent my daughters into the servants quarters, where they clean for the master and our daughters. In the fucktoy suite, we work hard every day to drain every drop of his cum and bear new daughters to please him. Huh, I don't remember that stuff being possible. I guess it was added or modded in later. (Those poor other girls though!) I'm guessing you chose one of the incest-focused future society options? >I make pretty much all my money by selling clips of the sex around the penthouse, so I'm essentially funding this extravagant cuckquean lifestyle by making quckquean pornography for the masses. Absolutely brilliant move. >the autists over at hgg have modded in some stuff that makes it easier to avoid whoring girls out What sort of things have they added? >I also would love it if i had more control over my slavegirl persona, because while I like playing through the master's eyes since it's the perfect view screen for all the girls he's dicking down I'd also really love to be able to somehow veto her actions if I don't like what she does. Yeah, that would be good, but then it'd fundamentally be a very different kind of game. I solved it by putting "me" into the private suite as soon as I could, but that only meant that "I" didn't do very much after that. We are the nicheiest of niche audiences, after all. >The game is also sorely lacking any kind of explicit cuckquean fetish content, so I don't get any scenes of my daughters getting knocked up by their father while I watch longingly from the door to the room. I remember a little bit of voyeurism being in there, particularly an event where a slavegirl can get a new fetish after she curiously peeks on the PC with another slavegirl who already has the fetish, but yeah - there's basically nothing. Once a girl is promoted to Concubine she pretty much stops existing as far as the game's events and descriptions are concerned. I think that's a shame. I somehow managed to exceed the post word limit. Good job on the text sex game autism, me. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 01/27/2022 (Thu) 09:19:01 UTC.]
>>3271 >the mechanic of giving the HG her own personal slave to play with just... kinda ended up squicking me out I rarely feel compelled to play optimally, and I feel like these kinds of things aren't really required anymore based on my understanding of the current game meta. A subordinate slave for the head gal can make her a little more effective, but the majority of slave training was being done by the MC anyway, so I never felt like the buff was mandatory. >nor in the whole obliged-to-feed-through-dildos genre of fantasy (I did end up enabling that, though, because it was mechanically advantageous) The dildo suppositories/feeding increases resistance in unbroken slaves which is when breaking is hardest with the main benefit being giving them oral/anal fetishes, when the fetishes I want to induce are pregnancy in the daughter harem, submissive in most slaves, and role specific fetishes for leaders like the head teacher and head of the servants’ quarters. > Then the rest were usually the "working" slaves, who'd be out doing all the usual mechanical roles like whoring, slutting, and whatever else. I only did that because it was necessary I’ve found I now never have to whore a girl out, ever. I usually put the MC into hacking background and spend a couple early weeks building wealth with that so I can buy a weapons factory. You gain passive wealth as a percentage of how much cash you have on hand (it used to be the opposite, this change was a big deal for me), and porn income builds over time per girl. In short order I'm raking in enough money to cover expenses and then some, and I use leftover cash to buy menials and upgrades for the factory until I can make a slaving corporation to make me oodles of cash and fuel the more expensive stuff like the rapid aging tanks. And I play on the highest economic difficulty; if you play on lower difficulties it makes this easier to have a raunchy, fun time with less worry about optimal play. I like the gameplay so I like the challenge, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing on easy so you can have more fun. Games should be fun, after-all. >I remember there was also an event where the in-game AI assistant offers to make itself more approachable by adopting a more self-aware female persona, and when that happened I kinda half-projected into it for a while I actually insert my best friend into that role! I name the AI after her and together we help run the harem, train the girls, and keep our man satisfied. it feels more appropriate for a friend, because later on that AI starts thinking of the suite's sex toys as extensions of herself, so she's fucking the other girls and I don't get to do that. Instead, I'm denied in the corner with both holes in chastity, getting artificially inseminated while all the other girls get to enjoy my man's dick. It's heaven. >I felt like most of the game's fetishes just slid right by me, though. Same, but the general vibe of harem building really does it for me. I have a strong mothering drive though, so the idea of taking in these downtrodden gals displaced by war and famine, healing their injuries, sometimes replacing lost limbs, uplifting them to where they can work a job (for no pay, but still full room and board) maintaining the crown jewel of this technological marvel and get to suck on the master's crown jewels at the same time, that just feels right and just. They're slaves, yes, but being property doesn't exclude them from being people. I don't sell girls on unless it's to a good life, like a mercenary wants to marry them and they buy out their slave contract, or I need more room for my daughters, so I send some others girls to another arcology where they'll be treated well, re-rolling bids until I get something where she'll be treated right. I never sell my daughters, but there are plenty of gals who come in via event, and I'll pick up indentured slaves sometimes because at the end of their term they beg to be enslaved because they love my man so much. That little event always pulls at my heartstrings and grows the harem. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 01/27/2022 (Thu) 20:37:59 UTC.]
>>3272 >>3273 (Cont.) >I'm guessing you chose one of the incest-focused future society options? I don't, actually! The incest focused one has a strong focus on slaves in incestuous relationships with eachother, and that detracts from the focus on our shared man. It also leads to events where old-world incest couples apply to become slaves, hoping to protect their relationship. While I support their relationship, those people have no place in the harem. Wish I had an option to sponsor them as citizens, but I’m too lazy to write that. My societies are paternalism, slimness enthusiasm, youth preferentialism, neo-imperialism, with the fifth as a toss-up between gender fundamentalism, slave professionalism, and chattel religionism. I run paternalism because as noted above, these girls are people. They deserve an education, a bed to sleep in, and a roof over their head. They serve because they adore the MC, and I aim to have them all emotionally bonded to him. I only allow my daughters and I to marry him, but he can avail themselves of the servant girls all he wants, that's his right, and they get to bask in his glory too. Slimness enthusiasm because I'm a normal gal with pretty normal assets, but I love the idea of my (imaginary) man getting it on with trim, athletic chestlets. That gym bunny you see on the treadmill effortlessly flying through miles? That kind of gal. You know she can ride his dick all day and just keep going. Youth pref because guys like younger gals, that's just science. It also opens science options where I can stop physical aging, so we can all be young and hot forever. Neo-Imp improves military power and has hierarchical power structure flavor that I like. It'd probably be better named as neo-feudalism, but of all the revivals it's the most palatable to me because it doesn't come with any racial overtones (I don't care for all that) and has easy requirements: have money and be trained in warfare. I plop the arcology in Germany and call it the Neo-Hanseatic League. I don’t have strong feelings for a fifth, gender fund gives bonuses for preg girls and makes more ladies show up in slave events, and I don’t keep boys in the harem so that suits me fine. Slave prof likes smart girls, I educate my girls, it’s a good fit. Religionism uses religion to gain legitimacy for the regime; this is historically a strong source of legitimacy for governments and I’m a religious girl, but it doesn’t make it in regularly because I like letting the girls dress themselves and under this one they always pick the same outfit. Sometimes I pick multicultural because I can’t be assed to pick a fifth. >What sort of things have they added? It’s a fair deal now. The original project was to add more pregnancy flavor and options for hyper pregnancy with way too many babies in one womb. That mod merged with loli mod, which is appropriately named. The scope has expanded with time, they added more future societies, new events, they redid the game in JS so it runs better, improved mod content for militarily defending the city from outside forces, added a private military corp to expand your sphere of influence, added genetically engineered catgirls, horn implants, prehensile tails, and other stuff I’m sure I’m forgetting right now. They removed a bunch of the surprise anal stuff because for some reason hgg hates that shit and sees removing it as a huge improvement. I don’t really get it, but if you’re in that camp you’ll like those changes. The current main advance being worked on it making the MC a real character with all the variables that a slave currently has, which opens up a ton more customization options for him and helps him feel more real. I like playing dress up on the girls and being able to have more control of the MC stats makes him feel less like those blank face self inserts in hentai, but that content is all WIP right now. The underage and hyperpreg stuff is all behind super easy toggles, so I just turn it off and benefit from the preg content I like and all the other stuff without having to engage in my squicks. With the main branch no longer being developed, they are keeping a game I love alive and I'm so appreciative for that. >Once a girl is promoted to Concubine she pretty much stops existing as far as the game's events and descriptions are concerned. There's an event now where the concubine will go on an old-world talk show and with the right stats she will promote life as a sex slave to the audience with masterful flair. I love that event. However, the event is pretty much always the same, so while it's neat it isn't enough to pull me out of head girl role. There's more day-to-day interaction with head girl so I have more self insert fun. My firstborn daughter gets to be concubine, so it's still my blood doing the promoting anyway. There's another event where we go out with some other daughters to see an opera or go to a casino with our man, to rub shoulders with the elite and show off to everyone how lucky we are to be his slaves. That's neat too, if repetitive after a while. [01/27/2022 (Thu) 2
>>3273 >I rarely feel compelled to play optimally, and I feel like these kinds of things aren't really required anymore based on my understanding of the current game meta. Oh, that's interesting. I think the reason you used to have to do it was because it gave the HG an extra action? The last time I played was years ago, so my memory of why and when I did any given thing is a little hazy. But I do remember the initial establishment stage being a little dicey, in that it was very easy to fall into debt and lose the game if you didn't get whores on streets ASAP. >dildo suppositories/feeding increases resistance in unbroken slaves which is when breaking is hardest That makes sense. I think once I had a well-established prison block, I established rules for the prison/spa/school that took care of the initial breaking and basic training for me, so the feeding and medicine weren't an issue. Oral and anal fetishes were, of course, useful for the working slaves to have. >the fetishes I want to induce are pregnancy in the daughter harem, submissive in most slaves, and role specific fetishes for leaders like the head teacher and head of the servants’ quarters Aside, even though the whole exponential daughter-harem thing isn't a fantasy I'd enjoy at all, I find myself admiring your commitment to it. >I’ve found I now never have to whore a girl out, ever. I usually put the MC into hacking background and spend a couple early weeks building wealth with that so I can buy a weapons factory. You gain passive wealth as a percentage of how much cash you have on hand (it used to be the opposite, this change was a big deal for me), and porn income builds over time per girl. Sounds like playing outside the old standard whoring route is much easier now. It never really did make sense to me that an arcology owner would be deriving most of his income from prostituting out a (relatively small, compared to total arco population) stable of sex slaves even though he's the lord of a self-contained city-state. Like, shouldn't the arcology itself be the source of most of his wealth? Moving a lot of the basic investment in the arcology to the earlier game makes a lot more sense. >later on that AI starts thinking of the suite's sex toys as extensions of herself, so she's fucking the other girls That's right, I remember that part now! I think that was when I stopped identifying with her since I'm not at all interested in fucking the other girls - that's my man's job. >denied in the corner with both holes in chastity, getting artificially inseminated while all the other girls get to enjoy my man's dick. It's heaven. There's even artificial insemination? I shouldn't be surprised at that kind of thoroughness in this kind of game, yet I can't help but respect the commitment these devs/contributors have to giving players so many options. I personally like chastity belts because I think they're pretty and because of the control they impose rather than their potential for denial, but it doesn't make much sense from a gameplay perspective to be able to set something like "this one concubine-slave is to be belted but will still be able to have sex with the PC because being belted makes her feel happy and safe, plus being unlocked before sex is amazing foreplay". >the general vibe of harem building really does it for me That's why I kept playing in spite of the things I didn't like, my general love of management games aside. >I have a strong mothering drive though, so the idea of taking in these downtrodden gals displaced by war and famine, healing their injuries, sometimes replacing lost limbs, uplifting them That's a good way of putting it. I remember there was an event where you end up taking possession of some particularly abused slaves from a defaulting debtor. The way the game described their reactions to having their mutilations reversed really tugged at me. I really like that the game puts so much effort into describing the effects of high devotion. Being able to imagine the penthouse as such a safe, happy, and absolutely lewd environment makes me feel floaty and good. >I'll pick up indentured slaves sometimes because at the end of their term they beg to be enslaved because they love my man so much. hnnng [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 01/28/2022 (Fri) 04:27:44 UTC.]
>>3274 >>3275 (cont.) >The incest focused one has a strong focus on slaves in incestuous relationships with eachother, and that detracts from the focus on our shared man. I had a little look over on /hgg/ and saw that all development is being done under the PregMod name, like you say. Seems a little surprising that someone hasn't yet added some kind of future society option that's based on the kind of family harem arrangement you made, what with the game having so much pregnancy content added so much care taken with the growing tanks to allow offspring to reach maturity within the game's timeframe. I mean, that has to be a fantasy that some of the other players also have. >I run paternalism because as noted above, these girls are people Sounds like you run it for the same reasons I do. I've never liked the mutilated abused bimbo fantasy; I'd much rather my man be awash in a sea of intelligent, joyful, devoted other girls. I guess I still believe in happy endings. The one thing I disliked about paternalism was its outfit, which I seem to remember being kind of boring. Bunnysuits are the dress of true moral intellectuals in my man's city, thank you very much! >trim, athletic chestlets Can confirm that Energizer Bunnies make for delightful vixens. >Youth pref because guys like younger gals, that's just science. It also opens science options where I can stop physical aging, so we can all be young and hot forever. When you put it likethat, well, it's just natural! Plus I imagine it works well with your daughter-harem strategy. >Neo-Hanseatic League Anon. Playing complicated HTML sex slavery management games as fantasy fuel is one thing, but this... you... you nerd! >Religionism >I like letting the girls dress themselves and under this one they always pick the same outfit I remember this! I thought the religion society seemed a good fit so I kicked it off, then overnight found all the slavegirls changing into an ugly all-concealing habit and society disapproving if I had them wear anything pretty or sexy. It just didn't make sense, given what else that society wanted done to the slaves >It’s a fair deal now. Wow, that is a lot of work they've done. Admirable. Wait, is that... >added genetically engineered catgirls, horn implants, prehensile tails, and other stuff I’m sure I’m forgetting right now >added genetically engineered catgirls, horn implants, prehensile tails, and other stuff >added genetically engineered catgirls, horn implants, prehensile tails >added genetically engineered catgirls, horn implants >added genetically engineered catgirls WHAT Damnit Anon, I'm too busy to commit to trying this game out again! >The current main advance being worked on it making the MC a real character with all the variables that a slave currently has, which opens up a ton more customization options for him and helps him feel more real. Oh, that's wonderful! If I'm honest, though, I just pasted my man over the blank-slate PC. Having the game call out more aspects of the PC other than LIEK CIGAR and IS TALL would be fun, but it's not something I found myself wishing for. I'd just use it to do what I was already doing just fine in my own head. >repetitive after a while. Yep, that was pretty much my impression of all fucktoy and concubine events when I played. The whole fucktoy and concubine thing was pretty thin when I played, mechanically speaking. Perhaps the problem is that every player imagines their "inner sanctum" working a little bit differently, and that the game really has no way to track that sort of thing? I know I'd feel quite jolted if an event triggered that completely contradicted my own little private suite fantasy. Maybe the various devs/writers who've contributed to it didn't quite know how to write something that was so personal to players. On the other hand they seem to have managed the sporting event just fine, as well as these talk show and opera events, so I think there's definite potential there. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 01/28/2022 (Fri) 05:17:20 UTC.]
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>>3275 >I think the reason you used to have to do it was because it gave the HG an extra action? Oh yea, it still does that, but I didn't feel incentivized to use it. I have to lose a whole girl in order to get that bonus, and in the early game I cant spare a girl for that. Later, when I can, I do more training with the MC and use the head girl for support. I guess I could give her a subordinate, I just don't. Probably because I'm bad >Aside, even though the whole exponential daughter-harem thing isn't a fantasy I'd enjoy at all, I find myself admiring your commitment to it. I've been playing this game for a long time, and over that time my fetish interests in the game have changed. in vanilla, impregnating your children isn't really possible given the game's time scale so I didn't even think about it. As the years have passed and more has been added I've had tons of time to iterate my gameplay style and find the fun, and I sure have found a lot of fun. The daughter harem is my favorite way to play, but I think the only playstyle I haven't tried is degredationalist since i just cant bring myself to do that. >it never really did make sense to me that an arcology owner would be deriving most of his income from prostituting out a (relatively small, compared to total arco population) stable of sex slaves even though he's the lord of a self-contained city-state. Far as I can tell, this has to do with the original author's fetishes. He was making a brothel management game, essentially, so it made sense to him. That's also why there are feminized men in the game as sex slaves, because he was into that, as well as the surprise buttsex thing. He even changed the slave diet to be all liquid so there wouldn't be any solid waste to get in the way of the surprise buttsex. I don't really care that he made a game to cater to his tastes, I know I would if I was making a game, but I'm also glad the game is easily moddable so things people don't like can be removed. >There's even artificial insemination? Like MANY things in this game, it's not an easy option to find. It's under the auto-surgery, lower body section. Pic related. >>3108 >Seems a little surprising that someone hasn't yet added some kind of future society option that's based on the kind of family harem arrangement you made Not to trust my crummy memory, but I don't think I've seen anyone express a desire for societal support for this. Also, most people who want stuff done just throw out suggestions rather than doing work to make it happen and I don't wana be a leech. Since I cant mod in JS yet I have to wait until I can learn the new system before I try to flesh that out. >you... you nerd! This is why I play autistic porn games instead of getting a boyfriend. But I believe that some day, my mastery of autistic porn games and obscure history facts will help me woo the man of my dreams. Or I'll become a crazy cat lady, either works for me. >The one thing I disliked about paternalism was its outfit, which I seem to remember being kind of boring. Bunnysuits are the dress of true moral intellectuals in my man's city, thank you very much! Not sure if this was in the game for you, but there's a wardrobe option that lets you import the clothing options you want. So bunny suits will always be on the menu for you, pic also related. >found all the slavegirls changing into an ugly all-concealing habit and society disapproving if I had them wear anything pretty or sexy. I know right? Though while it's concealing, it is easy access. So the opposite of skinny jeans I guess? I like a lot of the dialog flavor, I just also want the option for girls to walk around in cute lingerie ya know? or bunny suits! >Damnit Anon, I'm too busy to commit to trying this game out again! Catgirls are late game and there's a whole event chain for developing the tech and getting people to not freak out about your wild experiments, so I wouldn't recommend trying it again just for the catgirls. I don't see much coming down the pike at least until they're done with the player character rework, and all the other new stuff will still be there when you have time. They also JUST changed the rules assistant AGAIN so waiting around can give them time to iron out the kinks in the new system. I try to play with a low number of girls since I generally plan to keep the girls rather than train and sell like some people do. This gives me more time to customize each girl, but even with a restricted number of slaves I enjoy the automation provided by the RA. >The whole fucktoy and concubine thing was pretty thin when I played, mechanically speaking. That makes a lot of sense actually, I always thought that that mechanically, the fucktoys don't play into other systems and so are sidelined. With the whoring and public service slaves their performance impacts your bottom line or respect income, but fucktoys just give a passive rep increase based on their beauty stats and some multipliers. There are no variables to mix up the weeks, so who cares, right? [Posting time 01/2
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>>3277 >over that time my fetish interests in the game have changed. If I may ask, Anon, what was your original fetish interest in the game? >He was making a brothel management game When I think about it, Free Cities is part of the same lineage of slave/prostitute trainer/raiser games that includes the venerable Slave Maker.swf and Sim Brothel.swf, both lovingly cobbled together from stolen low-resolution anime fanart jpegs and paperclips in the Internet's Middle Ages. Building brothel management into such games is thus, in a way, the expected default. The rest of FC was built atop that genre core. >even changed the slave diet to be all liquid so there wouldn't be any solid waste to get in the way of the surprise buttsex That's a fairly common workaround in very sexual settings, I suspect; some of one's audience is not going to be able to stomach anal without the guarantee that shit will never involve itself. If your fetish requires a 24/7 guaranteed ability to do squeaky clean anal at a moment's notice without any pre-cleansing then it's got to be a liquid, intravenous, or magical-energy diet. It seems like whenever I take a peak over at /monster/, for example, some anon is freaking out about anal and some other anon is reassuring them that a monster girl's anus is a purely sexual organ because monster girls subsist off harvested spiritual energy (cum). Anyway. >It's under the auto-surgery, lower body section. Huh. Genuinely surprised someone thought to put it in. Maybe it was originally intended for the human livestock-enjoyers? >I believe that some day, my mastery of autistic porn games and obscure history facts will help me woo the man of my dreams. Can't criticize this since it kinda worked for me. Exposure to amateur ero-swfs wasn't the sole or even the main factor, but it wasn't unhelpful. >bunny suits will always be on the menu for you, pic also related >modest outfit That's the one I was talking about! I remember it being sensible clothing that a sex slave could wear to Sunday dinner. Ol' fashioned country slave-food, fresh out of the dildo. Hurry up and say grace, ma, the drug-laced cum-slurry's getting cold! Honestly, why does a degenerate game about sex slaves somehow think that treating them well and improving them under Paternalism means that they suddenly get the option to cover up and dress sensibly? No matter how modestly you uniform them, they're still offering themselves up as public service in the nightclub! Not that I'm against clothing slaves in nice, modest, smart dresses, but I don't think it should have been a Paternalism unlock. >Catgirls are late game and there's a whole event chain I am not without disappointment, but I should be glad that I won't have another thing I mean to play but don't. Just how deeply is the catness of the catgirls integrated? On the one hand I love the idea of catgirls, but I also detest the idea of catgirls being born into a world like FC where many of them will end up abused. >I enjoy the automation provided by the RA The RA kept me playing much longer than I would have otherwise, since my interest in finely twiddling the girls' settings starts and ends at dressing them up and playing with their appearances. >fucktoys just give a passive rep increase based on their beauty stats and some multipliers. There are no variables to mix up the weeks, so who cares, right? I do! I would have liked to see fucktoys and the Concubine integrated into some other mechanical system to make them a little more actively involved. Like playing into some kind of PC stress system, perhaps, or involvement in something like the arcology's corps diplomatique, or even managing the PR activities that get you all that reputation since I don't buy that it accrues simply by having them stashed away in your suite. It'd just be nice to have the Concubine do something for the game other than exist. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 01/31/2022 (Mon) 17:14:18 UTC.]
>>3278 >If I may ask, Anon, what was your original fetish interest in the game? Sex slavery! I came to free cities from Jack-o-Nine after development slowed down on that game, and I was mostly just interested in taking normal girls and turning them into sex addicted nymphos. I'm not self inserting, you're self inserting! I also didn't really know I was into Cuckquean at the time, so as I figured that out I started exploring some of those feelings through the game and it gradually because less about building a harem for the harem's sake and became more about building a harem for my man's sake. >Maybe it was originally intended for the human livestock-enjoyers? That's a pretty solid guess I think. The RA can hook into surgery, so maybe they added an option so it could be automated? But I also know there's another option for systematic impregnation of slaves so maybe it doesn't have to do with automation. I'm actually so used to it being around that it seems like it was a vanilla feature, but I went back to check and its definitely not. I only really use >Paternalism means that they suddenly get the option to cover up and dress sensibly Yea, that is kinda weird. My only guess would be that it's supposed to be in contrast to degradationism, which focuses on degrading clothing andis often more revealing. So degredationist makes you stay naked, paternalist lets you dress normally if you want, but either way your body is owned by someone else and it's probably covered in drug laced cum slurry. >Just how deeply is the catness of the catgirls integrated? They'll kill rabbits and bring them to your desk as "presents", they find little corners to curl up in and nap instead of working, and they will crawl onto your lap so you can pet them, which is all I ever really wanted from a fet game, honestly. All the catgirls are created by your efforts, so I headcannon that the monopoly on catgirls is for my paternalist arcology only, where they'll be well treated. There's also some real heart in the events. Not gonna lie, I teared up a little at this one: `As you walk out from the office to your bedroom late in the evening, Kiki approaches you in the halls, holding something behind her back with both hands. Her tail swishes nervously from side to side behind her. The instant you open your mouth to ask what she's holding, the quivering catgirl thrusts out her arms in front of her to show youa heart cut out of red construction paper showing crude figures of you and a catgirl holding hands and smiling. Upon closer inspection, the crude cat figure is clearly intended to be Kiki, and the two of you are standing above big white text written in what looks like crayon reading "I LUV U MASTER". Kiki trembles a little as you look at the simple drawing. "I'm sorry Master..." Kiki meows weakly, still holding out her heart. "I w-wanted to make you something pretty like everybody else because I love you so m-much, but I can't draw good like them, Master... I h-hope you like it..." She holds her little paper heart out for you, staring at you with big wide green eyes as her ears flatten preemptively, apparently expecting you to hate the crude offering. You take Kiki by the hand, still holding her little present, and lead her over to your office. As she looks at you confused, you gingerly take the construction paper heart from her hands, open your display case with a twist of your private key, and place it inside. Kiki looks at you, looks at the display case, looks back at you, and then suddenly breaks into tears. "Master -- I l-love you so much --" She almost whimpers, before hugging herself around your waist so tight it feels like she's squeezing down your ribs. She simply sobs for a few moments, then hugs you with so much furry warmth that you swear you can feel her heart beating against yours. She's filled with the kind of love from the bottom of her heart that only comes from genuine adoration.' I personally imagine that I'm at the door watching all this and when she leaves the room to get back to work I walk with her and smooth her hair and say "he's an amazing man, isn't he?" and she says "yea... he really is. We're so lucky, aren't we?" and then I hug her and say "yes, we are." >I do! I would have liked to see fucktoys and the Concubine integrated into some other mechanical system to make them a little more actively involved. I'm totally on board for this and I'd love to see more. I can just see how they would get left by the wayside since they don't add to the economic engine, and it definitely seems like long term players are playing as a management game first and an h game second. Heck, I've read a post from an asexual person who plays the game. If I ever get into modding I'll look into how I can expand the role of at least the concubine, if not the master suite harem as a whole. In the concubine description it does say she has more impact than any other slave on your image, so some more events of her actually doing that would be warranted [Original posting time 02/01/2022 (Tue) 20:23:26 UTC.]
>>3279 >I also didn't really know I was into Cuckquean at the time Strange, isn't it, how you can go for so long expressing bits and pieces of that nameless urge through all these other, better-mapped fetishes, until one day you discover that cuckqueaning exists and - click! - it all becomes clear. >catgirl details Aww, and also ew, but mainly awwww. I love it. >I headcannon that the monopoly on catgirls is for my paternalist arcology only, where they'll be well treated. Whenever I think about catgirl-inclusive settings, this is usually what I end up with. Catgirls are only for the worthy. One day I'll be able to write the story of what that might look like and mean. One day... >Kiki and her present That's heart-meltingly cute, even with its sprinkle of pathos. >I personally imagine that I'm at the door watching all this and when she leaves the room to get back to work I walk with her and smooth her hair and say "he's an amazing man, isn't he?" and she says "yea... he really is. We're so lucky, aren't we?" and then I hug her and say "yes, we are." Ah, there they are, those feelings, wrapping me like a blanket. >If I ever get into modding I'll look into how I can expand the role of at least the concubine, if not the master suite harem as a whole. In the concubine description it does say she has more impact than any other slave on your image, so some more events of her actually doing that would be warranted I would certainly be interested to see what you come up with Anon, but of course no pressure. The big thing with any of these other volunteer projects is to pull your own weight without interrupting the overall flow of progress at that moment, which would mean not getting in the way of the PC overhaul at all. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 02/08/2022 (Tue) 10:46:32 UTC.]
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If you want to focus on feels, not management you can set the cashX value arbitrarily high in the \src\init\storyInit.js file before running the compile.bat so you can set up a harem at game start and not worry about money. There is (as far as I know) a complete lack of harem management games from the head wife's perspective, so this is one of the best in terms of perspectives. I love the dairy, a bunch of big tit cows he can fuck and provide milk for the rest of the harem. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 02/08/2022 (Tue) 18:09:53 UTC.]
>>3281 I guess I could do that, but I enjoy management games. I could just fantasise if I wanted to focus on pure feels over actually playing a game. Thank you for the hint all the same, Anon! [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 02/09/2022 (Wed) 09:25:49 UTC.]
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>>3280 >until one day you discover that cuckqueaning exists and - click! - it all becomes clear. This is pretty much exactly what happened for me. I had only ever heard of cuckoldry and that never appealed to me, then I found out cuckquean existed and everything just fell into place and I realized most of my fet interests were orbiting cuckquean without even knowing what it was. I do wish it was more popular if only so it would be easier for me to find stuff that appeals to me, since most erotica isn't labeled as cuckquean/reverse NTR even if it has those themes. >pull your own weight without interrupting the overall flow of progress at that moment The thing that's nice about this game is its moddable entirely alone, I used to edit the html file on my local machine in minor ways to remove stuff I didn't like or add extra descriptive text to things. That means I can make edits without getting in anyone else's way, and even if I submit them for merge and they get rejected I can keep using them myself. The main thing holding me back is I have no JS experience, so I have to learn all that, and I haven't had much creative drive lately. But its a good point of entry if I ever do want to mod it, since it's way easier to add some events than make a whole new future society or something. >>3281 This is good advice for someone who struggles with the gameplay, or who might be interested in checking it out without having to worry too much about losing the game. If editing files is too scary, choosing an idle wealth or venture capitalism as a background, along with the "throw money around" method of acquiring your arcology will start you with some extra cash and the means to make more cash, and you can also turn the economic difficulty down to low. [Moderator Note: Split-reposted from >>3143 in Cuckquean Stories thread at >>110 - original posting time 02/16/2022 (Wed) 12:06:55 UTC.]
Edited last time by cuckqueanadmin on 03/26/2022 (Sat) 08:57:10.
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Ok, after quite some time I finally tried [The Last Sovereign]. I was a little worried I wouldn't enjoy the gameplay as much without random encounters and grinding (I love grindy games, if someone could make a lewd version of Etrian Oddesey I would be so happy) but turns out the writing is so good that I don't care! As other anons mentioned the intro is funny, the character writing is good, and the art is certainly acceptable. I am a little disappointed that the game is still in dev two years after OP and only incremented up to .60 in that timeframe, but what I've played is definitely good. Thanks for the recommendation! [Moderator Note: Copy-reposted >>3223 from The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/22/2022 (Tue) 20:34:30 UTC.]
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>>3284 >if someone could make a lewd version of Etrian Oddesey I would be so happy Now you've got my noggin joggin', Anon(nin). How would one go about making a cute+lewd dungeon crawling grindfest that actually integrated said lewdness well? There are many possible ways, but only some of them would be good and only some of them would be sexy. Your bf's the paladin, then FOE! Sexy monstergirl is FOE! Oh no, she saw us, FOE! We're all out of anti-charm, FOE! You're watching from the back line: FOE! Your man's balls-deep in the FOE! [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/23/2022 (Wed) 07:44:28 UTC.]
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>>3285 >But: At least it's still being developed at all instead of abandoned, right? After seeing so many games get stuck in development purgatory where they don't really go anywhere, I'm not so sure anymore. But it seems like the slowdown may have been related to the addition of more art, and I understand sourcing art can be very time consuming so I'm at least sympathetic. There are also so many choices to be made that need to have an impact on the story. Taking the time to write it out and make those choices meaningful would be nice so we can hopefully get real, nuanced endings and not red/blue/green ending. It's a good game so far, I love the CQ vibes, and I hope to see more from the dev. >>3233 >How would one go about making a cute+lewd dungeon crawling grindfest that actually integrated said lewdness well? This is the struggle. I'm unsure how sex can be tied to the core game mechanics in a fun way. There's the obvious option of having sexy monster design and harem action going on behind the scenes, similar to Kamidori. But I think for H games to reach their full potential, the sexybits should be incorporated in the mechanics themselves. This is complicated by the fact that Etrian is a mechanics heavy game, where a lot of the fun is derived from the doing of the thing and the story is more like set dressing. I actually forgot why I was in the labyrinth halfway through EO2 until the game reminded me I have more motivation than murder and mapping. That means it could possibly benefit from a stronger sexy narrative and you can leave the core gameplay mostly alone? If you wanted sex combat I'm unsure if full on sex combat would be the right move since you murder so many things in Etrian that I think you'd get desensitized to that sexyness over time. Some sexy moves/sex magic might work? If sex powers magic, then you could restore your mp by doing sexual actions, but there would need to be a trade off in order to keep resources a thing. Maybe a libido mechanic so you cant just fuck nonstop? You could have sexual support classes with higher libido that are less good in combat and that could open up interesting gameplay decisions. You could also have sexual support skills for each class where you'd just be paying opportunity cost by taking those instead of direct damage skills. Also unsure if sexual magic means tp would need to be separated from mp, or if we're just saying sex is restorative in this labyrinth? There's also the possibility of making sex part of the loot in some way. If you capture the monster girls in the dungeon instead of killing them, then that could be part of the loot. Maybe you can make choices about what to do with them once captured, like keep them, sell them, give them to one of the shops to unlock more stuff, maybe all your recruits need to be captured instead? It feels like a deviation from the core formula but it could work, though maybe I'm bringing my love of management games into a game that doesn't need more mechanics. >There are many possible ways Sounds like you might have some ideas already anon, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts since I didn't think anyone else had even heard of EO, let alone someone on a quiet cuckquean fetish board. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/23/2022 (Wed) 08:07:18 UTC.]
>>3286 >murder and mapping Rejected Etrian Odyssey title, right here. >Sounds like you might have some ideas already anon I kiiiiiind of do, but at the moment they're fuzzy and mostly of the "other games have tried this and this but I didn't really like that, and doing this might work but it would turn it into a different kind of game, and then I thought of this and ended up seized by a fantasy where I'm a former heroine plugged into a crystal throne that gives me full awareness of everything my newly-adopted forest can see including my husband fulfilling his orders by enthusiastically reinforcing (sexually) my monstergirl lieutenants one of whom is a yandere we successfully tamed together in an earlier chapter wait no hold on stop the ride I need my brain for other things right now" sort. >There's the obvious option of having sexy monster design and harem action going on behind the scenes, similar to Kamidori. The obvious solution, and one that keeps things easy to balance since you don't have the gooeyness and emotion of sex getting into the mechanics, so to, uh, speak. But, as you say, also too straightforward to be useful as a design exercise. >If you wanted sex combat I'm unsure if full on sex combat would be the right move since you murder so many things in Etrian that I think you'd get desensitized to that sexyness over time. I personally dislike sex combat because I've not seen it done well even once. It's such an obvious approach and many dirty games do attempt it, but putting those two exciting things together tends to make for boring combat, boring sex, or both. And, as you say, the moment you plug it into a number-driven JRPG-style loop it tends to quickly lose any allure by simple fact of its repetition. And, not to put too fine a point on it, it often just ends up being crass and uninteresting. There's almost never any imagination to how sex is layered in, nothing to get the sex-autism juices flowing. >Some sexy moves/sex magic might work? If sex powers magic, then you could restore your mp by doing sexual actions I see, vaguely, the outline of an asymmetric system where sex and combat form two possible paths to victory, and where a player has to balance commitment to both, but where they're mutually exclusive somehow. I don't know what it looks like, though... >You could have sexual support classes with higher libido that are less good in combat and that could open up interesting gameplay decisions. What if the gameplay somehow treated time spent recovering from combat as feeding directly into the combat itself, and the consequences of combat as feeding directly into recovery? In this way, a "sexual support class" might be less useful in combat but absolutely critical outside it. Such classes would belong in the rear of an Etrian-style back line mechanic. Imagine as one example that a hypothetical labyrinth—we'll label it the "aphrodisiac labyrinth" perhaps—somehow wears down the fortitude of the party or inflicts certain persistent status effects. If ordinary humans/adventurers/whatever spend too long there (the effect gets stronger the deeper into the labyrinth one goes) then they lose themselves, wander away, develop strange monster-friendly mental quirks, become corrupted somehow, lose the ability to do certain things, etc. As such, parties can't dive very far unless they are accompanied by those who know how to delay, cure, counter, and redirect the labyrinth's effects—and, you guessed it, such specialists make use of sex to do so, indirectly and directly. Treat this concept seriously and suddenly all kinds of interesting second-order effects tumble out. So now we have a framework where adventurers (including the "support specialists") are being "crippled" in interesting, progressively-accumulated ways, and where a party's ability to deal with that determines how deep they can go (hurr). Sexy things can still happen in combat, but because it's still actual combat we can't fall back on the lazy "it's like any other RPG combat but the basic Attack option has been replaced with dick and whoever cums first loses" and have to limit ourselves to seduction moves, pheromones, quick contact, and so on. Outside combat, the party's ability to make itself safe enough to enjoy bursts of sexy downtime becomes not mere window-dressing but instead a survival imperative, and protecting your downtime-focused party members in combat is even more important because if they're too crippled then they can't provide the all-important recovery. One limiting factor of sex-combat games is that all opposition has to be presented sexy near-humanoids. I'm not against that, but it is a very limiting factor. However, in this sort of labyrinth we need not make (all of) the opposition sexually desirable, which gives us a lot more freedom to make a satisfying game. A plant that releases spores or a venomous insect can tie into the sexual mechanics without themselves being sexually involved, see? [Original posting time 03/23/2022 (Wed) 09:41:49 UTC.]
>>3287 This hypothetical model feels right to me for a few reasons. First, it turns sex into a matter of expertise and abstracts its concept just enough that interesting spins on its use are possible. Second, it provides enough wriggle room that we can mix and match all sorts of different classes that mix different roles in the combat/recovery loop. Third, it sets things up for all kinds of emergent narratives around the sex that players end up perceiving as gameplay unfolds. Fourth, it provides some basic intrigue for those who care about such things—why is the labyrinth like this?—without forcing itself on those who don't care. Finally, it provides plenty of room to bake in things I like and insulate against things I personally wouldn't like to see. For example, we might say that the party can only have one man (an "anchor"?) because the labyrinth's effects cause men in the same party to instantly and viciously fight each other to the death in a way that nobody has managed to cure or moderate in the slightest. Add specific, limited countermeasures to allow limited contact between parties, rescues, and so on. Bolting on other setting-level limitations like this are left as an exercise to the reader. Anyway, that's a slapdash in-the-moment example of one possible hypothetical tweak that causes all kinds of other things to appear in the design. Other baseline tweaks are possible. >There's also the possibility of making sex part of the loot in some way. If you capture the monster girls in the dungeon instead of killing them, then that could be part of the loot. Maybe you can make choices about what to do with them once captured, like keep them, sell them, give them to one of the shops to unlock more stuff, maybe all your recruits need to be captured instead? This is another possibility, though care has to be taken to avoid having the mechanics turn things into a soul-less monstergirl collectathon. (Yes, there is such a thing as too many sexy monstergirls, especially if their sheer number causes them to become something boring that you pull out of the dungeon by the sackful so you can stick 'em in the semen mines or whatever. I hope never to type the phrase "semen mines" again.) Fortunately, with tweaks like the one outlined above, actual monstergirls can be made rare and precious encounters whose defeat/capture/escape can support major gameplay, setting, and story turns. >maybe I'm bringing my love of management games into a game that doesn't need more mechanics. Imagine, if you will, that after breaching a particular layer of the dungeon the party encounters a monstergirl whose defeat, capture, and "turning" unlocks a small in-dungeon encampment. Now the party has a kind of limited town-like area (though they still need to return all the way to town for certain things) that also provides new things the town can't provide, and which can be expanded and reinforced by progressing whatever quest/story/character/management ratchets are baked in. Breach a new layer? Well, of course the encampment can build a secure shortcut to and from a special point on that layer, if only certain development, resource, and character conditions are met! Fuck, I didn't mean to expand that much. I hope that gives you a somewhat fuzzy idea of the sorts of things I glimpsed in the conceptual fog, Anon. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/23/2022 (Wed) 09:44:03 UTC.]
>>3285 Cute parody, anon. I laff. >>3287 >>3288 >other games have tried this and this but I didn't really like that, and doing this might work but it would turn it into a different kind of game, and then I thought of this and ended up seized by a fantasy I feel like this is how the good devs get started, and I'm pretty sure it's how The Last Sovereign got started. Your ideas sound very interesting! I would certainly try your game if you got started and made a thread here. It doesn't seem like a great fit for RPG Maker, though; you might need to actually program in something more "real" like Unity or Godot. [Moderator Note: Split-reposted from >>3240 in The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/24/2022 (Thu) 09:14:27 UTC.]
>>3289 >I feel like this is how the good devs get started, and I'm pretty sure it's how The Last Sovereign got started. Your ideas sound very interesting! I would certainly try your game if you got started and made a thread here. That's very kind of you to say, thank you. My ideas above are really nothing more than groping in the fog, and I would note that games are not made of ideas but of assets and code. I have an idea capture file longer than all my limbs set end to end full of the sort of thing you see above, but who knows? Maybe this'll be the one. >It doesn't seem like a great fit for RPG Maker, though; you might need to actually program in something more "real" like Unity or Godot. Yes, certainly something a little more open-ended would be the way. Seeking a good balance between constraint and freedom that a given engine provides is, I imagine, something that one needs to pay attention to but which can't be seen through to. [Moderator Note: Split-reposted from >>3250 in The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/24/2022 (Thu) 17:33:18 UTC.]
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>>3287 >a former heroine plugged into a crystal throne that gives me full awareness of everything my newly-adopted forest Honestly this sounds like a great writing prompt, even if it never develops into a game idea. If you decide to write it drop a line over at the stories thread, we always need more cuckquean literotica in the world. >Imagine as one example that a hypothetical labyrinth—we'll label it the "aphrodisiac labyrinth" perhaps—somehow wears down the fortitude of the party or inflicts certain persistent status effects. This is a really great way to tie sex to the mechanics of the game, and I love mind control themes so a corrupting sexy dungeon sounds like a good stage on which to play EO. I don't know if I'd want to force others into a CQ direction, but if developing for me I think a one man limitation is great. You can have the MC for self insert purposes be in a relationship with them at the start and you're on a murderhobo adventure together when you stumble across the labyrinth. Through the story tutorial you are introduced to one of the sex support class characters, who you need to include in the party, and construct a little harem for your man since there's no way you can overcome it with a party smaller than five. While you grudgingly accept the necessity of this at the start, after spending time in the dungeon you start to associate the aphrodisiac induced arousal with your man dicking down the other harem members and you struggle to come to terms with your new fetish until you embrace and revel in it. It also leads to the perhaps cliche but still fun option of a story diversion where you can decide if you want to defeat the BBEG at the bottom of the dungeon, or overthrow them and take over. Use the dungeon to collect new girls for your BFs harem! It's like automated vixen delivery! All your ideas on this are pretty good really, you're pretty good at this anon. [Moderator Note: Split-reposted from >>3251 in The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/24/2022 (Thu) 21:33:27 UTC.]
>>3291 >If you decide to write it drop a line over at the stories thread, we always need more cuckquean literotica in the world. It does sound fun to write, but I've already quietly decided that I have to go back to an abandoned fiction project first before I unleash any energy on a new one. One of the big rules of writing is to finish what you start, but I made the mistake of giving in to fear and walking away from said project some time ago. I'll put the crystal throne idea into the general ferment. Ideas are wonderful things to have and they can feel so good to explore, but when they go feral and become a swarm screaming to be born then they can be terribly dangerous. Alright, now that I've hit the Return key twice it's time to trample all over what I just said and play chasies with the new and shiny idea! >I love mind control themes so a corrupting sexy dungeon sounds like a good stage on which to play EO. Me too, but I mulled this over some more and thought about whether one might make this type of labyrinth an ultimately mind-control-flavoured thing, a sexy dungeon filled with sex gas and sex monsters and sex adventurers! It's a sexy dungeon, yes, but one of the things I liked most about the framework above is that it doesn't have to be, at least not all the time. Just because sex is the cure doesn't mean that it has to be the cause as well. What if sex is somehow purifying, anchoring (there's that word again), something that keeps that delicate circle of firelight pushing back the things that lurk outside? Now sex is still marbled through the setting in a (presumably) interesting, but it's not 100% sex all the time. But on the other hand, one would still have to make it make sense that sex is so strongly applicable to the labyrinth's effects, and that means there has to be something to it that interacts satisfyingly with the sexual angle, otherwise we've fallen into the substitution trap where we replace cure potions with blowjobs and think we're very clever. The way that The Last Sovereign treated sexual magic was an example of recognizing and dodging this trap, but TLS's solution wouldn't quite apply here—it needs something else, although I can't yet concretely see what that would be. >I don't know if I'd want to force others into a CQ direction, but if developing for me I think a one man limitation is great. I think the way to do CQ themes in such a setting is to set up the way that the world works such that the CQ-inclined player can go wild, but also allows those who aren't so inclined to still enjoy it. To me, this means making the world's rules prevent those things that might contradict or otherwise interfere with what I would like without going all the way and enforcing that they must happen. For example, if we wanted to not only allow but enforce cuckqueaning, we might somehow contrive a circumstance whereby the core of a party has to be a couple and the rest of the party must be women who must have sex with the man. But that approach feels heavy-handed, brittle, and unsatisfying to me—not to mention I can't think of a good way to contrive how the world would do it—and would instantly alienate any player who isn't in it for that. Instead, writing the sexual-support angle and the one-man angle into the world gives us just enough uncertainty that it supports harem-enjoyers, general sex-enjoyers, and cuckqueaning-enjoyers without being so specific that it's hard to make work. It definitely does shut out others like, say, those who're into guy-on-guy or MMMM(etc)F gangbanging or cuckolding etc... but I don't care about them, they can go make their own game somewhere else. All that said, I still think having a layer of the labyrinth with a slightly stronger flavour of mind control would be fun. Those who know would be able to taste and enjoy it, while those who don't wouldn't feel squicked. I glimpse its outline so I know it's possible, but the details don't yet present themselves. [Moderator Note: Split-reposted from >>3253 in The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/25/2022 (Fri) 06:08:40 UTC.]
>>3292 >You can have the MC for self insert purposes be in a relationship with them at the start and you're on a murderhobo adventure together when you stumble across the labyrinth. Through the story tutorial you are introduced to one of the sex support class characters, who you need to include in the party, and construct a little harem for your man since there's no way you can overcome it with a party smaller than five. While you grudgingly accept the necessity of this at the start, after spending time in the dungeon you start to associate the aphrodisiac induced arousal with your man dicking down the other harem members and you struggle to come to terms with your new fetish until you embrace and revel in it. I love it. Doing things in this more definite character-driven way is off-formula for an EO-like (I think? I only played a little past the first forest layer of the first game, so please correct me if I'm off here) but there's nothing to stop it working well. It does, however, prevent the game from providing the party-building angle that EO was known for, since the structure strongly suggests that each member of the harem becomes a party fixture in story/emotional terms. Maybe introducing a flexible re-classing system whereby a given party member can have different, swappable, separately-leveled jobs might help reunite the two styles? I thi—oh no, oh no, the different jobs have outfits, they have outfits, I'm getting excited, help! But this does throw into relief a choice that fundamentally affects the thematic potential of the game, which is party composition. Let's imagine we: >go full EO and allow the whole party to be hired and swapped out at will as long as it fulfills the one-man rule? Very classic on the surface, but feels muddy to me, honestly, and it doesn't give me any kind of kick—going this path would mean it's better to just slash away a lot of the setting restrictions and make a simpler sexy EO-style crawler where everyone's fucking everyone else. >fix the man as "anchor" and allow only the female members to be hired and swapped out at will? Still quite mechanically classic. More harem, but the female members are now just portraits whom we can't build any emotional scaffolding around. Imaginative players can still work with it, though—a CQ-inclined player might even be able to self-insert even when "she" leaves herself behind in town. >fix the man as "anchor" along with one female member, allow all others to be hired and swapped out at will? This is ends up a diet version of the enforced-cuckqueaning setup I outlined above. It feels pretty arbitrary, and something in me feels it would be unsatisfying on a gameplay level. Maybe I'm wrong, but for some reason I have difficulty reasoning through this configuration. >fix the man as "anchor", fix all female members as their own written characters? Restrictive in gameplay terms (less so with a swappable-job system) but gives the writer the most control over how things unfold. This control is also a disadvantage, because the responsibility the writer wields reduces the degree of flexible appeal to different player groups that I outlined above. The player's not telling themselves their own story anymore, see? You can also refrain from writing the party very far in the hopes that the player's own narrative will take over, but I don't think that'd work—when you give a player definite people with definite names and then tell them nothing more it comes off as shallow writing rather than a deliberate decision. Also, including a set of suitable hosts for the CQ-inclined player to insert into would be a delicate balancing act. You could solve this by making every girl a possible self-insert host somehow, which would require bestowing each girl with characteristics that work in both quean and vixen and coequal harem portrayals, and who still work regardless of whether a player is self-inserting into them or not. >fix the man as "anchor", provide a pool of female members who are their own written characters, but who can be swapped out Requires more work from the game developer and writer, but allows decent flexibility in gameplay terms. If the girls and guy are drawn in broad strokes then there's the possibility that the emergent-narrative magic can still happen, but I feel like it would be easy to overstep here. You'd pretty much be restricted to designing in general "personalities" and nothing more. Same as above, you'd also have to accommodate the self-insert host problem. If the girls and guy are written more specifically under this configuration, you end up with the Octopath Problem, where you have a bunch of people with their own storylines whom you end up pursuing one by one because you can never tell who'll be present at any given time, so the group identity never coalesces. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/25/2022 (Fri) 06:09:26 UTC.]
>>3293 >fix all slots in the party but allow the player to generate and customize each one as they please at the start of the game This solves the group-identity problem and mostly ousts the writer from the party so player-narrative can take over (especially harem and CQ narratives), but might quickly allow the player to become terribly frustrated if they've put a lot of time into a party that they built badly in ways they couldn't possibly have anticipated at the time. That's a big mechanical risk and would force certain design decisions that might reduce the game's appeal among those who appreciate a bit more crunch. It feels like it would be so easy to create a muddy, weak system under such a constraint; something that did work would have to be elegant and light, which is harder than it looks to create. It's something to mull, certainly. >It also leads to the perhaps cliche but still fun option of a story diversion where you can decide if you want to defeat the BBEG at the bottom of the dungeon, or overthrow them and take over. Use the dungeon to collect new girls for your BFs harem! It's like automated vixen delivery! That sounds fun! In order for that choice to have weight one would need to figure out what significance the labyrinth has for the world, characters, or something else. I think in EO the labyrinth was presented as more or less a valuable, mysterious frontier where adventurers dived for their own reasons, but if you're going to take it over from some controlling entity or system then that won't really fly. Actually, your idea made that little throwaway detail of the in-dungeon encampment I mentioned in >>3237 thrust itself forward in my mind and became something a little more ambitious. I'd initially thought of it as existing within a kind of hub area wherein you spread out into differently-themed spokes of the labyrinth which, if you'll excuse a little use of aestehtic text has this sort of concept:           (town)             |             |          (first           layer)----(layer)             |             |             -                (layer)      (optional extra          /         layers here)         /             -         (layer)--(layer)             |       /              |      /        (layer with       /   fort)        /      |  (layer     |          (layer)             |             |          (layer) It's simple and cut off, but you see the idea. The player's initial dive is straight down, like EO. But when they eventually take control of the fort/encampment, their traversal choices open up a lot more and it becomes more about exploring the labyrinth, trying to find things that build towards larger goals (partially presented to the player and kept moving by the fort's management component). However, what if, upon taking control of the fort, the player had the option to instead treat it as their town and begin working against the surface? Perhaps the BBEG (self-proclaimed) who was occupying the fort was just some jumped-up clown and the labyrinth's true nature isn't yet revealed nor its basic threats/problems/whatever resolved? If the player chooses to keep going along the surface-friendly route, then they treat the fort as I outlined in my previous post, and continue exploring the labyrinth in accordance with surface-friendly goals, perhaps neutralising it. But if they choose to step over the BBEG's body (something must be baked in that makes this a believable choice) and follow a more competent version of his goals, they instead explore the labyrinth with its control and use in mind. This sounds like a great idea, but it could very easily swell things such that one's making 1.8x or 3x of the game instead of 1x of the game. …I think I’d better stop for now. [Moderator Note: Move-reposted from The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/25/2022 (Fri) 06:11:14 UTC.]
>>3292 >Me too, but I mulled this over some more and thought about whether one might make this type of labyrinth an ultimately mind-control-flavoured thing, a sexy dungeon filled with sex gas and sex monsters and sex adventurers! It's a sexy dungeon, yes, but one of the things I liked most about the framework above is that it doesn't have to be, at least not all the time. Just because sex is the cure doesn't mean that it has to be the cause as well. What if sex is somehow purifying, anchoring (there's that word again), something that keeps that delicate circle of firelight pushing back the things that lurk outside? Sex, the bulwark against creeping chaos! Sex, the wall against the outside hordes! Seriously though, this seems like a good take to me. >I think the way to do CQ themes in such a setting is to set up the way that the world works such that the CQ-inclined player can go wild, but also allows those who aren't so inclined to still enjoy it. To me, this means making the world's rules prevent those things that might contradict or otherwise interfere with what I would like without going all the way and enforcing that they must happen. This seems like a good general approach that would work for a lot of themes, CQ included. >>3293 >>fix the man as "anchor" along with one female member, allow all others to be hired and swapped out at will? >This is ends up a diet version of the enforced-cuckqueaning setup I outlined above. It feels pretty arbitrary, and something in me feels it would be unsatisfying on a gameplay level. Maybe I'm wrong, but for some reason I have difficulty reasoning through this configuration. And so, related to previous paragraph, maybe the game could mechanically encourage setting one girl up as the cuckquean without requiring it be a particular girl? This would require a little flexibility or branching when writing narrative around whoever the cuckquean is. This is just one way it could work, of course. [Moderator Note: Split-reposted from >>3257 in The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/25/2022 (Fri) 06:41:53 UTC.]
>>3292 >Alright, now that I've hit the Return key twice it's time to trample all over what I just said and play chasies with the new and shiny idea! I have many thought about all of this, but am wondering if this is the right place to discuss them? After nearly taking over the stories thread with Free Cities talk I'd hate to do that here. Would it make sense to move to another thread like worldbuilding/fantasy or QTDDTOT? IDK if I have enough to say to warrant a "Cuckquean Game Ideas" thread. [Moderator Note: This is the post that suggested the creation of this Cuckquean Games thread. Copy-reposted >>3259 from The Last Sovereign thread at >>905 - original posting time 03/25/2022 (Fri) 18:00:1 UTC.] [Moderator Note: This is the last post of the initially imported posts for the thread. You may now post in this thread for real. Enjoy!]
Edited last time by cuckqueanadmin on 03/26/2022 (Sat) 09:18:20.
Thanks for your work, cuckqueanadmin~ >>3287 >One limiting factor of sex-combat games is that all opposition has to be presented sexy near-humanoids. I'm not against that, but it is a very limiting factor. Well, it doesn't *have* to be like that, but including too much non-humanoids cuts your audience, and I don't know how many people want to see a humanoid male with a non-humanoid female. Nonzero people, certainly, and I admit to enjoying a few male-on-nominally-female-tentacle scenes in my time, but I suspect it's even less popular than the gender-inverse of that situation. Most people probably want a humanoid face or body, if not both. There was that one scene early in The Last Sovereign but that was played for comedy. >>3288 >we might say that the party can only have one man (an "anchor"?) because the labyrinth's effects cause men in the same party to instantly and viciously fight each other to the death in a way that nobody has managed to cure or moderate in the slightest. Add specific, limited countermeasures to allow limited contact between parties, rescues, and so on. I love this. Largely because my mental image of the most basic 'countermeasure' is our vigilant cuckquean-commander yelling "Fuck, it's another party! Pin your men, girls!" and instant vixen piles ensue on both sides before the men can lock eyes like Pokemon trainers.
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Ok, now that I’ve inadvertently made the board owner do all that work (thank you so much <3), on to cuckquean Etrian! >>3292 >What if sex is somehow purifying, anchoring (there's that word again), something that keeps that delicate circle of firelight pushing back the things that lurk outside? In a world where sex and sexuality is often characterized as dirty, the purifying power of sex could be very interesting to explore. Sure we have the idea of love and how it is redeeming and yea, some of that is a thin veil for sex but it’s rarely spotlighted. The only thing I would say we have to keep in mind is that the behavior of adventurers still has to be natural, someone had to figure out that sex protects you in this dungeon after all. Unless there was a plaque on the entrance place by the maker that says “Ayo if things get too weird make sure to suck your man’s dick that’ll fix everything lmao” the logical jump from problem presented to sex as a solution should be relatively obvious, or at least not too obtuse. >It definitely does shut out others like, say, those who're into guy-on-guy or MMMM(etc)F gangbanging or cuckolding etc... but I don't care about them I wholeheartedly agree, and I think most people playing the game wouldn’t really want multiple dudes in the party anyway both to avoid the potential of gay sex between men as well as NTR. But maybe I’m being colored by my experiences on other boards, where players mostly seem to want to build a harem that belongs to them rather than being a shared orgy sitch. With my biases stated, I do really like the thematic potential of idea that the dungeon conditions force a one man per party rule. It feels like an interesting story point, and even if it’s being somewhat arbitrary so we can make it CQ friendly I don’t think that detracts from the storytelling/worldbuilding potential. >All that said, I still think having a layer of the labyrinth with a slightly stronger flavour of mind control would be fun. Those who know would be able to taste and enjoy it, while those who don't wouldn't feel squicked. Maybe something like the purity/corruption mechanic from Corruption of Champions could work? In that game, the world is corrupted and it tries to corrupt you too, turning you into a sex addled succubus. You gain corruption from lots of things, not just choosing to sex down enemies but also from eating or being in certain places, so corruption is hard to avoid. However, even if corruption can’t be avoided it can be mitigated. You can meditate, you can eat purifying food, you can avoid taking corrupting actions, you can actively destroy corrupted sections of the forest, etc. A similar system could make the dungeon corrupt you, and you can spend time/resources to fight it, bring warding charms to slow it down, or potions of purity to clear your mind, but that time could be better spent on other actions, your money better spent on combat gear, wards or potions could take inventory slots that could be used for other useful items. Maybe with more corruption you unlock a different class from a pure playthrough, and this could also drive an ultimate decision to side with the town or not. Alternately a pure/corrupt option could interact where corrupt characters can side with the town for different reasons than pure characters.
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>>3293 >>3307 >Doing things in this more definite character-driven way is off-formula for an EO-like Remakes of 1 and 2 were made with a story mode that had named characters with fixed classes and everything, while also retaining a "classic mode" which was essentially the same as the originals just with some extra content and touched up visuals/mechanics. I haven't played those ones since I don't need story in my EO games, I'm in it for the dungeon crawl, but there is at least president. >Maybe introducing a flexible re-classing system whereby a given party member can have different, swappable, separately-leveled jobs might help reunite the two styles? This was exactly what I had in mind. Etrian has a retiring mechanic where once a character reaches a certain level (like 20 or 30, so around early midgame) you can retire that character and get an enhanced recruit who starts at half the retired characters level, but with bonus stat and skill points. I always made those recruits have the same name and portrait, so it was a potential time to respec. The later games have an alter class function that halves your level to just change class too. I think this is because the game wants you to recruit at least 1 of each class and then swap them out if you need to, rather than respec your main party freely. If we're going for entirely/mostly fixed party characters, a more forgiving respec system would work better since we changed the core design. They also had a respec system where you lose 2 levels to get your skill points back so you can reallocate them, and I think a 2 level penalty to change classes is something that feels better if using fixed party members. Starting in 3 the game let you subclass, where you could pick a second class for a character to get their active skills, though not their passive ones or stat growth. Between a subclass system and a more forgiving re-class system you could definitely make a fixed party work here. >I thi—oh no, oh no, the different jobs have outfits, they have outfits, I'm getting excited, help! So this whole thought process has been fun but this is the part where I’ve gotten the most enthusiastic about it. Your excitement is quite infectious anon. >fix the man as "anchor" along with one female member, allow all others to be hired and swapped out at will? Of the options you proposed, this is closest to what I had in mind. My idea was you have the anchor and self insert fem character the as core at the very start, but everyone else is a sword for hire looking to sign up with your little adventuring party. I don’t think I’d make the one female MC need to be in the party at all times, but they wouldn’t be able to be dismissed from the guild or anything like that. However, I think there would likely be more widespread appeal if there was just the one man and all the other gals are random since that simplifies things while still allowing for CQ headcannon. If someone isn’t into QC, what do they get from having a GF in the party already? You could write the main dude character as conflicted about sexing up the other party members and give the player the choice to dick down the other gals or not. That could potentially also lead into a self-imposed “hard mode” where you try to do the game with just the two MCs, but all that feels like it might be more trouble than it’s worth for a game that one wants to appeal to a general audience. We can have a flexible harem and write QC harem scenes like in Last Sovereign and appeal to more players.
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>>3293 >>3307 >>3309 >fix the man as "anchor", fix all female members as their own written characters? >Restrictive in gameplay terms (less so with a swappable-job system) but gives the writer the most control over how things unfold. This control is also a disadvantage. The player's not telling themselves their own story anymore, see? I feel similarly to you about this, in that if written well it could make for a great story, but then it would be a more traditional RPG and less of the open dungeon crawl the Etrian is. The story in Etrian is usually more man vs nature, with many of the beats being worldbuilding about the environment you’re in. Where did the labyrinth come from, how do the people in the town relate to it, how does it change (or not change) the lives of those who come to delve the depths? Is it a source of wealth being directly mined by them or did the town arise to cater to adventurers and those adventurers are the real engine of the economy? Is it a threat they live in fear of, or do the monsters never wander out of the labyrinth for some reason? Are adventurers who come changed in some way, becoming stronger or more charismatic or more beautiful over time, or will they not age while within and thus seek to extend their lives? Or is it rumored to contain the fountain of youth, a magical healing herb, the holy grail, and thus people delve in search of the mythical treasure lying at the bottom? Or maybe they just come for generic treasure, both guarded by the monsters and left behind by those who fall to the labyrinth’s defenses. These are all things that can be interesting to the player, provide secondary motivation other than pure exploration/seeing numbers go up, and remain unobtrusive enough that they don’t interrupt the gameplay too much. These kinds of stories also don’t need named party characters with extensive writing to make them work. Etrian 2 has no written dialog for any of your guildmates (I think, maybe I missed a line or two), but it still tells a compelling story of friendship, sacrifice, and loss through the portrayal of the townsfolk and other adventuring guilds, and it also shows how we are nurtured by the sacrifices of those who came before us, like young saplings growing to fill the void left by their fallen progenitors. Or at least that’s why I got out of it; maybe I’m manufacturing meaning where there isn’t any. >>3294 >But when they eventually take control of the fort/encampment, their traversal choices open up a lot more and it becomes more about exploring the labyrinth, trying to find things that build towards larger goals (partially presented to the player and kept moving by the fort's management component). There’s a mechanic that was introduced in 3 where they had an alternate dungeon. In 3 the town was on the coast, so the subdungeon was sailing around the sea and trying to open up trade routes with other nearby towns. It was a neat little distraction, and something like the fort management you describe could make for an interesting subdungeon mechanic. >However, what if, upon taking control of the fort, the player had the option to instead treat it as their town and begin working against the surface? I like the idea of having what seems to be the end boss actually be a midboss, and afterwards the dungeon opens up more and the story branches out. As I mentioned above, the decision to take over from the Big Bad could be driven by corruption, but it could also be through revelations about the dungeon and the town. Maybe there’s some ancient weapon or hell portal at the real bottom, and the Big Bad wanted to protect the world from that ancient evil or corrupting force and wound up getting corrupted in the process. You, being better through the power of cucking, can take up the torch and destroy the evil thing once and for all. Maybe upon finding out about the power, the town leadership might want to tap into it, to use an army of demons or a mind control device or whatever treasure is down there to spread their influence and rebuild an ancient, now collapsed empire. Or maybe they just want to maintain the status quo, and ask you to seal the lower level instead of destroying the evil since destroying the evil will destroy the livelihood of the entire town. Maybe the dungeon makes the land surrounding it unusually fertile and sealing the evil will hold it back while keeping the crops from withering and causing a famine. There are greater good arguments on both sides, and the decisions can be made more morally complex than I laid them out as but that’s just the first thing that came to mind.
Thank you, cuckqueanadmin-sama! We deeply appreciate all you do for us. >>3300 >my mental image of the most basic 'countermeasure' is our vigilant cuckquean-commander yelling "Fuck, it's another party! Pin your men, girls!" and instant vixen piles ensue on both sides before the men can lock eyes like Pokemon trainers. >like Pokemon trainers. Oh my goodness Anon, my sides have been encircled and destroyed. But what you said here (the first part, not the Pokemon trainer part) caused several things to surface in my mind, and now I have actually lost sleep because I couldn't stop thinking about them. Hopefully I can properly explain them when I'm able to post more thoroughly.
>>3307 There is a cuckquean Etrian? is this real? a mod? or what?
>>3314 at the moment, not real, just ideas. I mentioned in >>3284 that I'd love a lewd Etrian game, and the anon from >>3285 asked me how that would work and now here we are. I still can't believe there are multiple people on this board that are aware of EO. How autistic are we?
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>>3307 >In a world where sex and sexuality is often characterized as dirty, the purifying power of sex could be very interesting to explore. Sure we have the idea of love and how it is redeeming and yea, some of that is a thin veil for sex but it’s rarely spotlighted. Very true, although it's probably fair to say that some kinds of sex come from a purer place than others. >The only thing I would say we have to keep in mind is that the behavior of adventurers still has to be natural, someone had to figure out that sex protects you in this dungeon after all While it could be fun to have our protagonists be the ones to discover this strategic necessity, it could also be that it's a known fact that was discovered by trial&error or luck, like our hunter-gatherer forebears finding out which plants would kill or nourish them. Perhaps a compromise that allows for the most story potential is that this fact, or strong evidence pointing to it, has been discovered only recently, so many characters haven't accepted it yet. One could imagine a foolish girl thinking she can dive the dungeon with just her boyfriend and some platonic friends, and the friends can simply make do with masturbation, only to be proven wrong by events tragic or sexy. One could further imagine our protagonists learning the fate of that party, and a vixen smirking at our quean and saying "Good thing we won't have that problem~" >>3309 >Of the options you proposed, this is closest to what I had in mind. My idea was you have the anchor and self insert fem character the as core at the very start, but everyone else is a sword for hire also a sheath for hire, amirite >I don’t think I’d make the one female MC need to be in the party at all times, but they wouldn’t be able to be dismissed from the guild or anything like that. However, I think there would likely be more widespread appeal if there was just the one man and all the other gals are random since that simplifies things It simplifies some things, but if you want to have dialogue, it can be easier to write with more guaranteed characters. There are pros and cons. Ups and downs. Tops and bottoms. Cute girls are cute, but harem dynamics and cuckqueaning in particular can be rather writing-driven kink. >>3313 >Oh my goodness Anon, my sides have been encircled and destroyed. But what you said here (the first part, not the Pokemon trainer part) caused several things to surface in my mind, and now I have actually lost sleep because I couldn't stop thinking about them. Hopefully I can properly explain them when I'm able to post more thoroughly. I look forward to it, Anon~ If a game never happens at least we had some giggles, right? >>3315 >I still can't believe there are multiple people on this board that are aware of EO. How autistic are we? Is it autistic to be interested in video game design? Well... I mean I haven't played EO in particular... yet... despite recommendations from friends I met on, um, IRC.... sh-shut up!
>>3307 >The only thing I would say we have to keep in mind is that the behavior of adventurers still has to be natural, someone had to figure out that sex protects you in this dungeon after all. I could not agree more. One of the rules I go by when dabbling in the fantastic is that everything must make sense on its own terms. In our example labyrinth's case, understanding how adventurers would discover the basic rules is relatively straightforward: >The one-man rule This presents itself as soon as more than one man is in close proximity, which would be as soon as an average group of explorers/soldiers/etc enter the labyrinth. It's a nasty and brutal way to discover it, but straightforward to understand. >The use of sex The labyrinth's basic effects might include a physical aphrodisiac and induces constant low-hum physical arousal. Those who decided to indulge in a bit of outdoor fun (there's always going to be a few especially adventurous adventurers) found themselves—under various circumstances that together form a body of knowledge studied by one of the character classes—temporarily spared the labyrinth's effects. Some linked this, others didn't, but once that was noticed enough times, someone would have put two and two together and began deliberately experimenting. Adventurers can have all sorts of motivations for diving into a labyrinth, and they'd also try all kinds of different things at its outset. They also tend to be a fairly pragmatic bunch, that being a requirement to last for any length of time in the profession. Like any field of human endeavour, organisation and method would eventually settle into certain accepted patterns based on what's seen to work, as those who survive share knowledge with those who would like to survive. "Sex... actually works? Shit, didn't see that coming, but okay—let's figure out how we can use it." Over time, these discovered rules of thumb codify into what we know as character classes, party organisation, guilds, and so on. Patterns of behaviour and protocol spring up. Like any subculture, the uninitiated outsider is unlikely to be able to understand them because they don't understand the practical history behind them. >even if it’s being somewhat arbitrary so we can make it CQ friendly I don’t think that detracts from the storytelling/worldbuilding potential. I agree. Of course one might roll one's eyes when they fall on a rule like this in a fetish-heavy setting, but I also believe that interesting worldbuilding and storytelling benefits from deft use of restriction. >You gain corruption from lots of things, not just choosing to sex down enemies but also from eating or being in certain places, so corruption is hard to avoid. However, even if corruption can’t be avoided it can be mitigated. You can meditate, you can eat purifying food, you can avoid taking corrupting actions, you can actively destroy corrupted sections of the forest, etc. I've never played CoC and don't plan to, but this is a little how I thought of the nature of the labyrinth's effects. They are the result of actual forces and events, real things that have operating principles. The characters and players don't necessarily have to understand these, but they need to exist, for a player will instantly be able to intuit whether something makes sense on its own terms or not. Settings that don't hew to coherent operating principles or that contradict them at random almost always feel hollow and unsatisfying. Those that do, and which cleverly play with their own operating principles almost always feel interesting and intriguing. Speaking of, I think I've come up with one such fundamental operating principle that works with the example labyrinth and which felt satisfying enough that it sparked further fevered imaginings read: fantasies interesting enough to keep me from sleep. I haven't fully knocked it around, but it does answer the question of why the labyrinth has the effects it does, why sex helps ameliorate them, why it exists in the first place, why it's valuable, and what a party might be able to do in its endgame. I'm writing up a little narrative to show one part of it in action, albeit concealed, for if I just lay it down in plain language without showing what it does I suspect it won't seem as interesting as it feels. >Maybe with more corruption you unlock a different class from a pure playthrough, and this could also drive an ultimate decision to side with the town or not. Alternately a pure/corrupt option could interact where corrupt characters can side with the town for different reasons than pure characters. This would make sense; I'm unsure whether using a direct corruption mechanic like CoC makes sense here, but the general pattern has merit. It seems like this sort of thing might slot well, but I feel like I have to explain more to myself before I can know.
>>3309 >Remakes of 1 and 2 were made with a story mode that had named characters with fixed classes and everything I am surprisingly unimpressed that they did this. It must have seemed like a sensible decision, but somehow also feels like a betrayal of the original risks they took in releasing such a back-to-basics crawler. >I don't need story in my EO games, I'm in it for the dungeon crawl, but there is at least president. One of the things about EO that grabbed me was how, with so little visible effort, they managed to create a world that felt interesting. I shouldn't have found it engaging; it had no story, no player character narrative, nothing that I would normally latch onto, and yet I found myself intrigued. It's that standard of elegant minimalism that gives this design exercise one of its interesting edges. Psst. I have to tell myself this is a design exercise because otherwise I might think about reality and lose the edge. Don't let me know that I told you this! >If we're going for entirely/mostly fixed party characters, a more forgiving respec system would work better since we changed the core design. They also had a respec system where you lose 2 levels to get your skill points back so you can reallocate them, and I think a 2 level penalty to change classes is something that feels better if using fixed party members. Starting in 3 the game let you subclass, where you could pick a second class for a character to get their active skills, though not their passive ones or stat growth. Between a subclass system and a more forgiving re-class system you could definitely make a fixed party work here. Yes. Much as I keep trying to back away from the idea of a fixed party with written characters, I'm starting to see it as inevitable. If that truly is the case, better figure out how to accommodate that. >Of the options you proposed, this is closest to what I had in mind. "Hey, /cuckquean/, here's the full-cuckquean option but it will probably be a bit clunky and alienate those who aren't in it for the queani—" "Yeah, we like that one!" Never change, /cuckquean/. >My idea was you have the anchor and self insert fem character the as core at the very start >If someone isn’t into QC, what do they get from having a GF in the party already? Yeah, this is how I was thinking of it. It seems to me that the obvious way to do this is to create a second role aside from the male Anchor that every party needs, and to assign this to the initial girl. If there's little writing in the game, the matter of the relationship between the guy and girl can be left ambiguous. >However, I think there would likely be more widespread appeal if there was just the one man and all the other gals are random since that simplifies things while still allowing for CQ headcannon. It seems more and more that a fundamental choice is whether to make this an explicitly queany game or a harem game, that choice affecting whether a host of other design decisions work at all. But the thing I'm foolishly trying to reach for here is to contrive a way to have our cake and eat it too—to be able to have something that fundamentally works as a cuckqueaning work and a harem work and a dirty game and a game. I believe it is possible. >The story in Etrian is usually more man vs nature, with many of the beats being worldbuilding about the environment you’re in. I feel that this is the way to go here as well; everything outlined so far is so fundamentally built around the existence and nature of the labyrinth that it's inseperable. It seems like such a simple and boring idea on its surface, but it really ends up being quite a rich vein of implications. >These kinds of stories also don’t need named party characters with extensive writing to make them work. Which is why they're so alluring to the part of me that adores elegance, except for one glaring question that keeps popping up with infuriating regularity: How, without character writing, do you get a party of silent stat-blocks to have socks-rockingly hot harem sex? >Or at least that’s why I got out of it; maybe I’m manufacturing meaning where there isn’t any. As an aside, Anon, that was actually quite beautiful. >the Big Bad wanted to protect the world from that ancient evil or corrupting force and wound up getting corrupted in the process I... actually hadn't thought of this angle! I had just sort of assigned them as a generic warlord/jumped-up bandit and let it sit, but this is much more interesting as a motivation. >There are greater good arguments on both sides, and the decisions can be made more morally complex than I laid them out as but that’s just the first thing that came to mind. The possible dilemmas you listed are very good, even more so because they register to me as plausible. The operating principle I hinted at earlier allows for all of these things. I shall have to mull them further.
>>3315 >How autistic are we? ...Just where do you think we are? But in all seriousness, I didn't think EO was all that obscure. Checking Wikipedia shows me it's had six mainline games, two remakes, and two spinoffs. I think anyone who thinks about games perhaps a little more than the average person would know about dungeon crawlers, which would mean they probably in places where EO would be mentioned by name at very least. >>3316 Those... are nice pictures. The bunnygirl's expressions especially are really cute. >some kinds of sex come from a purer place than others. I suspect a game idea with different roots to this one would already have included a cheesy nine-box sexual alignment system. >Perhaps a compromise that allows for the most story potential is that this fact, or strong evidence pointing to it, has been discovered only recently Under the idea that the labyrinth has had an established adventuring subculture spring up around it, it's completely plausible that the general "meta" around diving would be in flux. But if I read your idea correctly, this would set the game in earlier days, when labyrinth-delving had only just become viable thanks to the puzzle of its sexual nature only just taking shape. Mechanically it's window-dressing... >a vixen smirking at our quean and saying "Good thing we won't have that problem~" ...hot window-dressing. >Cute girls are cute, but harem dynamics and cuckqueaning in particular can be rather writing-driven kink. Ain't that the truth. But as I mused above, it all comes down to whether this game is a game about cuckqueaning or a game that cuckqueans can perhaps enjoy more than the general population. I am looking forward to doing some more thinks about this. It's fun!
>>3320 >I believe it is possible.Which is why they're so alluring to the part of me that adores elegance, except for one glaring question that keeps popping up with infuriating regularity: How, without character writing, do you get a party of silent stat-blocks to have socks-rockingly hot harem sex? You don't, I fear. Well, you can do plain old harem sex with just art. Layered CG or sprite sex, swap out the girls you want involved, maybe some unique art for the right combinations. Queany sex though... I guess the art could have that girl just watching, or only playing support roles like lining up the penetration, kissing, bringing them water. It seems more complicated. But for both harem and queaning situations, it's often infeasible to capture someone's internal thoughts without words. Were we trying to actually make this, I would be hesitant to throw out all possibility of that... and from a more pragmatic angle, I've seen a lot more original writing around here than original art, so there's the idea of playing to one's strengths instead of handicapping oneself. If you have no art and no characterization then you're kinda left with, what, some mad-libs style sex? Write some situations and fill in the blanks with character names? Bleh. Feels super tacked-on. One approach that might work (without resorting to storymode in the EO1/2 remake style), that we've kinda discussed already is to have writing that is flexible based on its participants, and other scenes only happen when the necessary conditions (you have the combination of races/classes/items/events needed). H-game players always want a gallery and it seems appropriate for a game with that kind of unlocks to hint or outright spoil how to unlock gallery items. Possibly, these unlocks can add replay value. >create a second role aside from the male Anchor that every party needs, and to assign this to the initial girl. If there's little writing in the game, the matter of the relationship between the guy and girl can be left ambiguous. Could be an optional but mechanically-encouraged thing somehow, or just something shaped by player's choices or even by class development. If there's writing then it can be an early narrative choice that shapes the later content - let the player establish how the initial couple feel about the relevant matters, and later scenes vary a bit depending on whether the relationship is established to be queany. There are... more and less subtle ways of doing that, the bluntest being no better than having checkboxes for whether the player wants to see compersion, humiliation, and non-queany harem feel (I use checkboxes as a comparison because these flavors are often not mutex. At least, I've been known to have compersive and submissive feels at the same time.) Now if you wanted to have a later-joining girl be the cuckquean, I don't know how that works. Might be difficult. Could be preferable to just give the player significant freedom designing first girl. Or that could be unlocks - find a bunnygirl, and next run your starter girl can be one? Also I admit I have little idea what this second role would do to encourage being cucked. Do we specifically benefit from the energies of an exclusive relationship being opened up? Different kinds of sex do different things, and maybe this kind is important? idk
>>3321 >Under the idea that the labyrinth has had an established adventuring subculture spring up around it, it's completely plausible that the general "meta" around diving would be in flux. But if I read your idea correctly, this would set the game in earlier days, when labyrinth-delving had only just become viable thanks to the puzzle of its sexual nature only just taking shape. Right, I could've expressed that more clearly. I think there are just more situations possible in the early days, with dungeon-diving conventional-wisdom not settled. Parties that would otherwise be prepared caught in compromising situations. Areas that by all rights would be fully mapped and exploited already if people knew what they were doing, but also surprises where an encounter has a twist because some party figured out a poorly-known trick like manipulating the local aphrodisiac traps or gropetacles. It's just easier to justify a wide range of disparate situations this way, I feel. Like my example scenario from >>3316 - if it is Known that you just can't dungeon-dive without sex, our doomed party would need to consist of several people fool enough to ignore everyone's warnings. I have to admit that such a situation makes a very rigid job/class system harder to justify. I dislike a completely inflexible job/class system, so I may be biased. >But in all seriousness, I didn't think EO was all that obscure. Checking Wikipedia shows me it's had six mainline games, two remakes, and two spinoffs. I think anyone who thinks about games perhaps a little more than the average person would know about dungeon crawlers, which would mean they probably in places where EO would be mentioned by name at very least. Dungeon crawler is sort of an amorphous but hardcore subgenre, and EO seems much more popular in Japan. It is also console-focused. If one is not super into the subgenre, or console gaming, or weebery... it's a bit obscure. >Those... are nice pictures. The bunnygirl's expressions especially are really cute. I saw everyone else posting kemonomimi so I just tried to play along. There's probably an EO connection with the others that I didn't recognize. It's board-appropriate content, at least.
Never considered the concept before but not gonna lie, a queany harem dungeon crawler where you go on adventures with your man and vixens/sister-wives sounds like it could be really comfy.
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>>3319 >Speaking of, I think I've come up with one such fundamental operating principle that works with the example labyrinth I look forward to reading it after you've properly mulled it anon! Academically of course. I definitely haven't been schlicking it to this idea or anything. Baka. >>3320 >feels like a betrayal of the original risks they took in releasing such a back-to-basics crawler. Honestly, I feel like the greater betrayal is the dropping of the grittier tone found in the early games. The first two games look innocent, especially early on, but over time you find the dead and the dismembered, you descend the strata by climbing over the bodies of your predecessors who tried and failed, pic related. That contrast was really interesting, and when I was younger it was one of the few times a game actually recognized that adventuring was really dangerous and could get you killed, though EO doesn't make good on that threat through gameplay. Later games kept the bright and shiny veneer without the underlying rot, though it is a little more tonally consistent I suppose so I can’t blame them. >Never change, /cuckquean/. Don't worry, I for one will continue to try my hardest to convince other girls that their proper place is in the corner while their man creams another woman. We can make the game a propaganda piece! >make this an explicitly queany game or a harem game I think taking an angle kind of like TLS might work, where you're constructing a harem but the ladies in the harem are very much about it and can potentially play a role in recruiting new girls to fill the main man's bedroll. Though they can be a little reluctant at first, some trepidation and inner turmoil can be good. I've also been thinking more about it and I think we'd probably need set characters to make the sex really pop. While the fantasy of a rando hottie joining up and seducing my adventuring bf might be nice, it doesn't work as well in a game because we can't get to know her better like we can in the real world. The party members would need to be recruited very early in order to allow the player the ability to engage in party construction, so it should probably as part of the first floor. Or maybe when you recruit new girls, they're all static but from a pool? So all the girls can be fleshed out characters, but the player gets to pick which ones they want based on class, race, looks, or whatever. Maybe the different girls represent different fetishes, and the game will tell you outright that choosing that one will add watersports or this one comes with bloodplay? Scenes can be written for different combinations of girls as well as each girl solo, and if there's a gallery like >>3325 mentions that could give hints for what girl combos might lead to scenes. >>3321 > I didn't think EO was all that obscure It may not be, but I've never met anyone who have heard of it, let alone played it before. And it does seem to be more popular in Japan, and it's also a DS game and the DS seemed to be more popular in Japan as well. It just blows my mind that this board is the place where I would find people who know what it is. Guess it's just a testament to the fact that cuckqueans are some of the best ladies around. >>3325 >Could be an optional but mechanically-encouraged thing somehow, or just something shaped by player's choices or even by class development. Ok, so I have this crazy idea of having chastity in the game where having one girl in chastity gives everyone else in the party a buff. You can put more in chastity if you want for diminishing returns on that buff, or pursue an alternate option that puts no one in a belt, maybe that one rewards you with a buff only for the anchor but its larger than what you get from the chastity buff? Anyway, this whole idea is contrived so I have mechanical reward for putting my self-insert character in chastity while she watches the other girls get “protected from the dungeon’s effects.” >>3327 >I think there are just more situations possible in the early days I agree, and while I just mentioned above that I kind of liked the grim tone of the early games, I think a sexy dungeon probably shouldn't have quite as much death in it. Perhaps the dungeon wants to corrupt you, it wants you to stay and become part of it, so maybe you'd find some fallen adventuring parties that lost their anchor and are now gone feral or something. They aren't dead, just so hungry for dick they will do anything to get it. Death and gore aren't really sexy to a lot of people, so avoiding too much of that can help thematically. Though maybe I'm wrong and those kinds of stakes aren't compelling enough, thoughts? It always did feel a little weird in EO that you're the first one to get all the way to the bottom of the dungeon (or top, in the case of EO2). The games have story reasons for this, of course, but it felt at least a little contrived. We could get around that with the dungeon being newly discovered/newly traversable due to the discovery of sex as a warding against the dungeon. >>3333 >a queany harem dungeon crawler where you go on adventures with your man and vixens/sister-wives sounds like it could be really comfy. It does, doesn't it? I also had the idea to make a sexy version of a non-linear, open world game, something like Romancing SaGa, or Metal Saga. Also, no joke, while trying to remember the name of Metal Saga I came to find that Atlus published that one too. I wonder what other Atlus games I like without knowing who made them.
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>>3351 >Honestly, I feel like the greater betrayal is the dropping of the grittier tone found in the early games. The first two games look innocent, especially early on, but over time you find the dead and the dismembered, you descend the strata by climbing over the bodies of your predecessors who tried and failed, pic related. That contrast was really interesting, and when I was younger it was one of the few times a game actually recognized that adventuring was really dangerous and could get you killed, though EO doesn't make good on that threat through gameplay. This reminds me of roguelikes again. Like, the OG is Nethack (okay not really but nobody plays Rogue), and adventuring was definitely dangerous there. One of the things you can encounter is "bones levels", which are special variants of normal levels except that they're copied from a previous game you played. This is dangerous - most obviously, whatever killed your old character might still be hanging around, though if you remember that death you might be able to prepare better. But some of your old character's hard-won gear might be there too, albeit maybe randomly a teensy bit cursed. But most relevant to this game idea is that the spot of your character's death might be haunted by your old character's ghost, which might be powerful and hostile. So to translate that concept into this game idea, maybe it'd be fun if you could encounter remnants of your failed parties. Maybe you loot the chastity device of your old anchor, but it's got like a curse of vibration that jumps to your gear when you touch it. Maybe you meet an old party member, she's part of the dungeon now and you gotta dick h-- I mean, put her down. Maybe she's clung to sanity and can be recruited! Or maybe... it's not really a former party member at all, but the shapeshifter who killed her? Also, one of the Net features of Nethack was the ability to get surprise "bones levels" from other players' games if you connected to an online server. I doubt this hypothetical game we're discussing would have such a thing, but it does have me feeling some kind of way, to think of adopting a lost lady from some other anon's party, especially an anchor given significant customization. Would it be funny because you get to see another anon's kinks on display? Would it be sad because she's a widow? Or maybe... it's that fucking shapeshifter again. But then, maybe fucking is exactly what she needs? Beat her to recruit her - isn't that how it works in some games? Like Magus in Chrono Trigger, but actually a girl this time. >The party members would need to be recruited very early in order to allow the player the ability to engage in party construction, so it should probably as part of the first floor. Or maybe when you recruit new girls, they're all static but from a pool? So all the girls can be fleshed out characters, but the player gets to pick which ones they want based on class, race, looks, or whatever. Maybe the different girls represent different fetishes, and the game will tell you outright that choosing that one will add watersports or this one comes with bloodplay? There was some Obsidian game... Baldur's Gate 2? Pillars of Eternity? I forget. But you would meet predetermined characters through the game, with the majority in the early areas. And if you didn't care for those, you could "recruit" an adventurer that met your exact specifications via the inn's quest board or something like that. That could work here, and possibly allow for characters who are mostly predetermined but (don't) have the kinks or superficial traits you're (not) into. "Tall, handsome knight seeking staff healer for anchoring duties. Dark hair, light eyes, and perky puffies preferred. Kemonomimi okay, but no harpies or lamias. Must accept chastity. Armor and chastity belt polishing skills a plus..." >Ok, so I have this crazy idea of having chastity in the game where having one girl in chastity gives everyone else in the party a buff. You can put more in chastity if you want for diminishing returns on that buff, or pursue an alternate option that puts no one in a belt, maybe that one rewards you with a buff only for the anchor but its larger than what you get from the chastity buff? Anyway, this whole idea is contrived so I have mechanical reward for putting my self-insert character in chastity while she watches the other girls get “protected from the dungeon’s effects.” I like this. If the anchor selfishly refuses to be put in chastity, it only makes sense for the rest of the party to fuck her man extra spitefully while she shlicks her oh-so-important accessible vulva. Better flick that bean like it's magic, 'cos other than that she's getting jack! >I look forward to reading it after you've properly mulled it anon! Academically of course. I definitely haven't been schlicking it to this idea or anything. Baka. Proper treatment of a tsundere is to give her extra chastity after she says she didn't want to shlick to the sight of her partner cucking her anyway. I'm sure we can incentivize this mechanically too. I can already imagine the party build guides recommending synergistic traits and gear for "anchoring"...
>>3325 >But for both harem and queaning situations, it's often infeasible to capture someone's internal thoughts without words. True. This comes down to the fundamental choice between narratives that the player fleshes out themselves between the lines of mechanically driven events versus the game providing a narrative for them. I, like yourself and >>3351 , am coming to the conclusion that the latter type better suits the design's objectives. With that said, some of the best designs I've seen were trying to escape or bend limitations. It might seem strange to view explicit narrative as a limitation, but I think that keeping it out of the toolbox, at least at first, when thinking about how something might be conveyed can lead to interesting things. Whether those things are not merely interesting but also good is a different story. >Write some situations and fill in the blanks with character names? Bleh. Feels super tacked-on. I agree. A player would quickly find that this becomes stale. In games like Free Cities, where events are almost exclusively conveyed like this, the player pays attention to the mad-libs because they are conveying mechanical information. I personally find that from time to time there is a certain... something to a mixture of ludo-mechanical and sexual, something all its own, but I don't think I could explain how I feel about it without diving into into some fairly detailed and largely tangental speculation. Perhaps others who sometimes feel that special little click already know what I mean. >writing that is flexible based on its participants, and other scenes only happen when the necessary conditions (you have the combination of races/classes/items/events needed) This works well for the reasons you describe, though I would note that the main downfall of this method is that it can become a delicate balance between having to create a great deal of content that most players will never see and not having enough such that the player finds themselves starved for novelty. Games, like stories, need rhythms. >I use checkboxes as a comparison because these flavors are often not mutex. At least, I've been known to have compersive and submissive feels at the same time. Alas—fetishes are both fractal and... whatever the term is when things that are closely related in one category are more likely to interfere in a different category. Difficult? That's not the word, but I think you'll agree it's true. "You got your humiliation in my compersion!" "Well, YOU got your harem in my cuckqueaning!" "Man, I don't know why those two are bitching; these taste GREAT together." I see the path as one that tries to keep out of those weeds by keeping distance from going specific. Hints of certain flavours here and there might hit those who know how to recognise them without turning off those who don't care for them or don't know about them. But whether that works is all in the implementation, isn't it? >>3333 >a queany harem dungeon crawler where you go on adventures with your man and vixens/sister-wives sounds like it could be really comfy Quads of truth. >>3351 >I look forward to reading it after you've properly mulled it anon! It exists and is grinding its way to completion; I hope it will turn out well. >the grittier tone found in the early games I never got that far, but the tone you describe feels right to me for a game like EO. Another thing I loved about what little I played of it was that, in spite of its low-poly limitations—the dungeon felt beautiful and tranquil even though I as the player knew it was deadly and hostile. But it was only deadly and hostile to me. Maybe that's why they had it be a forest? I liked it, either way. >Later games kept the bright and shiny veneer without the underlying rot, though it is a little more tonally consistent I suppose so I can’t blame them. Boo! Boo! Maybe that's how they saw it, but I say that's not tonally consistent at all—unless one finds mono- a desirable tone. >While the fantasy of a rando hottie joining up and seducing my adventuring bf might be nice, it doesn't work as well in a game because we can't get to know her better like we can in the real world. A very good point, and a strong argument in favour of explicitly written characters. >Or maybe when you recruit new girls, they're all static but from a pool? So all the girls can be fleshed out characters, but the player gets to pick which ones they want based on class, race, looks, or whatever. Is this similar to the 'fix the man as "anchor", provide a pool of female members who are their own written characters, but who can be swapped out' option in >>3293 or did you envision it with some additional mechanical details? >Maybe the different girls represent different fetishes, and the game will tell you outright that choosing that one will add watersports or this one comes with bloodplay? Scenes can be written for different combinations of girls as well as each girl solo, and if there's a gallery like >>3325 mentions that could give hints for what girl combos might lead to scenes. Such a game sounds very rich indeed. This kind of additive dialogue and event is not without precedent, as >>3357 reminds us in mentioning the Baldur's Gate era of CRPGs. >I've never met anyone who have heard of it, let alone played it before Huh; I guess keeping strange company has its dividends! >having one girl in chastity gives everyone else in the party a buff >this whole idea is contrived so I have mechanical reward for putting my self-insert character in chastity while she watches the other girls get “protected from the dungeon’s effects.” I thought I would find myself objecting to this as unworkable and contrived even though I like it, but... hmm. I don't know what I'm thinking yet, so I'll put the idea away to stew in its own juices for now. >it wants you to stay and become part of it Broadly, this is close to what I have in mind. Perhaps the example passage I soon hope to post will hint at how it might dovetail. >I wonder what other Atlus games I like without knowing who made them. They're a big house, but they do seem to have a knack for picking up stuff that has that certain something nobody expects to work. >>3357 >One of the things you can encounter is "bones levels", which are special variants of normal levels except that they're copied from a previous game you played. That's an interesting concept! The metaphysical implications of a randomly generated dungeon that suddenly re-routes into part of itself that previously crystalised are a little scary, somehow. >your failed parties >Would it be sad because she's a widow? :( :( I do not like where that self-insertion went. >Maybe you loot the chastity device of your old anchor >staff healer for anchoring duties >synergistic traits and gear for "anchoring" Just as a quick note, so my later posts aren't confusing, the "anchor" role in the examples above is one that can only be filled by a man. If sex—with a man, specifically, though there are some details on alternatives in the passage-to-come—is necessary to hold off the labyrinth's effects then we can think of that man as being the party's "anchor" to their sanity/humanity/selves/whatever, hence the name. >Or maybe... it's that fucking shapeshifter again. Yeah, fuck that shapeshifter! Fucking bitch trying to take on whatever shape she thinks will please him, sometimes several times a day! Know what she needs? Yeah, me too. >her oh-so-important accessible vulva This is the first time I have seen refusal of a chastity belt put in such terms. It is also the first time I have laughed at it. What a bitch, right? Who does that? "Oh, look at me, I'm too fancy to have my pussy locked away!"
I swear they recently increased the character limit for posts here. >>3351 >it wants you to stay and become part of it Maybe if you win, you get to be like "Sure, I'll stay and be part of the dungeon - on my terms." What exactly that means is up to the player I guess. Turn the dungeon into a way to recruit vixens? Make it safer so it's more like an erotic amusement park and/or brothel? Start conquering the world, Overlord style? All of the above? >>3358 >I personally find that from time to time there is a certain... something to a mixture of ludo-mechanical and sexual, something all its own, but I don't think I could explain how I feel about it without diving into into some fairly detailed and largely tangential speculation. Perhaps others who sometimes feel that special little click already know what I mean. I think I get it. There's something weirdly satisfying about procedural generation making something that fits what you wanted, and which might be unique to your experience. Also, I guess, there's something weirdly subby about the uncaring machine accidentally meeting your needs? Like the other anon on here whose path to submissiveness started from her man continuing to pound her while he was engaged in some other activity and not looking at her - rummaging for an item I think. Maybe I'm off base. >I do not like where that self-insertion went. Sorry! It's not something I think the game has to point out. I'm just having fun brainstorming and not every thought is good. I hope it hasn't ruined anything for you. >Just as a quick note, so my later posts aren't confusing, the "anchor" role in the examples above is one that can only be filled by a man. If sex—with a man, specifically, though there are some details on alternatives in the passage-to-come—is necessary to hold off the labyrinth's effects then we can think of that man as being the party's "anchor" to their sanity/humanity/selves/whatever, hence the name. Well, look at me being a dumb cuck who can't read. I thought it meant the girl in the cuckquean role for some reason. I hope readers can understand what I meant. >Yeah, fuck that shapeshifter! Fucking bitch trying to take on whatever shape she thinks will please him, sometimes several times a day! Know what she needs? Yeah, me too. Exactly, she needs you too. The scene isn't complete without the cuck there to watch~ >This is the first time I have seen refusal of a chastity belt put in such terms. It is also the first time I have laughed at it. What a bitch, right? Who does that? "Oh, look at me, I'm too fancy to have my pussy locked away!" She hogs the buffs, they hog her husband. It's only justice!
>>3313 >But what you said here (the first part, not the Pokemon trainer part) caused several things to surface in my mind, and now I have actually lost sleep because I couldn't stop thinking about them. Hopefully I can properly explain them when I'm able to post more thoroughly. I look forward to it. But really, isn't the anchor or possibly his quean sort of like a trainer? Shepherding a party of combatant cuties down victory road? Eh, I guess that's lots of RPGs tho. On the other hand, one of the things that could probably happen in this dungeon is that an opposing party doesn't weigh down their anchor but simply goes on the attack and tries to get rid of yours. Maybe their cuck is just tired of not being able to get fucked and intends to impress yours into the role. Personally I would not want to keep playing a run after that but it might make a good game-over scene for those who are into that. Ah, adventurers are the worst. At least the monsters only want to fuck him, right? Even if they do force you to watch, helpless to even shlick, by turning you into a statue first. Pics related. >>3358 >This is the first time I have seen refusal of a chastity belt put in such terms. It is also the first time I have laughed at it. What a bitch, right? Who does that? "Oh, look at me, I'm too fancy to have my pussy locked away!" I enjoy the kind of mindfuck that can result from reframing things so not wanting to be submissive or participate in some act is unreasonable, even if it's not by a normal person's standards.
>>3362 >I look forward to it. Then allow me to extend my apologies for the delay, Anon. The draft's in editing at the moment.
Thank you for waiting. I've finished that story I first mentioned in >>3319 that shows rather than tells a few of the operating principles I had in mind for the hypothetical EO-like's setting. (Picture unrelated.) Please do let me know your thoughts on it, Anons. LABYRINTH FEVER ‘Look … if there are golden kagu down there in the Emerald Mire,’ – slivers of white had appeared beneath each of Yasu’s irises, two warning flashes stark against her mottled camouflage-paint – ‘and you insist I sweep ahead no further than a stone’s throw from Sten’s thundering racket—’ Leta had managed to keep her face arranged into an encouraging smile, in spite of Yasu’s nonsense. It wasn’t easy, but a commander’s job was to listen, so listen she would. ‘—then they’ll slip away long before I spot them! I’m a sweeper; how can you expect me to do my job if I’m hobbled?’ Leta sucked in a deep breath. ‘Well—’ ‘What if we managed to net even one kagu beak, Commander?’ Yasu’s voice turned silky. ‘Shall I do the sums for you, or did you bring your abacus?’ Leta held back swelling irritation. It was true that even a single filigreed beak would yield coin enough to keep them fed and warm for weeks, but that wasn’t the point. Her gift tempted her, like honey on her lips: sweet and easy to taste, if only she would let her tongue do as it pleased. They were in the great forest-Labyrinth, she was in command, they had a plan, and it was time for Yasu to get back into line – conversation: over. Yet its sweet ease might hook Leta, muffle her ears, slip over her eyes, paralyse the party. No, she was not that sort of leader: she cared. ‘This will be the deepest we’ve dived, with naught to forewarn us save rumour and exaggeration,’ she said. ‘We’ve already a job, remember? Breach the Mire, then explore and map its entrance. It won’t earn us as much as catching even a single golden kagu, true, but it will be enough.’ ‘Enough for what, exactly? A mere survey won’t pay enough to get us ahead of anything!’ ‘It will prove that we can handle ourselves,’ Leta said. ‘I only landed this by cashing in favours and fluffing our record. Nobody of substance will so much as look at us for months – if ever – should we fail. Reputation is our path into the depths, not … not haring off after birds! Do you want us to be common shallows-scrapers forever?’ ‘That’s unfair, you know it’s the opposite of what I—’ Yasu’s eyes scrunched shut, and she pinched the bridge of her nose. ‘I—I don’t … by the Watchers, Leta! How can you be so—’ This conversation, Leta realised, is about to run away with both of us. An argument, like any confrontation, was all about momentum. Time to change direction. ‘Before that, I’m curious: what has you convinced the Mire’s bursting with kagu, little squirrel?’ she purred. Yasu’s tongue tripped, sputtered, and fell silent. Under her paint, Leta knew, blush would be blooming across her cheeks. Her favourite nickname – though she’d never admit it – had struck true. ‘I-In the Horn and Fleece yesterday,’ she said, ‘just before Sofi managed to convince the rest of you to help her polish off that half of Stevorian draakblud—’ ‘An excellent drink and experiment both!’ said Sofi, their artificer, presently filling their canteens from the grassy clearing’s spring. ‘Now we know that our Eir here can fit—eek!’ A splash preceded the redhead’s squeal: Eir, their tired-eyed phylacter, had chosen cold spring water over words. ‘A-Anyway,’ Yasu continued, ‘w-while you were all getting sloshed, I happened to be—’ ‘Eavesdropping?’ Leta raised an eyebrow. ‘—turning my attention to the right place at the right moment, yes,’ Yasu said. Her lips were pressed together tightly; Leta had not defused her anger, merely delayed it. ‘Someone has to.’ But hadn’t Yasu – sweet, agreeable Yasu – spent last night happily encamped on Sten’s lap? Yes, she had: ‘I can’t help that I happen to fit here!’ was what she’d said when Sofi accused her of hogging it. Sofi capped the last of the canteens and stood. ‘Don’t pretend you didn’t eventually end up as in your cups as the rest of us, darling Yassie!’ she said. ‘Unless … no! You were sober when you …?’ Yasu had not been sober. Sten had ribbed her about how quickly the draakblud set her cheeks aflame, Eir had joined the teasing in her own way – something about body weights and quickening drink to water – then Sofi had laughed and filled Yasu’s cup anew, which Leta playfully stole and finished before their sweeper could lift it to her lips… Yes, something was wrong. Sofi’s little jibe confirmed it – Yasu had indeed been with them the whole evening; they would have noticed if she suddenly sobered up and skulked off into the smoky dark. ‘Sober!’ Yasu spat. ‘I was sober enough then to know what I heard, and I’m sober enough now to know what I’m seeing.’ ‘What …?’ Yasu’s body tensed like a tripwire; suddenly she was on the balls of her feet. ‘We’re supposed to be mapping, are we? Mapping a mire where the trails shift whenever there’s more than a dram of rain?’ ‘I don’t—that’s why we were hired, the old maps’re—’ ‘Yeah? That so? Kagu aside, if we were really surveying then you’d want me sweeping wider, not stuck in the mud next to you!’ Leta took another deep breath. Dissent was natural and to be welcomed, she told herself. If she used her gift to make herself a petty tyrant, would there be a way back? ‘I’m always willing to accept that I’m wrong,’ she said. ‘Shall we go over the plan again?’ ‘Not likely,’ – Yasu’s voice had dropped to a growl – ‘since we all know the real plan is to get rid of us.’ ‘W-What?’ Leta found her mind and lungs empty. Sofi and Eir quietly rose to their feet. Sofi’s face was as confounded as Leta felt. Eir’s red-pupilled stare was, as usual, unreadable. Yasu’s pupils were two yawning voids; her hands twitched towards the tools strapped to her harness. ‘Oh yes. You think I haven’t seen the signs? You want Sten to yourself again!’ Sten, on patrol along the writhing riot of giant trunks that formed the Labyrinth, briefly glanced their way. But he didn’t turn; he kept watching the tree-line over the top of his great shield. Very helpful, beloved husband, Leta thought, then silently reprimanded herself. Sten was, as the party’s anchor, exactly where he needed to be. The part of Leta that called orders in battle took control. Yasu had become dangerous: what was to be done? Back off? Placate her? Attack? But what if she fled? A lone girl in the Labyrinth, anchorless, was as good as swallowed. That would solve the present problem, of course. But that was monstrous; not an option; there was no time— No, there was a way – petty tyrant-hood or no. Leta reached inside and roused the sleeper coiled around her windpipe; her throat stirred, stretched, came alive. ‘Little squirrel,’ – her voice was no longer entirely her own – ‘let’s not fight? Come here.’ The voice had lived in Leta since her first dive. She didn’t ‘speak’ with it, that wasn’t enough; it unfurled: rich, layered, velveteen, wrapping ear and mind. Yasu’s eyes unfocused; she took a single, uncertain step. Leta opened her arms and let the after-resonances do their work. After a moment, Yasu shuffled into Leta’s embrace. Leta had only a brief window, but she needed to be sure. She pulled off a leather glove and, as though fussing a small animal, rubbed her fingertips into the shorter woman’s scalp. It burned hot to the touch. A hand on Yasu’s shoulder, a quick shift of her own weight, and Leta had the shorter woman flipped around with her arms pinned. Yasu snapped stiff, as though woken from a dream, then melted herself into a thrash of slippery joints. ‘You whore! I knew it! I fucking knew it!’ ‘Eir?’ Leta barely managed to keep Yasu in her grasp; if she escaped now, there’d be nothing anyone could do. Their phylacter padded over, bristling with belts and bandoleers. Her gloomy monotone was as dark as the fatigue ringing her eyes. ‘About time you put your foot down,’ she said. ‘Was afraid you’d resort to hand-feeding next.’ ‘W-What?’ Leta had not expected that. Didn’t she understand what Leta was trying to avoid? Eir’s red pupils were implacable. ‘We all have our jobs.’ ‘I—’ Had Leta’s style of command not been appreciated for its restraint, but resented for its negligence? Had she not strengthened their bond – no party whose women abhorred each other would be able to survive the Labyrinth for long – but strained it? Eir waited for Yasu to wear herself down, then darted in and pulled her neck-wrap away. ‘Help me!’ – Yasu squirmed in Leta’s grasp – ‘She’ll come for you next! We have to, we have to—’ Beneath the sweeper’s scarf, a small paper talisman was stuck to her neck. Leta insisted that everyone in their party wore one, although Yasu’s wrap usually hid hers from view for reasons of camouflage. In the middle of the paper strip, flanked by Eir’s spidery hand, lay a circle impregnated with a costly alchymical solution that was sensitive to temperature and sweat. The circle on their sweeper’s strip was a fiery orange. ‘Eir, plea—hold still!—please make sure all’s well with our little squirrel,’ Leta said. ‘I’d dearly like this fuss to have been for nothing.’ ‘Get this bitch off me! W-Why aren’t any of you helping? She’s going to kill us!’ ‘Your talisman has tripped.’ Leta made sure her voice stayed slow, calm. That seemed to get through; Yasu paused, panting. ‘Bullshit. Eir can see I’m fine. Can’t you, Eir?’ Eir made a small noise in her throat, placed one hand on the sweeper’s forehead and the other against her neck. ‘Heart’s normal, considering exertion,’ she murmured. ‘Won’t be able to see anything under her skin at this time of day, so nothing one way or the other there. But she’s burning, alright …’ ‘I feel fine,’ Yasu said, ‘and we’re still high up! How could I be going under already? Are you … Gods above, are you in on this—’ ‘Hold still.’ Eir deftly slipped her index and middle fingers down Yasu’s belly, into her short, skin-tight breeches. Yasu sucked in a sharp breath; Eir’s fingers had found their target. A couple of muffled squelches later, they withdrew, soaked in the sweeper’s syrupy juices. They were in the Labyrinth, where they were always wet, even here in the shallows. Eir stuck out her tongue, smeared her fingers across it, then peered into a small mirror sewn into her sleeve. A wash of daylight stars bloomed across the pink firmament of Eir’s tongue, hundreds of tiny blue lightning flashes glittering and sparkling. Purple flares erupted here and there. At another time, in another place, it might have been beautiful. Eir’s tongue darted back into her mouth; she sucked her fingers clean and swallowed the tiny galaxy with practiced ease. ‘No,’ – Yasu was whimpering – ‘we’re not deep enough … Eir’s in on this! She has to be!’ Eir pulled a vial filled with viscous amber liquid – ‘brace, divers called it – from a brightly-marked pouch on Yasu’s harness. She threw back her head and decanted it into her mouth, then swished it around as if she were merely scraping her teeth before bed. Sofi appeared beside Leta, holding a short coil of cord. Leta let the redhead work, careful not to give Yasu an opening. ‘Sofi? Y-You’re—you too?’ Yasu slumped, suddenly small and defeated. ‘P-Please, if you’re going to … just let me into the Mire alone, it’d be better than this …’ Eir waited until their sweeper’s arms were well-bound, then slipped a hand around the back of her neck and leaned in. Yasu’s well-drilled reflexes answered: her lips parted at the first brush from the phylacter’s soft kiss. Their mouths joined, muscle memory took over, and the shorter woman carefully drank every drop. When Eir finally pulled away, the black-haired sweeper was panting, her body slack. ‘I—oh, by Nagra, I remember!’ she cried. ‘Back at the Giant’s Spine – I was covering our descent down the eastern scramble – I stepped on a patch of redglass growing under the ferns!’ Eir wiped her mouth with the back of her hand. ‘Did it burst?’ ‘It must have,’ Leta said, ‘or Yasu wouldn’t be in this state.’ ‘I’m sorry! I … I don’t know how I forgot, it’s—oh, the things I said!’ ‘Easy, little squirrel,’ Leta said, ‘it’s not your fault. Redglass shouldn’t grow this high, and its fever hides itself from its victims; it was I who should have noticed earlier.’ Yasu had been redglassed. The fact, revealed, snaked like a noxious vine through the situation. So much for caring for her party. What good was such care, Leta wondered, if it stopped her from doing her job? First Eir’s remark, now this! Eir had her hands back on Yasu’s forehead and neck. ‘She seems stable, but redglass is tricky – anchorless contact just shocks it into dormancy.’ ‘Dormancy?’ Sofi said. ‘Not dead, just asleep,’ Eir said. ‘Asleep inside Yasu.’ Sofi pouted. ‘I know what the word means. I meant: what will happen to Yassie? Will it wake back up?’ ‘Uncured, it might stay down or it might surge back. No way to tell. But if it does come back, it’ll come faster and stronger than before.’ Attacks of feverish paranoia were bad enough in the Labyrinth’s green shallows, but they would be a recipe for tragedy in the treacherous mire below. ‘But … we can’t afford to fail the survey! I’ll stay close,’ – Yasu leaned back into Leta – ‘so you can all keep close watch on me. If we kiss often then—’ Eir shook her head. ‘It’ll be the same infection when it comes back, so more of the same will help very little – even if it’s with Leta or Sofi, and even with the ‘brace helping things along.’ ‘And through Sten?’ Leta said. A part of her marvelled at how straightforward it had become to suggest that Eir and Yasu make out with her husband; she found herself more concerned by the possibility of ambush! Eir tapped her index finger against her lips. ‘Again, hard to tell. I’ve tasted Yasu’s response to the redglass so my body will already be adapting. But … even though I’m a phylacter, anything short of a full join is going to be a gamble. A kiss-join through our anchor might work – once – or it might not.’ ‘Ooh!’ Sofi’s voice was suddenly a little too loud. ‘I vote for the full join!’ Sten’s head swivelled back towards them from the tree-line, inquiry carved into the curve of his brows. Not that Leta could blame him; that term was guaranteed to get any anchor’s attention. Many would by now have broken watch to see what the fuss was about, but not Sten: he kept to his post, reliable to a fault. She ignored Sofi’s outburst and pressed on. ‘So if we march down into the Mire now,’ – Leta thought aloud – ‘there’s a strong chance that our little squirrel here will be swallowed, yes?’ The possibility trickled down Leta’s neck like ice water; she imagined Yasu’s body damned to wander the accidental passages that ran through the Labyrinth’s tangle of roots, splitting and twisting like a behemoth’s veins. None could truly say they knew what happened in its uncharted depths, after all. There were rumours of a few divers who’d been rescued – struggling like rabid animals in their saviours’ grasp – before they’d managed to wander beyond help. Perhaps somewhere down there still lurked those who were swallowed up, or so Leta hoped. How else were she and Sten to redeem themselves? Insisting on consent and consensus was, in some ways, much easier: with everyone responsible, there was no-one to blame. Yasu lifted her chin. ‘The survey comes first. There might not be enough time if you cure me. I’m just a tool; tools don’t care when they break. My village will send another to carry on my work if I fall, so—’ Leta carefully unclenched her teeth. ‘How dare you?’ she said. ‘What? I—’ Yasu seemed genuinely taken aback. A strange mist seemed to have blanketed the clearing. ‘How dare you try to gamble yourself for … for money!’ ‘It’s not money, it’s the mission. Next to the hope of stopping the Labyrinth’s spread, I’m nothi—ow, Leta, you’re hurting—’ ‘I—don’t—care!’ Leta realised she was shaking the smaller woman, clamping down on her upper arms. She relaxed her hands, took a shuddering breath, and tried to keep the quaver from her voice. ‘Money or mission: neither’s worth losing you! I won’t ask you to change how you were raised, but if you won’t care about yourself then at least think of us! How would we feel if you get yourself swallowed for the sake of … of a map?’ ‘I,’ – Yasu hung her head – ‘I’m sorry.’ Yet, that dispassionate part of Leta whispered, Yasu had a point. Losing both money and face would send them straight back to schlepping the shallows. Could they – could Leta herself – afford that? She wasn’t here to end the Labyrinth’s creeping expansion; her aim, and Sten’s, was personal, and with every sunset their redemption retreated further into darkness. Pressing on would bring them out ahead, yet the Labyrinth insisted upon terrible stakes: Yasu’s life, possibly her soul. Yasu herself had been trained to see this as a mere detail, her life as a piece to be sacrificed, but Leta had never been able to bring herself to see her companions that way. Sofi couldn’t wait any longer. ‘If we want to stay here for, you know, a little while … I can set up the new repulsion posts. This is the perfect opportunity to test them!’ The posts in question were strapped to the side of Sofi’s pack: long spikes topped by reciprocating mechanisms. They’d provide reliable respite – especially welcome in the night-time Labyrinth’s swarming dark – as long as Sofi lavished them with care and fed them a steady diet of the expensive, tar-like goop that filled the canisters strapped below her pack . Eir sighed. ‘Mention joining and suddenly Sofi’s all for a short halt.’ It was true; Leta sometimes found the redhead’s enthusiasm for her husband a little off-putting. ‘But will that leave enough, uh … black reagent for tonight?’ Eir said. ‘It’s not a reagent, Eirrie!’ Sofi said. ‘It’s a kind of oil from a northern lake-weed; you can tell by its smell!’ ’I’m proud,’ Eir said, ‘to say that I cannot. The rest of us don’t sniff every foul ichor that you artificers use.’ ‘You’re missing out! But as to how much we have, I, um …’ ‘You’re not sure?’ Leta found herself surprised; Sofi could be an airhead, but she knew her job well. ‘The posts are new! I have to get to know them.’ Sofi’s brows furrowed defensively. ‘But it’ll be tight. Maybe if someone hadn’t insisted that our finances were too thin to take on a few extra drams—’ ‘Don’t you start, too,’ Eir said. ‘I’ll have developed an accounting allergy by the time this is over.’ Yasu’s head hung a little lower. There was one last option that any sensible party kept in mind: retreat. They could turn around and march back up, Yasu trussed between them if need be, into the town’s raucous embrace. If the redglass fever was like any of the Labyrinth’s other sicknesses, it would burn itself away as soon as they left the forest behind. Without needing to replace any repulsion oil, they could make a few shallow dives and scrape together enough to replenish their supplies. It would be a thin few days, but it would be safe. Yet as soon as the guards spotted them returning ahead of schedule, word would reach their client far faster than Leta could. Some swift talk might keep the contract in their hands, but nobody would be impressed by divers who struggled to leave the shallows for a mere survey. Time to get consensus, came the habitual thought. ‘Well, everyone—’ No. There was no consensus, and it was not the right time to reach one. Blindly following the same method every time was no way to serve her party. Leta cleared her throat and readied an order.
>>3383 (cont.) ‘Sofi,’ she said, ‘make us safe here.’ ‘Aye, boss,’ Sofi said. The bubbly, flirty notes in her voice evaporated – Sofi the artificer was back. She shouldered her pack and hustled toward the tree-line. ‘Sten!’ Leta called. ‘Assist Sofi. We are making a short halt.’ Sten turned toward them, then, briefly. Their anchor must have overheard enough to know, roughly, what was coming, for the bastard was grinning. He raised his arm in acknowledgement, and jogged to help lay the repulsion posts. Leta lowered herself to a kneel, gently bringing the bound Yasu down with her. ‘Phylacter,’ Leta said, ‘I believe a joining is in order. If you please?’ ‘Commander,’ Eir demurred. Her hand disappeared into one of her many pouches, and emerged holding a round vial filled with clear gel. Leta’s stomach tightened. It was too smooth, too easy. A simple series of orders had them moving as one, each doing their jobs, trusting that everyone else would do theirs. Was this the right way to do things, or merely the first step into the tyranny that so many shattered parties later recounted? Leta propped Yasu’s head against her leather-clad knees, and carefully loosened the short woman’s tunic. Yasu’s blush had crept all the way down over her chest; her breath came in little bursts. She looked up into Leta’s eyes. ‘I … I always wonder how you can stand to just … watch while we … you know …’ ‘While you all join?’ Was that a little chuckle in her voice? ‘I often do more than sit, and besides – I’m a commander. Why wouldn’t I supervise?’ ‘I know, but … it’s just, you were with Sten first …’ ‘Yes,’ – Leta deftly unbuckled Yasu’s harness and loosened her short breeches for her, trying to tamp down the roiling butterflies in her own belly – ‘and nothing will ever change that.’ The man in question jogged up in an armoured clatter. ‘Perimeter’s almost rigged,’ he said. ‘Sofi’s double-checking the last linkage; said I was getting in the way.’ ‘So,’ – he took in Leta undressing the wide-eyed Yasu, Eir carefully mixing a thin shimmering liquid into the clear gel – ‘nothing to worry about, then?’ ‘Shouldn’t be,’ Leta said, ‘but best to be prepared, yes? Sofi fill you in?’ Their anchor’s flippancy was both calming and contagious. ‘Enough to know what my part’ll be.’ Sten knelt and unbuckled his bedroll. ‘Yasu, lift your hips for me? That’s a girl.’ Between Leta’s lap and the bedroll beneath her hips, Yasu was quite comfortably suspended above the clearing’s grass. Leta found herself mesmerised by how gentle yet firm Sten was with the sweeper. Leta un-knotted the cord that secured the side of Yasu’s short breeches, then helped her pass a boot through them so that they were out of the way. ‘Thank you, Comm—um, Leta’ Yasu said, ‘I’m sorry … I mean, thank you. It means a lot that you’d all do this for, for me.’ ‘You’d do it for us, wouldn’t you?’ Eir said, archly. She capped the round vial, held it by the neck, and used her other hand to gave it a brisk flick so that the gel within swirled together with the liquid; a thousand minute rainbows erupted within. ‘Don’t think for a moment that Commander Leta would sacrifice any of us for convenience; that’s one of the reasons I’m here.’ The mist was back. ‘I—’ But Leta could not finish her thought, for out of Yasu’s throat rose a long, hollow rattle. Her eyes rolled back in her head, and when they flicked back they were no longer filled with gratitude, but with terror. ‘All done, boss!’ Sofi called. She hustled up to join them, red locks bouncing. ‘It’d take a charging herd of fire-rams to so much as put a dent in our—oh.’ The redglass had not lain dormant for long. ‘W-W-Why—why am I—no, you’re all—’ Yasu may have screamed, had her training not burned the reflex out of her. Leta was no shallows-scraping rookie: her body moved on its own, honed reflexes guiding her fingers to her own specially-marked pouch. In one motion she uncapped the vial of amber fluid within and splashed its contents into her mouth. A quick swish into each of her cheeks made sure her saliva was properly mixed in, and then her lips were on Yasu’s. She was no phylacter, but as Leta kissed the ‘brace past Yasu’s lips the black-haired woman’s breathing eased just a little, and as they parted a fragile skin of intelligence stretched itself over the roiling madness in her eyes. Leta could think and feel and question herself all she liked, but when the need was most urgent it was reflex and instinct that ruled. She had done the right thing, and in time. ‘Well,’ – Eir tossed the vial of gel to Sofi, whose face lit up in delight – ‘now that this is urgent …’ ‘Go ahead, Phylacter,’ said Leta. ‘Braced triple classical,’ Eir said. This was shorthand for the arrangement they would take; the lexicon was as familiar to any halfway experienced Labyrinth diver as their own name. ‘This has to be a river-join; I’ll be Source, Yasu’ll be Sink, Sofi our Switch, and Commander Leta our Supervisor. Let’s go.’ ‘Only take off as much as you need to, everyone,’ Leta added. ‘We do not plan to stay.’ Suddenly the party was abustle: unbuckling armour, loosening belts, lowering breeches, removing anything that would interfere with the coupling to come. ‘I—I—’ Yasu groaned. ‘Hold on, little squirrel,’ Leta murmured. The twin bows that held Yasu’s minimal undergarments in place released easily; Leta gently slipped the scrap of fabric up and off, then carefully folded it into one of her pockets. Copper-haired Sofi had managed to get a hand into Sten’s britches with her usual speed, and she was sloppily kissing her way up his neck. The little patches of spit she left behind cold-boiled into puffs of phosphorescent steam that whirled and sank into his skin. Eir, methodical as ever, had just finished unfastening the front and rear panels of her skirt. She rolled them up and hooked them into place under her belt. The blonde phylacter had shown her usual disdain for underwear by not wearing any. Why bother at all, went her rationale, if they were just going to end up soaked – not to mention removed – anyway? Sofi, her lips now greedily locked to Sten’s, pulled forth her handiwork from his britches: his beautifully engorged cock. Even half-dressed and with a copper-haired artificer hanging off him, Sten somehow managed to project the usual air of unhurried, unworried solidity with which he did everything, whether that was turning aside the Labyrinth’s slavering denizens with his shield or seeing to the party’s nightly needs. Perhaps for an anchor, Leta reflected, it was all part of the same thing. Just as her gift coiled around her throat, so too did his wrap around his waist where it stabilised and solidified him. Sten’s exposure was all the signal Eir needed; the blonde daintily pulled a wisp of hair back over her ear and dropped to all fours over Yasu, face level with Leta’s chest. ‘Ready, big boy?’A thin strand of spit still joined Sofi’s lips to Sten’s. It glimmered with its own light, just as Eir’s tongue had. Sofi slowly poured the round vial’s gel into her palm, making a production of applying it to Sten’s cock. ‘If you wouldn’t mind, Sofi,’ – Eir rolled her eyes – ‘some of us would like to get on with things.’ Sofi laughed. ‘Aww, see how badly our Eir wants you, stud? She’s practically begging.’ Eir made no reply, other than a demanding hurry-up wriggle of her hips. Sten’s gaze found Leta’s. She gave a subtle twitch of her lips and a flick of her eyes – a suggestion flashed in their own intimate semaphore. ‘Way I see it,’ said Sten, seizing Sofi by the back of her scalp, ‘so are you. Time to do your job.’ She erupted in a delighted little giggling squeal as he firmly guided her down to her place next to his crotch. Yasu, her bottom lip seized between her teeth, yelped as the redhead’s fingers deftly applied the cool, slippery gel. The Labyrinth’s effects had long removed any need for further lubrication, but the gel enhanced joining, just as the amber fluid enhanced kissing. Eir, likewise, closed her eyes and let out a long frustrated groan as Sofi’s slippery fingers turned their attention her way. From there commenced the joining. Leta couldn’t help but smile as Sten’s hips finally slid forward; the little tremble in Eir’s first moan harmonised beautifully with his satisfied, slightly smug expression. He would start slow – she was still adjusting to his size – before his strokes lengthened and his hips began to beat out a rhythm against her backside— The tamped-down butterflies escaped; a burst of frightened adrenaline detonated behind Leta’s ribs. Since when had she begun picking out little details of her husband seeing to other woman? She was no longer merely enduring the sex as a necessary joining of an anchor and the girls on his ring: she was appreciating it, as though it were a favourite dish or song! Why was she smiling? No woman in her position should! Might this be, then, just another of the Labyrinth’s slow sicknesses spreading its roots behind her eyes? Was she being warped, as the redglass fever had warped Yasu? Would she wake up one morning to find that she couldn’t stay out of the Labyrinth for more than a week without erupting in terrible sweating withdrawal tremors, like Eir? She suddenly needed Sten, ached to talk to him, somewhere away from these others whose rampant enthusiasm for her husband tied her into confused knots – but of course he was balls-deep in Eir, making the phylacter’s dirty blonde hair sway lewdly with every thrust, so very reliable that he hadn’t time to take care of her, his own wife, the bastard— A whimpering sob pulled Leta back to the present. Yasu, trembling, had her gaze fixed on the moaning phylacter above. Occasional sparks of terrified rage flickered across her face; the last delicate thread that anchored her to reality, tied there by Leta’s kiss, was fraying. Her eyes rolled back, and for a moment Leta feared that they were already too late. But a heartbeat later, Yasu’s brown eyes returned, and what Leta saw in them shook her. Beneath her body’s arousal and anticipation, beneath the redglass-paranoia’s swarming buzz, beneath even a sweeper’s ordinary professional brutality, Yasu was afraid. In spite of her village’s training, her protestations of expendability, her usual quiet grace under pressure, the black-haired, pretty-faced woman whose head Leta now cradled in her lap was terrified, vulnerable. She wasn’t merely waiting, but holding on to life with every ounce of ragged strength she had left in the hope that her companions would save her. But could they? Had the fever advanced so far that a single full join wouldn’t be able to burn it out? Perhaps there was still time to retreat. They could still truss Yasu up and flee back through the shallows; there would be no need for Leta’s husband to cum in another woman, no need for her to think about how it was all she could think about—
>>3384 (cont.) Speaking of which, shouldn’t Sten have already been switched? ‘Sofi?’ Leta called. ‘If you please?’ The only response was a low gurgle. Eir’s rear obscured the details, but certain sounds combined with the bobbing of a copper-haired head above said rear’s horizon left no doubt as to where Sofi had chosen to put Sten’s cock. ‘Sofi!’ Leta called. She was not entirely surprised, nor pleased. Whenever Sofi had the chance to get her hands on Sten, no matter how, all of the redhead’s common sense drained out through her pussy. Leta couldn’t deny that she found it endearing, in its own way – ah, there was another spike of fear-adrenaline – but still, how could Sofi have chosen now of all times to play the cock-drunk fool? The adrenaline flashed into anger, and Leta only just managed to bite down before she shouted. A Supervisor provided calm direction: they remained above the sexual fray to make sure a field-join ran smoothly and achieved what it needed to achieve. Yet her throat was frozen; the words wouldn’t come. She looked up, straight into Sten’s eyes. His relaxed grin was there as usual, but beneath, in a place only Leta could see, a smouldering ember of concern had flickered into life. It wasn’t concern for the situation, it was concern for her. In the midst of group sex, surrounded by women, he’d spotted her struggle, and though he didn’t know its details he knew she was distressed. Sten – her husband, Sten – could read her as well as she could read him, and in that moment Leta realised two things. First, that she loved him more than anyone in the world, and second, that she needed him to cum not only in Yasu, but later in Eir, in Sofi, in her, and in as many others as the fates saw fit to put beneath him. She didn’t understand why, didn’t need to: she’d always had this nameless hunger inside her. Her insides pulsed molten; a pillar of pure bright flame connecting her mind and pussy. Even if her sister Livia, reckless in heartbreak, had never thrown herself into the Labyrinth, Leta would still have found herself, one way or another, smiling as Sten fucked someone else. Commander and anchor. Rudder and ballast. There was a rhythm to the two of them, she saw that now: a time to steer and a time to release the wheel. ’Sten,’ – Leta had never heard her own voice so smooth, so natural, so loving – ‘get Sofi for me, would you?’ Sten winked, sank his fingers around Sofi’s scalp, gripped, and pulled as though harvesting a particularly unruly carrot. Sofi surfaced into Leta’s view with a wet pop, her lips smeared lewdly with a mixture of reagent gel, spit, precum, and pussy juice. The blend phosphoresced only gently; Yasu’s redglassing aside, they’d neither dived deep enough nor tarried long enough in the Labyrinth to kindle anything stronger. Leta tried again. ‘Sofi!’ The redhead blinked hazily and licked her own lips in a most undignified fashion. Sten gave Sofi’s head a little shake, followed by two gentle taps on her cheek. ‘Our commander’s talking to you, girl,’ he said. He’d folded in just enough growl to cut through to the artificer’s more sensible side. ‘I know,’ Sofi slurred, ‘what’cha need, Leta-Commander?’ ‘Did you forget your role?’ ‘Aw, Commander, I’m sorry,’ – Sofi was plainly not – ‘I’ll be good, I promise.’ Yasu let out a desperate little whimper from Leta’s lap. Leta did not break eye contact with Sofi. ‘Anchor,’ she said, ‘please assist our errant artificer in remembering how she is to perform her role.’ ‘Aye.’ Sten pressed Sofi’s head down to be level with his hips again, then held her in place to forestall any further out-of-order oral interruption. The last thing Leta saw on Sofi’s face before it sank behind Eir’s butt once more was the mischievous sparkle that only appears in the eyes of a brat who’s getting what she wanted all along. Something clicked; the joining found its rhythm. Every part, every person slid into harmony with every other, time and meter lewdly transferred through moan, thrust, and press. Sten would press forward and ride Eir, grab her dirty blonde mane, and slap his hips against her bottom the way she vehemently denied liking best. His part with the phylacter done, he’d pull back and have Sofi press his cock down into Yasu’s slickly swollen slit. After reducing the black-haired sweeper to a mewling mess with the long hammer-slams she adored, he’d pull out and press Sofi’s mouth onto his cock so the cheeky copper-top could suck him clean. Then, before Sofi could somehow conspire to get herself stuck down there, he’d pull her off and start the cycle anew. They had joined into a single pleasure-pattern beating against the Labyrinth’s canopy, and when their crescendo came it came beautifully: first Yasu, their little squirrel, cried out and stiffened, swollen honey-dripping slit milking Sten’s cock as she shuddered and groaned. Perhaps that was what touched off Sofi, too; the choked moans from near Sten’s midsection told all who cared to listen that she and her busy fingers had collaborated on an especially powerful orgasm – not that Sofi had any other kind. Sten, reliable anchor that he was, allowed Yasu’s contractions and Sofi’s cries to tip him over the edge. His lips pulled back in a snarl; he growled from deep in his chest, hands locking to whatever female flesh they could find, pulling it against him, ancient instinct insisting that he flood himself into waiting wombs as deeply and completely as possible. It was wonderful. Underneath Eir, Yasu rode her orgasm’s aftershocks, yet there was more: from her belly spread a ring of light, a million ghostly blue and orange lightning-flashes spreading fast as grass-fire beneath her skin. Eir’s duty discharged, the phylacter abandoned dignity to need: she dropped her blonde head, demandingly jerked her hips, and let out a pitiful whine. Sten, sucking in deep, satisfied breaths, came back to himself. Almost delicately, he crooked his thumb and forefinger where Leta could see, then lowered them to Eir’s rear. Though Leta could not see the details, she knew well enough what he was about to do; sure enough, Eir’s head jerked up, wholly unjustified astonishment painted across her face. A moment later her arms collapsed as she was ambushed by the kind of fast-slam orgasm one can only have from having one’s tightest hole and clit skilfully hit at the same time. Leta waited until Yasu’s tremors subsided, then gently laid the sweeper’s head onto the soft mossy ground. Her own insides glowed white-hot. She rose to her feet; it was time for something that she had never before permitted herself. It was a mess, of course – slick fluids still glowing and flickering. Yet, Leta reflected as she lowered herself to her knees, that was how she liked it. First was Sofi, still held in Sten’s vice grip, who giggled and tried to steal a kiss as Leta lapped the glimmering aftermath from around the redhead’s mouth. Eir’s pussy was splayed lewdly, yet the spatter of slippery glow that coated her puffy lower lips was no more than a few tonguefuls. Next was Sten, whose cock had gone to half-mast but dripped deliciously with mingled juices; a few drops of pearly cum clung to his cock-head. As Leta positioned herself, Sofi regarded her balefully but – for once – knew better than to say anything. Leta gently cradled Sten’s cock in both hands and lapped most of the creamy, slippery mix off him with long, broad tongue-strokes, swallowing after each cock-length. Then, her attentions having firmed up his member, she gave his head a loving kiss before pushing it past her lips and slowly sinking down, down, savouring its warmth and firm smoothness, letting its heady cocktail of scent and taste tell her tales of whom it had been inside, until she felt it about to touch the soft part at the back of her throat. But she couldn’t be dissuaded; she simply took a deep breath, grabbed the back of Sten’s thighs, gazed up at his face for a moment, and pulled herself down. Sten’s cock-head slipped right past that tricky little tickle and down into her throat until her nose filled with his pubic hair’s heady musk. After that was the simple matter of counting to three, tightening of her lips to form a seal, and then she was sucking back up his shaft, taking the evidence of his part in the joining with her. She made sure to give Sten a saucy wink and a tongue-flick as his cock-head popped past her lips, just to seal the deal. ‘Wow,’ Sofi said. ‘Yes,’ Sten agreed. ‘She is my wife, after all.’ But Leta paid no attention, for she was already descending on the shining white stream flowing from Yasu’s splayed slit. A few broad, scooping laps collected all that had dribbled out, and another few cleaned Yasu’s neat lower lips. Much of the rest, pumped deep, was out of Leta’s reach, but with a good lip-seal and her determined tongue she still managed to scoop, suck, and swallow a good half-mouthful back out. Leta rolled onto her back, and in the space of a single exhalation found herself aware of Yasu’s quiet panting, Eir’s stirring, and Sten’s wry quip as Sofi – finally released from his grip – noisily set to cleaning his balls. But all these were mere sensations picked up by her body, facts collected from a single point in the Labyrinth’s physical projection. The forest’s myriad wet scents unfolded themselves below the Joining’s lewd cocktail, each subtle piece manifest and complete in itself. She felt the kiss of approaching rain, heard the distant calls of the forest’s creatures, saw the subtle fluctuations of green-fire sweeping the trees that surrounded them – these, and a thousand other details, refracted through her as though she were a perfect prism, a single sieve through which the world – itself revealed as an infinity of the tiniest brushstrokes – filtered and knew itself. So it was that for a moment – a wonderful, infinite moment – Leta was more than she was. Though she could not have pointed to exactly when in linear time she returned to herself, it must have only been a short while, for everyone’s armour had been re-donned and straightened, including hers. Sofi and Eir were bustling back from the tree-line, having brought down the perimeter under Sten’s watchful eye. Yasu’s mouth was open in mid-syllable, and Leta realised that even though she had not experienced it directly, she could recall exactly what their conversation up until now had been. ‘—ut when did you realise for sure?’ ‘It’s just as Sofi said,’ said Leta, ‘last night, you drank of that draakblud too. I’ll admit I hadn’t my full faculties at the time, but I would have noticed if you had suddenly sobered up and hopped off Sten’s lap, which you had until then so happily occupied—‘ ‘Hogged, you mean,’ pouted Sofi. She had arrived just ahead of Eir and Sten. ‘—and gone off to gather intelligence,’ concluded Leta. ‘But that’s why we watch each other, no? The Labyrinth can lie to us, but it can never know us as well as we can know each other. That’s our best – and only – defence, in the end.’ Yasu ran her fingers over the fresh talisman stuck to her neck. Its alchymical circle was a comfortingly pale blue. ‘We’re ready to roll, Letti—’ – Sofi’s eyes meekly darted down – ‘um, I mean, Commander. Leta. Commander Leta.’ Leta had never seen Sofi this docile. Had their joining knocked something loose? ‘Give me a moment to collect my thoughts before we descend, everyone,’ said Leta. ‘I’ll join you in a moment.’ The rest of the party filed off. All except Sten, who clanked up and slipped an arm around her waist. He smelled wonderfully of wood-smoke, sweat, and other women. ‘I know it’s not easy to step aside for the others, down here,’ – his gauntleted hand seized her rear – ‘so tonight, in camp, you’re getting me first.’ Leta pressed her head under his chin and affectionately rubbed it this way and that, like a cat hijacking its owner’s palm to pet itself. ‘Nope,’ she whispered back, ‘I’m going to be last; that’s an order, and since I’m your commander …’ ‘What? But you—’ ‘I … I think … I think I’ve started to like this.’ Sten’s blue eyes widened. ‘What does that mean?’ ‘I don’t know yet. I was afraid of it; perhaps I still am. I’m not sure what I’m becoming, you know?’ ‘Not to worry,’ – Sten’s voice was full of affection – ‘because I know what you are: a cocky bitch who’s going to find out what happens after we finish down there in the Mire and surface safely back in town.’ ‘Is that a threat or a promise?’ ‘Both.’ He kissed her then, not because she was suffering a Labyrinth-sickness, nor because she wanted him to – although she did – but because he loved her and wanted her to know it. Time slowed, not in the strange way that it had before, but in the ordinary, happy way in which it sometimes obliges lovers. ‘I can’t wait,’ Leta said. END
That was great, excellent set up and characterization.
>>3388 Thank you, Anon; you're very kind. I'm curious: were there any parts you found yourself disliking or otherwise finding weak?
>>3361 >Like the other anon on here whose path to submissiveness started from her man continuing to pound her while he was engaged in some other activity and not looking at her - rummaging for an item I think. It's surprisingly fun! >>3362 >I enjoy the kind of mindfuck that can result from reframing things so not wanting to be submissive or participate in some act is unreasonable, even if it's not by a normal person's standards. It's a strange kind of coercion that in some more extreme cases can hew a little too close to abuse for my own tastes, but I think I understand. The whole idea of the labyrinth being discussed here reframes sex as a survival imperative, after all - as long as you're in the danger zone, withdrawing consent could be tantamount to suicide and/or manslaughter.
Some really interesting stuff ITT even though I’m too much of a retard to contribute. Luv me sum vidyagames, luv me sum cuckqueaning, simple as.
I don't think theres much Cuckquean visual novel out there is it? I tried searching at f95 because thats the only place I knew of and can't find any new one. Used to be able to find few new before hmm o.o
>>3422 They're pretty rare. The only one I know of is Hoka no Onna no Ko to H o Shiteiru Ore o Mite Koufun Suru Kanojo.
>>3383 >>3384 >>3385 So, nobody save >>3388 had any thoughts on this, I suppose. Perhaps the ideas didn't come across or I was too long with it so enthusiasm died? Ah well, whatever the reason, it was good exercise and grist for the mill.
>>3431 I have thoughts, but each attempt at writing them has felt really hollow. First off, it's clear you put a lot of work into this and it definitely paid off! I found it easy to get into the characters' heads and the ambiance, and the usage of drams as a measure brought me back to caves of qud, a setting where this labyrinth wouldn't feel out of place. The idea of a commander class is a great way to integrate the cuckquean side of things with the mechanics of the corruption, the fact that you need someone who is "above the sexual fray" as you put it just makes sense in an intuitive way, and of course she would have to clean up after the joining is complete, as is right and just. This also fits really well because i self insert as backline supporty classes in EO games and a commander sounds like the kind of class that would have a strong backline buffer build so yay me! On it's face it seems to be more domquean than subquean, but I can see how it could still work for subquean with the right party characters and choices made in events. Honestly, this feels like the first chapter of a story series I would read on literotica rather than a post in a thread spawned by an offhand comment I made. That speaks to your ability as a writer, but it also gets me thinking about how one could really get this across in game (good job!). The scene plays out like something from a visual novel, and would make a good scripted event that could trigger when the right conditions are met. Where I start to scratch my head is around how this kind of thing would bear out normally, outside of these scripted encounters. How does it work when you're clearing the floor and you need to perform a joining, does it come with a description like this one, or are they short and sweet with a little animation/audio bit then back into the fray? Do they even need any animation or sound, could the text just say "and then they all fucked" and you fill in the gaps yourself, relying on the stage set by the strong, staged sex scenes to let the player's mind wander as they contemplate how the joining is playing out this time? Your point about tying Yasu up and carrying her out of the dungeon also makes me think of how that would play out in a real EO game, which would be you using a warp wire/ariadne thread to teleport back to base. Maybe you cant use your teleport item if someone is infected, a magical stopgap to keep the infected from infiltrating the town? Maybe you have to perform a sexmagic ritual to teleport back, which could led to an interesting tradeoff where you can use the last of your warding goo to teleport out, or you can hold out and try to hoof it back or make it to a warpzone that lets you return without needing to expend extra resources. If warping back takes more resources than a joining ritual, then you'd also have interesting gameplay moments where you find yourself trying to weigh if you should bail now, or purify and hope you can win the fights between you and the exit. EO games are highly planning oriented, so having mechanical incentive to plan ahead and not overcommit feels like it's right up the game's alley.
>>3434 Thank you for your kind words. It's a little embarrassing to admit that I put work into this sort of thing, but I did and it feels good to know others enjoyed it. >Honestly, this feels like the first chapter of a story series I would read on literotica rather than a post in a thread spawned by an offhand comment I made. I wanted to use this story as a way to convey certain things about the game world and its internal logic, but one has to work within the medium one has chosen at that moment, so I tried to make sure it also worked on its own as a story. I could have conveyed it as a series of mocked-up screenshots, for example, but that wouldn't have been able to include the world-building details I wanted to explore. Also, because I am weird, I find that coming at systems from other mediums helps me think through them. I'm presently sketching out battle and ambush flow by figuring out music that might fill the same roles as Initial Strike (battle theme) and A Sudden Gust of Wind Before Your Eyes (F.O.E. theme) did in the original E.O., but in a way that takes cues from the game state to really kick up the atmosphere. Alicesoft's composers seem especially good at this sort of thing. No idea if it'll come to anything, but it's solidified a couple of mechanical and atmosphere ideas. >Where I start to scratch my head is around how this kind of thing would bear out normally, outside of these scripted encounters. How does it work when you're clearing the floor and you need to perform a joining, does it come with a description like this one, or are they short and sweet with a little animation/audio bit then back into the fray? You'll have noticed this part: >‘Braced triple classical,’ Eir said. This was shorthand for the arrangement they would take; the lexicon was as familiar to any halfway experienced Labyrinth diver as their own name. ‘This has to be a river-join; I’ll be Source, Yasu’ll be Sink, Sofi our Switch, and Commander Leta our Supervisor. Let’s go.’ The two operating elements here are the arrangement (sexual position) and the roles (who goes where, into whom, and how) involved in that position. Eir selected the position she did here because it was necessary to quickly transfer in one direction from her to Yasu via Sten. In gameplay terms, a player selects these according to the needs and trade-offs that lead them into initiating a join in the first place. I presently imagine this interface presented as though it were a small, well-worn book with diagrams; each position is depicted as a sketched outline, into which the characters may be slotted. Different characters in different roles for different positions give the join different dynamics. Confirming the join fades things to black, and we are shown some bridging snippets of dialogue that sketch roughly how the join is going—just enough to evoke a mood and communicate how things are going, but not enough to interfere with the player's imagination or their gameplay flow. It'd be closer to >you fill in the gaps yourself, relying on the stage set by the strong, staged sex scenes to let the player's mind wander as they contemplate how the joining is playing out this time? than a fully generated scene, which would quickly become tedious. You'd also have noticed the reference to >the night-time Labyrinth’s swarming dark and the idea that surviving the night is necessary during deeper dives. Assuming that a party encamps for the night—though they might, if unwise or cornered by a terrible situation, choose to brave the dark—then a player needs to decide on how they are digging in (e.g. watch shifts, methods of repulsion, etc.) and what the party does during its downtime. It's a given that they'll fuck, of course, but whom, how, and in what order is something the player can decide if they so choose. Fucking in camp is a more relaxed affair than a field-join, and there will be various relationship and emotional consequences that have effects on other areas of gameplay. We get little snippets and stings that sketch what happens here as well, plus the possibility of triggering scripted events of various sizes and consequence. As a side point, a party can perform field-joins and encampment without the assistance of devices like the warding posts, but it's risky. Being ambushed with your pants literally down could be disastrous, but it's also possible that nothing bad could happen. Leta et al decided to play it safe at the cost of repulsion oil, but a player might decide differently. >Your point about tying Yasu up and carrying her out of the dungeon also makes me think of how that would play out in a real EO game, which would be you using a warp wire/ariadne thread to teleport back to base. Maybe you cant use your teleport item if someone is infected, a magical stopgap to keep the infected from infiltrating the town? A very good point, Anon. I didn't consider warp wire and its consequences. The nice thing about return items is that they allow a player to make risky one-way expeditions and ease the frustration of party wipes, but the bad thing about them is that they reduce the labyrinth's peril... >Maybe you have to perform a sexmagic ritual to teleport back, which could led to an interesting tradeoff where you can use the last of your warding goo to teleport out, or you can hold out and try to hoof it back or make it to a warpzone that lets you return without needing to expend extra resources. If warping back takes more resources than a joining ritual, then you'd also have interesting gameplay moments where you find yourself trying to weigh if you should bail now, or purify and hope you can win the fights between you and the exit. EO games are highly planning oriented, so having mechanical incentive to plan ahead and not overcommit feels like it's right up the game's alley. ...something that you neatly address here. I like these ideas. >The idea of a commander class is a great way to integrate the cuckquean side of things with the mechanics of the corruption, the fact that you need someone who is "above the sexual fray" as you put it just makes sense in an intuitive way, and of course she would have to clean up after the joining is complete, as is right and just. You probably noticed that Leta deciding to clean up had significant consequences; this ties into how the labyrinth's various gifts and curses develop in the long term, as well as what's actually going on that causes these to manifest in the first place. That said, the system of positions and roles means that one's commander might not necessarily be in the supervising role all the time, just that she's good at it. For example, had Leta been struck with some nasty condition or the other, she may well have found herself placed into the Sink position, watching Eir from underneath. Perhaps we might imagine some variation on the braced triple classical that has the sink facing the other way, which means Sten's cock would have been switched out of Eir's pussy and into Leta's mouth by a cheeky redhead who'd be only too happy to make the process teasing and perhaps just a little bit humiliating. Hypothetically. >This also fits really well because i self insert as backline supporty classes in EO games and a commander sounds like the kind of class that would have a strong backline buffer build so yay me! I presently distinguish class roles by their focus areas, which are the general time and place in which their skills are most useful. For example, the Commander is most useful in battle, then on the field (the dungeon-crawl part), and then in camp. The Artificer, by contrast, is most useful in camp, then on the field, then in battle. Each class/job further has primary and secondary roles in each of the three focus areas. For example, a Commander's primary role in battle is to advantageously coordinate and move the party (e.g. by rearranging turn order, setting up triggered action chains, preventing initiative loss, or initiating certain group-action moves), and her secondary role is to deal direct damage. A Phylacter's primary role in battle is to heal and cure the party, especially using items she's previously crafted in camp, and her secondary role is to inflict poison-like repeating damage on monsters, especially using items she's previously crafted in camp. A player might thus choose to play a Commander as a frontline damage-and-dance character, or as a backline direct-and-distract character. The same principle holds on the field and in camp, where each character's skill-sets can be used to different ends. >On it's face it seems to be more domquean than subquean, but I can see how it could still work for subquean with the right party characters and choices made in events. I wrote Leta in a certain way because she was a character in a story and had to be written some way, but the general principle would be to allow a player enough mental freedom to throw whatever light onto the game's events suits them the best. Out of interest, Anon, how would you have had things in the story above unfold differently? I'd like to think I have a decent grasp on other shades of cuckqueaning, but the truth is that I only truly know my own style. Being able to understand the way someone else colors the same situation would be tremendously helpful. >the usage of drams as a measure brought me back to caves of qud I looked up Caves of Qud; the dram link is that it uses drinking water as currency, right? Very Dune-like.
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>>3435 > It's a little embarrassing to admit that I put work into this sort of thing I know the feeling, it's always difficult to put ones work out there for scrutiny and I at least am definitely glad you did. >I find that coming at systems from other mediums helps me think through them I never thought about it this way before, but that makes sense actually. It's kind of like trying to step back and get more perspective on the material in question. I'll keep this in mind next time I try to run a TTRPG campaign, seems like it would help flesh things out and get past roadblocks. >than a fully generated scene, which would quickly become tedious. That makes sense. CoC has really specific scenes written for when you defeat monsters and while that is neat the first time, it gets old fast. That particular game also has the problem where if you do something enough those scenes can change, but if you stopped reading the scene for that monster hours ago then you can easily miss them. Short and sweet avoids this. >the idea that surviving the night is necessary during deeper dives. In the EO games I've played, camping is only done to heal you and restore TP. This works because healing, and especially TP restore effects, is limited. But, if you're strong enough, you can spend days in the dungeon without sleeping at all. That felt kinda weird to me, but it also avoids having extra mechanics like exhaustion or hunger meters or other things that would force a rest, it's just a combat consideration. Using a danger mechanic where adventuring at night is of greater risk would add another layer of combat consideration that results in you sleeping at night for core gameplay reasons without adding an extra system like exhaustion. At the same time this means you’ll probably regularly rest at night, so it also leads to the same true to life feeling a survival style sleep need would provide. >As a side point, a party can perform field-joins and encampment without the assistance of devices like the warding posts, but it's risky This could be another party construction moment. If you plan to do only risky joins, you can include another combat class in the party instead of a camp class. For short delves this could speed things up and might be a neat way to cheese bosses. The viability of this would obviously be based on just how risky it is to join without protection, too far in either direction shuts down choices but there's a Goldilocks zone where it's dangerous enough to be a real risk but not so dangerous to make it never be worth it. Can you tell I like tradeoffs? Alternately, it could just be really bad all the time and a punishment for poor resource management. That probably would work better for the game and would avoid people sidestepping the mechanic by not having an artificer at all. >The same principle holds on the field and in camp, where each character's skill-sets can be used to different ends. This whole chunk just sounds like really solid game design, liking all of these ideas, gold star for you anon. >Out of interest, Anon, how would you have had things in the story above unfold differently? Well any rewrite carried out by me would be far worse, I guess the kind of thing I had in mine would be “what if” scenarios where the supporting cast acts differently. In this story, the commander hesitates slightly, she doesn’t want to force anything to happen, she wants to be a benevolent ruler. When she does get around to commanding, everyone falls in line and she is quite clearly in charge. But what if instead of Leta realizing there’s no time for consensus, she moves ahead trying to reach it? They dither a while, and then Eir breaks ranks, says there is no time for this when lives are on the line. She starts giving orders, or maybe she just comes to the decision that the joining is happening, here and now, and tells Leta to start doing her damn job. Leta could retreat inward from this, let the other women take control, and even if she’s still the source for the joining it would be another woman who is making this happen. I think mechanically this would work best if there was a character flagged as dominant and smug, and if she’s in the party then the event plays out in a way where she takes charge and starts teasing Leta about the fact that they’re pleasing her man and she’s clearly enjoying it. Even if it was meant as an empty rib, just banter with no evidence, once this other character picks up on the fact that her blind and joking assessment is spot on she’ll get bolder. By gating the event behind a certain character you require the player to take positive action to get to that route. Alternately, if it’s still the same character, you could have the even start to go down the subpath but let the player chose if Leta reasserts herself or submits, and that might even make sense if you have a smugdom vixen character since it allows a player to put the brakes on events leading them down paths they aren’t interested in. Where things go from here I’m unsure, the most drastic thing would be a class switch for the commander, or maybe they retain their class but everyone knows she’s just a figurehead, reduced to a role of moral support with limited commanding power. Mechanics should reflect story, so maybe their abilities are recontextualized to make it clear that they’ve moved from supporting through leading to instead supporting submissively. Maybe that could even take sexual form, where a fallen commander could have abilities to sexually service the other party members out of combat for buffs. It would be great if an event on the sub path has the commander eventually tied up and watching the others enjoy her man while she’s in chasity, though that would likely be better suited for more relaxed intercourse than for the lifesaving sexmagic ritual. > I looked up Caves of Qud; the dram link is that it uses drinking water as currency, right? It does have water currency, yep. Its essentially a barter only economy, but with a universally desired third good in the form of water. So most people don’t get paid in water, and probably wouldn’t even have much water on hand, they would just use it to live or occasionally balance out a trade. I don’t play it much anymore, but I thought it did a good job of setting a weird, alien atmosphere and has fun powers to play with so I enjoyed my time with it. Now whenever I hear about drams I can't help but have flashbacks to being killed by sentient banana trees while out for a stroll. And that wild and wacky world full of strange things would definitely have at least one cuckquean encouraging sex labyrinth somewhere.
>>3437 >it's always difficult to put ones work out there for scrutiny I'm used to putting stuff up—a real (You)-whore, me—but it was more the absurdity of putting an imageboard post through proper cycles of revision, editing, and proofing that struck me as a little too much. But I also think that if something's worth doing then it's worth over-doing. >next time I try to run a TTRPG campaign That's tabletop, right? Which TTRPG did you previously run, if you don't mind my asking? I think such play lays down some seriously thick storytelling and game system chops, especially if you're the one running things, since you're running everything out of your head rather than on silicon. Dig back through enough non-sport gaming tradition and one always seems to end up at a table of some kind. I think that's important. >if you do something enough those scenes can change, but if you stopped reading the scene for that monster hours ago then you can easily miss them I've never played CoC; what sorts of things change in these post-battle scenes, and on what basis do they change? >In the EO games I've played, camping is only done to heal you and restore TP. This works because healing, and especially TP restore effects, is limited. Well spotted. I'd like to avoid the "mana as root resource" pattern, where the time you're able to spend in the field is ultimately limited by the mana/TP/whatever pool that powers your healing spells. I find that tends to encourage designs that treat the player's time as something they can consume freely, which I think is a touch disrespectful. That said, it's such a fundamental thing that I suspect one can only elaborate on it rather than eliminate it. Related is the "walk three steps and sleep" pattern, where a rest mechanic means you end up progressing through somewhere at a stutter-step because resting is the only way to replenish the resources that allow you to survive. It does work, but ends up quickly feeling absurd. Some games that do this disincentivize too-frequent resting by e.g. gating it exclusively behind items or including ambushes, but if the only way for a player to usefully replenish is to rest then they'll come to resent the latter as being punished for doing the only thing they can. As you point out, stamina or hunger or other such things tend to get kludged into the cracks as a compromise, but often end up flapping awkwardly against the player's face every so often instead of forming part of a groove that play clicks into. >Using a danger mechanic where adventuring at night is of greater risk would add another layer of combat consideration that results in you sleeping at night for core gameplay reasons without adding an extra system like exhaustion. At the same time this means you’ll probably regularly rest at night, so it also leads to the same true to life feeling a survival style sleep need would provide. Another thing I like about using a night/day mechanic is that it adds atmosphere as well as places to slip in new gameplay moments. Imagine that as the sun sets, the Labyrinth is gradually bathed in orange, then purple, and the closer to sunset you get the more a sinister undertone creeps into the music, maybe some subtle use of dark synth pads underneath... until the paths are plunged into black, visibility is reduced to a single tile, and the soundtrack fades down to night sounds with an unsettling swell of slow, ambient, growling, dissonant strings with faint anti-melodies. A player in the earlier stages of the game would interpret this as the game making a threat. I'd want them to feel insecure and vulnerable, even hunted. The party stop being explorers evenly matched against the labyrinth and start being prey. FOE-like monsters would no longer be visible on the map and begin to work in new ways, reducing the player's ability to control their own situation. Back this up by making night monsters different in kind rather than only in degree: An inexperienced party might not even have the skills or discipline to properly track or effectively fight back against a night hunter-FOE, leaving them to be picked off by something they can't properly see but maybe—just maybe—can still flee from, if they're lucky. However, a more experienced party (and player) who can survive the deeper layers in daylight might find themselves able to confront the shallower layers at night. This would feel great for the player—nothing quite like being able to finally turn the tables on something terrifying— but also put a new spin on an old environment. Initially the party might be able to best a few ordinary night monsters, but running into a night hunter-FOE would still be run-or-die. Eventually the party might be able to defeat and loot the shallower night hunter-FOEs, provided they prepare well, which means they stand the chance of marching through the shallower layers without needing to stop and encamp. In this way the game naturally allows the player to spend more time in their progression sweet spot rather than forcing them to waste time repeatedly executing whatever strategy they've settled on to traverse the in-between layers. >This could be another party construction moment. If you plan to do only risky joins, you can include another combat class in the party instead of a camp class. For short delves this could speed things up and might be a neat way to cheese bosses. I'm thinking the fixed-character, multi-job system might be the way to go here. Initially a player would only have access to each party member's base job, which would limit them to choosing between a few good strategies—great for limiting the learning curve. But once we can assume the player has a better grasp on things, then we make it so that each party member can switch between one or two other jobs in town to allow this kind of party composition tradeoff. (That each job has its own outfit is a given, of course.) >Alternately, it could just be really bad all the time and a punishment for poor resource management. That probably would work better for the game and would avoid people sidestepping the mechanic by not having an artificer at all. I think whether that is the way to go would be determined by the designer's ability to make a game system that holds up well against different player strategies, which is... well, it's necessary if one's making a game at all, but it's also hard. Solvable games aren't much fun. >Leta could retreat inward from this, let the other women take control, and even if she’s still the source for the joining it would be another woman who is making this happen. See, this is why I asked! I can sort of grasp at this style of things but it's not where I live, so having you lay it out for me like this is very helpful. I think I understand a little better what you meant by "domquean" and "subquean" now. Also, "smugdom". What a term of art! >the most drastic thing would be a class switch for the commander, or maybe they retain their class but everyone knows she’s just a figurehead, reduced to a role of moral support with limited commanding power >maybe their abilities are recontextualized to make it clear that they’ve moved from supporting through leading to instead supporting submissively Perhaps locking off a skill or two and opening up another skill or two might be enough to change the class's feel. I do like the idea of a "fallen commander" specialism; window-dressing can make a big difference in how a player experiences things. The best part about it is that it can be communicated without having to provide alternative events for many things if we assume that the commander's fallen status is kept only within her party, a kind of dirty little secret. For example, adding a cute little leather choker with a single, discreet O-ring to the commander's portrait and town sprite gives us something which those outside the party wouldn't pay much mind to but which has clear and definite meaning to those inside it: She's only our commander when it suits us, and when not? She's our pet. >Maybe that could even take sexual form, where a fallen commander could have abilities to sexually service the other party members out of combat for buffs. Fallen commander as part sex toy, part cleanup rag? Lots of ways you can spin this dynamic too, maybe one for each of the female party members. One's actively teasing and smugdom about it, another's rough and forceful, another's very matter-of-fact and using, while yet another's caring, sweet and polite, but still undoubtedly above. Imagine a morning scene: Everyone's breaking camp, buckling on armor, getting ready for the day, and there's one of the party's girls with a fist full of their commander's hair and a pussy full of their commander's tongue, matter-of-factly getting her morning buff before she passes the fallen commander along to the next girl. The part I find myself wondering about in this dynamic is how the relationship between the fallen commander and the anchor would play out. Obviously the fallen commander loses all say in when and how the other women fuck her husband(?) but how does the relationship between commander and anchor change? This is very important, because playing it in certain ways turns the story from cuckqueaning into more... bisexual cuckoldry? I guess what I'm saying is that if the fallen commander spends a significant chunk of time busy between the other girls' legs then it feels almost more like they've stolen her from him, you know? I hope you don't mind my asking about this more; it's the part I think I understand the least well. >It would be great if an event on the sub path has the commander eventually tied up and watching the others enjoy her man while she’s in chasity, though that would likely be better suited for more relaxed intercourse than for the lifesaving sexmagic ritual. What a surprising and unpredictable detail; I would never have expected you to include being tied up an in chastity, Anon. But this does lead to an interesting consequence, given the need for joining: Each member of the party would need to have a copy of their commander's belt key, except of course the commander herself. >most people don’t get paid in water, and probably wouldn’t even have much water on hand, they would just use it to live or occasionally balance out a trade. I did wonder how a trade system with such a heavy, bulky currency would work. >whenever I hear about drams I can't help but have flashbacks to being killed by sentient banana trees while out for a stroll Anon, what.
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>>3439 >the absurdity of putting an imageboard post through proper cycles of revision, editing, and proofing that struck me as a little too much. Almost every time I've posted in this thread I write out my response in a separate program like word or whatever because I know I'm going to need to write it out and then edit it to have it make any semblance of sense. You're just taking that strategy to its logical conclusion. Makes sense to me >Which TTRPG did you previously run I've run two D&D campaigns and a vampire: the masquerade campaign. All of them were homebrew campaigns I made from scratch, but the D&D campaigns were set in Skyrim, so I was pulling on a lot of existing lore there so I was more free to improv and tell new stories riffing on the commonly understood source material. There were only a few times where my vision of elder scrolls differed with players, but that could also potentially mire such a campaign. I love the freedom in games like these, but after group conflict shut down two of those three campaigns I’ve been left quite jaded now so I don’t know if I’ll actually do it again. Though if I do, I’m better armed for it. >what sorts of things change in these post-battle scenes, and on what basis do they change? It has been a minute since I played, but some of the stuff is obvious, like if your sex bits change or you grow a new body part (like becoming a centaur or a naga) then that can trigger a different version of the scene than you saw before. Like if you didn’t have a dick and now do, the scene is going to mention your member now when it didn’t before. The game also makes use of “corruption”, so some scenes have different descriptions/events based on your corruption level with more corruption leading to you acting more depraved. For persistent NPCs, their sex scenes can change slowly over time. For instance, there's a lizard girl whose anal sex scene changes as you have anal with her more and she gets more into it, a centaur who gets more dominant the more he tops you, and a shark girl who gets more dominant if she bests you in combat and vice versa. I like the idea of gradual change, but I have a pretty distinct memory of having gotten a scene with a character once, then the same scene the next time I took the same action with them so I assumed that was just the only outcome. As I continued taking the action (I was trying to increase their affection for me) I was just scrolling past it when I noticed a scrap of text I hadn't seen before. I re read the scene and found that while the first paragraph as the same following ones were now different and the scene was going differently than it had previously. I have no idea when that happened, since I hadn't been paying super close attention to the text, so my only guess is the game was changing the event as the character and I grew closer to eachother, but since it had spit out the exact same text 2-3 times and the new text looked superficially similar I was conditioned to not read it and therefore almost missed that change. >I'd like to avoid the "mana as root resource" pattern, That said, it's such a fundamental thing that I suspect one can only elaborate on it rather than eliminate it. I always liked the way it was implemented in the EO games. You can heal with spells (spending mana), health restore items, the tent item that lets you camp in the field, or by returning to town and resting at an inn. The obvious choice is to heal with spells until you re out of mana, then return to town to get your spell juice back. This also makes sense since survival early on is based heavily on skill you, you need to spend your TP to kill enemies that are at your level without taking a ton of damage. Later on, you can supplement with healing items, but those cost money and take up inventory space that could have been used for loot, so you’re essentially trading the resources you got through grind for the ability to extend your dungeon stay by adding to your resource pool you can draw from. Tents act as a buffed form that heal way more and even restore TP, but they can’t be used in combat. All this winds up working out because EO makes heavy use of shortcuts, warp wires, and incremental progress. That first time through you run out of resources a quarter of the way through the floor, and you have to bail but you got more money and xp. If you have a warp wire, it’s easy to just push as hard as you possibly can, then warp out once you’re fully out of mana. When you come back, you can get further with your new levels/gear/good map that helps you avoid dead ends. You get even more money, maybe you use a tent you bought to help you get to the end of the floor, where you find that there’s a hidden shortcut that will allow you to skip ahead next time you come back to the dungeon. All this links up with the desire to explore and map the whole floor, because the mapping is kind of its own reward. I have found the stairs to the next level several times, only to mark it on my map and keep looking around the floor I’m on right now so I can finish my map or get more exp or fill my inventory with monster loot. The games might be objectively grindy, and yes I have lost 45+ minutes of progress because I pushed too hard and died because I made a mistake in my planning/ran out of resources/that stupid monkey FOE just popped out of nowhere how was I supposed to know it was going to do that and you can only run from combat by walking backwards so if there just happens to be another foe behind you and you cant kill this one then you are dead. All this is to say I hear you, but with the right supporting systems mana can make a solid limiting resource, and like you mentioned mana can be so core that it is difficult to eliminate entirely. I don’t know if I have suggestions for improving/modifying a mana system, other than a general statement that you have to think about how mana interacts with everything else in the game since it’s never going to exist in isolation. >Related is the "walk three steps and sleep" pattern, where a rest mechanic means you end up progressing through somewhere at a stutter-step because resting is the only way to replenish the resources that allow you to survive. Ok, totally different game, but elder scroll daggerfall is a game where you can only heal and regenerate your mana by resting. In that game I think it works because it’s part of the game’s difficulty and progression curve (and also I just like those kinds of immersive sim games, that helps for sure). Most every quest you receive is on a time limit of some kind, it may be very generous like a month, but it’s still there. Early on your character is low in skill, they fail their spell casts, they get hit often, they struggle to hit enemies, etc. When you are new to the game you may make bad choices which lead to you wasting health/mana and requiring you to rest more, potentially failing your quests if you make enough mistakes or your character isn’t prepared for dungeon delves. But with use your skills go up, and eventually you can cast that healing spell with no fail chance, you hit enemies more often, you are less likely to be hit yourself, and you even have a skill that increases the health you heal by resting. All this means that as you progress in the game, you need to rest less and when you do you spend less time doing so. I definitely smashed that rest button a lot in daggerfall, but after playing a while I found myself getting into the dungeons way more than skyrim/oblivion, since I the later games any mistake I made that didn’t result in instant death would just go away with time as the resources I spent all passively regenerated. It’s not for everyone, but I find these systems that treat your resources as something that can be depleted interesting to play around. >Another thing I like about using a night/day mechanic is that it adds atmosphere as well as places to slip in new gameplay moments Exactly! And the ability to come back to the top layers at night and not get destroyed would definitely be fun and a good way to show they character they progressed. EO kinda already does this with FOEs, who are wildly more powerful upon first encounter, but once you have beaten a boss for a stratum you can come back and stand a chance to beat the early FOEs. This doesn't just feel great, but it’s also a good way to prepare for the next stratum by using drops from the FOEs to unlock some better gear. >I'm thinking the fixed-character, multi-job system might be the way to go here I think it would probably be easier to write than the alterntives, and it could make for a more consistent experience as a player. Plus, that means we get to play with outfits! Yay outfits! >Perhaps locking off a skill or two and opening up another skill or two might be enough to change the class's feel Honestly, I think I’d be satisfied with just changing skill names/descriptions even if the effects are still the same. Having access to slightly different skills could be neat, but as you say window dressing goes a long way. I’d also want to avoid a final fantasy 4 situation, spoilers for a 30 year old game but the main character has a class switch halfway through from dark knight to paladin, and not only does this set you back to a really low level, it also turns you from a dps monster to a mixed damage/support role and everyone knows multiclassing makes you suck at the things you’re trying to do. This was very jarring to little baby Anon playing this on her GBA and while I got over it and beat the game, it still wasn’t a good feel. >For example, adding a cute little leather choker with a single, discreet O-ring to the commander's portrait and town sprite Why stop here anon? Let’s get a whole new outfit in there, because why not? Outfitsssss >The part I find myself wondering about in this dynamic is how the relationship between the fallen commander and the anchor would play out This is a really good point to bring up. A lot of the characterization going on in the scene you wrote was for the girls, so they felt like the easiest ones to focus on. I’m also a little bit ashamed to admit that I didn’t even think that the guy would have a problem with his GF being used by other girls because they’re just that, girls. I’ve gotten it in my head that men are not threatened by their women getting down and dirty with other girls, they want to watch yea but it’s only really a problem if their GF is going to become a lesbian and break up with them. Even then, guys seem to think they can just dick a lesbian straight so I don’t even know how threatening they think that possible outcome actually is. Now that my attention has been brought to that assumption it seems obvious that not all guys would be like that, so we would need to take positive action in the writing to make it clear this guy is ok with the situation. I don’t think it would be very hard to establish that, though. One way would be that the anchor, noticing that his wife is definitely aroused by being teased/cucked, could help her down her path. Maybe after some gentle ribbing during a joining, he brings it up during/after their own lovemaking at the inn. He leans in and whispers into her ear that he noticed she likes it when the other girls take charge, maybe asks how she would feel if it was one of them underneath him and she was relegated to watching, getting to clean up if she’s lucky. Maybe he could nudge her into a submissive role, suggesting that she start servicing the other girls when they ask, or he could ask them to start being more dominant with her. It would all have to come from a place of love, he loves her and he sees that she likes this and he’s going to help her realize her place is on her back underneath another woman watching her take his dick. I started this paragraph from an academic perspective and now I’m over here breathing heavily and in need of a cool shower, thanks for that anon. It would also help to have some player choice moments where if you embrace/reject serving the other girls directly could impact what your husband is into and what events occur. I don’t want to squick out the gals who aren’t into touching the vixen. >What a surprising and unpredictable detail; I would never have expected you to include being tied up an in chastity, Anon Wait wait wait, is this some kind of dry humor that I’m too socially inept to pick up on? Yea, maybe I don’t need to bring it up as often, I have said it a couple times above afterall. This is why I shouldn’t ever actually make a game because the local paper would wind up having to print “Local anon found severely dehydrated after creating H game that contains every one of her fetishes and masturbating to the exclusion of sleep, food, or drink.” Ok, maybe that’s a bit long for a physical paper headline, but still. I also really like that keyholder idea. Can we also get the keys enchanted so they shock her if she tries to steal them? Or maybe the belt is magic and doesn’t even need a key? Ok yea, really need that cold shower now before my nose starts bleeding. >Anon, what. It’s a weird game anon! Pic related. Also, random, but kudos to BO (I presume) for upping the character limit. I'd never be able to get this all in one post otherwise and it makes the logistics so much easier
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>>3443 >Or maybe the belt is magic and doesn’t even need a key? :^)
>>3443 >I've run two D&D campaigns and a vampire: the masquerade campaign. All of them were homebrew campaigns I made from scratch Ooh, that's cool! Well, I mean, not cool cool, but fuck cool cool because I think TTRPGs are proper cool. How upsetting that most of your groups didn't work out, though. Silicon does have one important advantage, I suppose: No drama. Bad people-experiences can really sour a hobby. I guess when it comes down to it, TTRPGs are such close-range, intense interactions that even small bits of interpersonal friction would be amplified over the hours spent at the table. I've visited /tg/ a few times, and if it's any consolation they make it seem that bad or just downright weird group experiences are pretty common. Skyrim in D&D seems straightforward, but how do you homebrew vampires? Put them in another world and use the same vampire rules? >if your sex bits change or you grow a new body part (like becoming a centaur or a naga) >lizard girl whose anal sex scene changes >a centaur who gets more dominant the more he tops you >a shark girl who gets more dominant if she bests you in combat Wow. CoC clearly had a lot going on; I feel like a prude in comparison. Sure, "corruption" is right there in the name, but I wouldn't have thought to give the option to grow centaur bits. Your main point is very well taken, in any case. There's a point where making a player re-read and re-read just becomes a pretty cheeky thing for a game maker to do. I personally think going on long spiels is best kept to non-interactive stories, anyway; game writing is its own discipline. >You can heal with spells (spending mana), health restore items, the tent item that lets you camp in the field, or by returning to town and resting at an inn. In that respect, it was the same as many other JRPGs including the earlier Final Fantasies. (I recall FFVI only allowed you to use tents at save points, though.) I'm racking my brains trying to think of alternative fundamental systems I've seen... Baldur's Gate and its CRPG brethren used the AD&D system of spell slot memorisation, but that just lead straight into the resting stutter-step pattern. Regenerating health/red-vignette systems only apply to action games, so they're not applicable here. The more I think about it, the more I realise how few fundamental systems there are! One novel system comes to mind: Resonance of Fate/End of Eternity used a really cool-feeling system that made damage and healing a matter of strategy and play as well as resources in a way I've never seen anywhere else. RoF/EoE comprised an overworld with random encounters (and a hex-clearing puzzle game, but that's not relevant here), dungeons with defined paths, and semi-turn-based free-roam 3D battlefields where movement and action consumed a character's action meter. All damage was either "scratch" or normal, with "scratch" being fast-building but temporary. An enemy health meter could be 100% full of scratch but it'd have no effect until you dealt any amount of real damage, at which point all scratch instantly converted to real damage. You'd spray as many opponents (or their separate parts) as you could with a submachine gun-wielding scratch damage character before trying to manoeuvre in your pistol-wielding real characters in such a way that they could get enough shots off at those same opponents and convert the scratch damage to real damage, all while trying to position them for special group moves without exposing them to peril. The nice detail was that your party was just so damn cool in their stylish, vaguely interbellum clothing(!!!), flipping and jumping around the battlefield with pistols and submachine guns akimbo, that any damage they took counted as scratch damage, easily shrugged off at the end of the fight... as long as you had a stock of the special action points that fuelled their acrobatic movement. If the scratch damage they took overflowed their total stock of remaining HP, no problem: It'd just consume a special action point from the shared pool. Except, uh-oh, if you ran out of special action points then suddenly you weren't so cool any more! The music changed to this panicky variation on the rock battle music, your characters could only stumble around the battlefield instead of flipping everywhere, and were subject to the same damage rules as everyone else. A badly-positioned, vulnerable character would find their HP chipped away quickly, which in turn made them more vulnerable to scratch overflow, since there was less to overflow from in the first place. You could equip characters with healing items—doing so took up an alternate weapon slot—that would heal scratch damage in combat, but healing real HP damage in the field was nearly impossible unless you fought your way to rest areas on the dungeon overmap. At harder levels, you'd find yourself having to constantly balance the rewards of aggressive, point-consuming jump-and-flip play that took your characters far from each other so they'd have the maximum time to line up shots during the big group manoeuvres, and defensive positioning that kept them in cover, close enough to each other to provide scratch healing and buffs, but vulnerable to being flanked and chipped away at. I never finished that game—too long, too slow, too much grind—but it left a big impression in design, storytelling, and aesthetic terms. It was wild; best game I'd never recommend to anybody. >All this winds up working out because EO makes heavy use of shortcuts, warp wires, and incremental progress. That first time through you run out of resources a quarter of the way through the floor, and you have to bail but you got more money and xp. If you have a warp wire, it’s easy to just push as hard as you possibly can, then warp out once you’re fully out of mana. When you come back, you can get further with your new levels/gear/good map that helps you avoid dead ends. You get even more money, maybe you use a tent you bought to help you get to the end of the floor, where you find that there’s a hidden shortcut that will allow you to skip ahead next time you come back to the dungeon. All this links up with the desire to explore and map the whole floor, because the mapping is kind of its own reward. >All this is to say I hear you, but with the right supporting systems mana can make a solid limiting resource, and like you mentioned mana can be so core that it is difficult to eliminate entirely. I don’t know if I have suggestions for improving/modifying a mana system, other than a general statement that you have to think about how mana interacts with everything else in the game since it’s never going to exist in isolation. That's a very persuasive and passionate defence of mana, Anon, together with a very well-stated summary of that exploratory tension that gives EO its special flavor. Bravo: You've convinced me that the classic potion-cura-ether-tent system is actually pretty good. I think that your earlier suggestion of restricting escape item use together with the long-burn effects of the labyrinth are two legs that might give that system enough difference to feel fresh. The reason I was down on mana and healing as the fundamental limiter is because I'm trying to grope at a system where a player questions whether they should still be in the labyrinth at all, if that makes sense. I call adventuring in the labyrinth "diving" for a reason: It connotes, to me, being somewhere where you should not be, where you must be pay attention and compare the unfolding reality with your original plan. Mana-as-limiter felt a little like mana-as-clock, where you do the same things until your TP counts down (unless sudden monkey... ah, now I understand how FOEs slot into the EO design). That can fall into a grind-groove, you know? I want the player's back to tingle as they enter the labyrinth each time, where they feel a little cold frisson. But you're right that the classics have much room to do this, and I shouldn't dismiss them without very good reason because they're classics for a reason. >All this means that as you progress in the game, you need to rest less and when you do you spend less time doing so. That is interesting! When I outlined the stutter-step problem I was thinking of CRPGs like Baldur's Gate, where the stutter-step happened more often the higher level and further through the game you got. I'm not familiar with how this system feels to play, but you've given me food for thought. >This was very jarring to little baby Anon playing this on her GBA and while I got over it and beat the game, it still wasn’t a good feel. The storyteller in me wholeheartedly approves of fucking about with the player's abilities according to the experience you're trying to create. (The much-maligned solo endgame section in FFXV—which I fucking loved—where you found yourself weakened and desperate comes to mind. It was too hard a slap for many, I think, and so it has apparently been patched out.) However, a lot of the time it also offends the player and designer in me: Fuck you, how dare you clumsily trade my/the players' time and enjoyment for your petty little plotting! The other very good reason for not screwing about too much with a fallen commander's mechanical parts is simpler: I don't think I'm clever enough to pull it off. >Let’s get a whole new outfit in there, because why not? Outfitsssss It was actually a production instinct: Why spend time/resources on an entirely new set of art assets that players who don't take that path will never see? This is also why I referred to a "town sprite": Keeping one non-adventuring outfit while you're in town frees up effort to make new expressions, poses, standardise CGs, etc. But, you do make a compelling point: Outfits. >I’m also a little bit ashamed to admit that I didn’t even think that the guy would have a problem with his GF being used by other girls because they’re just that, girls. I’ve gotten it in my head that men are not threatened by their women getting down and dirty with other girls, they want to watch yea but it’s only really a problem if their GF is going to become a lesbian and break up with them. Even then, guys seem to think they can just dick a lesbian straight so I don’t even know how threatening they think that possible outcome actually is. I'll join you in the shame box, because I actually wasn't advocating on the guy's behalf either, but the 'quean's. I can see how the hastily-chosen "bisexual cuckoldry" phrasing gave that impression though. The guy being okay with his GF spending time between the vixens' legs is more or less a matter of narrative convenience, as you point out, and he's presumably topping those same vixens anyway so it's hard to see them as threatening. No, what I was saying had to do with the 'quean's perspective of her bond with her man. It sounded like the vixens monopolise the 'quean's sexual attention, more or less, turning her into a belted lickpuppy. So, okay, if he's dicking them and she's licking them then what's that leave for our happy couple? A surface reading makes it sound like their sexual bond has been severed, which in a sex-heavy story like this immediately calls into question the matter of their emotional bond. Has she been sidelined, or is she still getting headpats from her man while she cleans him up between trysts? What does she think of not having sex with him, what does she think of sexually servicing the vixens? Even if he's not threatened by her having sexual contact with other girls, how does she square that particular circle? Cuckqueaning, to me, is a fundamentally unequal relationship. That's part of its appeal, and what distinguishes it from "hall passes", "open relationships", poly-pod cuddle-puddle mutant pools, and all the other "arrangements" that imply an invisible tit-for-tat ledger. He sleeps around and I do not; the latter part of that sentence is as important as the former. Whether I'm holding other girls open, teasingly rubbing him against other girls, watching from below as he slides into other girls, sucking other girls off him, or drinking him out of other girls it's all about my bond with him, you see? Him fucking them is an expression of our love. But directly serving the vixens, independent of his involvement—that would feel very different. Do you see what I mean? >he loves her and he sees that she likes this and he’s going to help her realize her place is on her back underneath another woman watching her take his dick. I started this paragraph from an academic perspective and now I’m over here breathing heavily and in need of a cool shower, thanks for that anon. Indeed; whatever the details, we can all agree that being put in one's place is fucking hot—especially when one's place affords one front-row seats to extramarital penetration and a good chance of being dripped on. >I don’t want to squick out the gals who aren’t into touching the vixen. For sure. But I hope I've been able to explain that for some it's not just about touching the vixen or not, but the context in which that touching occurs. >“Local anon found severely dehydrated after creating H game that contains every one of her fetishes and masturbating to the exclusion of sleep, food, or drink.” Ok, maybe that’s a bit long for a physical paper headline, but still. LOCAL LASS LIVES THROUGH MASTURBATORY MARATHON Fetish Fixation Slipped Into Schlicking Without Sleep or Sustenance, Say Specialists >Can we also get the keys enchanted so they shock her if she tries to steal them? Or maybe the belt is magic and doesn’t even need a key? Ok yea, really need that cold shower now before my nose starts bleeding. Nice detail! Actually, that part about the keyless belt reminded me of the old Catgirl Revolution greentext posted on the old board where the main character locked the misbehaving catgirl into a belt furnished with sci-fi nanometal that locked and unlocked with a gestural passcode. (She let the catgirl stew in her belt for a while, then worked together with her husband to lezdom the catgirl back into her proper place. Story's elements might be partly up your alley, now that I think of it, though the PoV is in the wrong place. I tried to attach text files to this post but it's apparently not allowed.) >Pic related. >belonging to the trees faction >the trees faction >the trees >faction Anon, WHAT ???? WHAT >>3447 Anon, no fair. I was drinking!
>>3443 >kudos to BO (I presume) for upping the character limit The globals raised the limit a little while ago after spotting a few posters having to break things up. /cuckquean/ just inherited the setting.
>>3449 I wrote up this entire reply but me, being an idiot, accidentally closed it without saving it. I cried a little. I don’t think this version is as good as what I wrote at first so I hope it all still makes sense. >Bad people-experiences can really sour a hobby. I guess when it comes down to it, TTRPGs are such close-range, intense interactions that even small bits of interpersonal friction would be amplified over the hours spent at the table. I struggle because I do not handle interpersonal conflict well at all, it makes me just shut down. As the GM part of your job is arbitrating disputes and I’m just not cut out for that. I still got back and tweak story notes or write stat blocks for characters in those campaigns and that alone is fun, but I don’t know if it have the guts to be in charge anymore. >how do you homebrew vampires? It was a steampunk vampires campaign set in 19th century Prussia. I rewrote some mechanics to make more sense for the new setting, made some neat gadgets, and put together a story where an entrenched and decadent vampire nobility came into conflict with a rising underclass of thin blooded peasant vampires armed with tesla cannons. Yes, I am aware that I am very cringe. >CoC clearly had a lot going on It was my first lewd game if I recall correctly. I had a lot of fun with it, there’s a good amount of content, but it was always a game written by committee as even when it was in development there wasn’t one consistent writer for characters so some parts are hit or miss but I’m glad I experienced it. That has only increased as modders have taken over expanding the content. Never beat it though, and I’m unsure if I ever will since. >One novel system comes to mind: Resonance of Fate/End of Eternity This sounds so interesting and I will be disregarding your lack of recommendation and play it. Thanks for the non-recommendation anon! >The reason I was down on mana and healing as the fundamental limiter is because I'm trying to grope at a system where a player questions whether they should still be in the labyrinth at all I think it’s good to challenge conventions and thing about ways that you can push your design forward. I think that mana works well for EO as I think resource management is a core part of EO, and mana is another resource to manage. The main point I wanted to get across was just that systems all connect to each other, so while mana by itself might not feel interesting but if it interacts well with the rest of the game that can make it more interesting. I think as long as you’re adding mechanics that are synergistic instead of parasitic, you’re on the road to making a good game. Another potential strong point of timeworn systems is that if your players have game literacy then they don’t need to spend learning curve time figuring those systems out and can focus on the other things that make your game great. It wouldn’t be a bad thing to come up with a novel mana replacement, but if that new system plus the other mechanics start to overwhelm players then that’s no fun. I also wonder if mana/healing needs to be the fundamental limiter? You could add another mechanic that hold you back as well, like one where every time you take damage, even after healing it your max hp is reduced until you return to town. Maybe the dungeon inflicts a debuff on you that grows in severity over time, and you can dispel it with a joining but it always halves the amount of corruption you have rather than reducing it by a flat amount. That way, you’re encouraged to stack up as much corruption as you can handle so get the most benefit from your limited dispel resources when you decide to remove it. Maybe there’s no mana and you pay health to use any ability, but you get health back as you walk around the dungeon and can still rest to rest (or maybe this is better as a class feature?). You’d have to be careful though because the longer you’re in the dungeon, the closer you’ll get to nighttime when things get real scary. The possibilities are endless! >When I outlined the stutter-step problem I was thinking of CRPGs like Baldur's Gate The early elder scrolls games were heavily steeped in the same pen and paper sources those old CRPGs were pulling from, Baldur’s gate and Tyranny and Kingmaker all are more literal translations of those pen and paper stems while the elder scrolls games riffed on it. In the end it’s the same system, it just takes the discrete “you have x spells per day” system and makes it continuous, which allows you to rest as little as you need to restore your points, or use items to restore them. I love both types, and we wouldn’t have gotten the elder scrolls system without someone iterating on established systems so all the questioning is productive. >approves of fucking about with the player's abilities according to the experience you're trying to create >Fuck you, how dare you clumsily trade my/the players' time and enjoyment for your petty little plotting! I agree with both of these! I started replaying FF4 a while back and I found the character switch much less of a problem, yea you lose some damage at first but there is story reason for it, and I got a character that can competently heal outside of combat which I really like. Its also pretty clearly foreshadowed, the game tells you you’ll have to give up your dark power to seize the light and you’ll be weakened for it. Baby me just wanted to go gremlin mode and put up big numbers, but she also only ever used Typhlosion in pokemon and used the rest of the party purely as backups. In other words, I was bad at games. If you had taken my starter and halved its level I would have been similarly livid, but that’s because I was being bad at the game by carrying myself with one pokemon. I still wouldn’t be happy about it, but if it happened now I could absorb the loss and be ok because I’m better. This game is obviously targeted at adults, who are presumably better at games and can appreciate such changes a little more. >The other very good reason for not screwing about too much with a fallen commander's mechanical parts is simpler: I don't think I'm clever enough to pull it off. This is a good reason to not go too far with it. It’s good to push our comfort zones but it can be more fun to design to our strengths and probably leads to better games too. >No, what I was saying had to do with the 'quean's perspective of her bond with her man. >Him fucking them is an expression of our love. But directly serving the vixens, independent of his involvement—that would feel very different. Do you see what I mean? Ah, yes, I do see what you mean. I think the writing would have to make it very clear that she is definitely still getting headpats, headpats are very good, and in the default branch I think there would still be plenty of boinking going on at the inn, where they share a room of their own separate from the rest of the party. As a chastity enthusiast, denial is part of the fun so in the field there might not be any touching unless she needs to be joined and then you can release all that pressure when the two of them are together. I’m imagining something along the line of the Charlie stories from the 2D thread, where another woman is coming in and strong arming you into eating your man’s cum out of her but you’re enjoying it. As the kind of person who could probably never come out at tell and guy I want him to cuck me, the “dominant vixen steals my bf” fantasy is very appealing and I’m probably projecting that. There probably should be at least one aftercare dialog between the two of them early on where they talk about him fucking other girls and make sure they both cool with that. Yea, I know aftercare isn’t considered super sexy or whatever, but I love that kind of stuff and it could make a good addition after the sexy event. In my head, if there would be any escalation of cucking from the anchor just fucking the other girls to you serving the other girls directly it would be something either the anchor or commander is requesting. Maybe it could be a player choice moment or a result of a previous choice to start a more submissive quean route? I hope the word vomit makes sense. The specifics are hardest to write for me, I’m definitely more of a broad strokes kind of gal. >Catgirl Revolution greentext Noted, I’ll look around for it. >Anon, WHAT ???? WHAT Anon, are you implying that trees don’t deserve the right to form factions? Next you’ll be saying that they don’t deserve to be elected officials either and eject Mayor Haddas from his hard earned position. I feel like the devs for Qud played Elona and said to themselves “Wow, this game is wild and crazy. What if I simplified the mechanics and brought more of the crazy shit to the forefront?” >>3447 Now I'm imagining it as a magical item in a high fantasy game and wondering how to write the item description. >>3450 >The globals raised the limit a little while ago I see, makes sense. It's a solid change. I'm glad it was made.
>>3449 >>3451 Author put patgirl revolution up on pastebin too but it got nuked when they banned everything that wasn't code. I saved it though. Put it up on ghostbin with encryption in case they also scan for porn: https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/vgkmnys9 Password is vivalacatgirl Enjoy
>>3451 An F in the chat for Anon and her lost reply. >I do not handle interpersonal conflict well at all, it makes me just shut down. As the GM part of your job is arbitrating disputes and I’m just not cut out for that. One would think that having rules to mediate the shared daydream of the game would lead to fewer conflicts, but we all know that the reality is the opposite. Ah, to have a table of experienced players and GM who all contribute and modulate themselves in the greater spirit of having fun together... I've heard stories of such groups, but they're rare. Did the conflict arise from snitting over the game itself, or were there pre-existing issues that bubbled to the surface thanks to everyone being around the table? Either way, I suppose if your brain panics at either than they're both equally a problem. We don't get to choose our hardware. >I don’t know if it have the guts to be in charge anymore. Oh dear; as bad as that? A shame if so. Letting people play in a shared dream is a wonderful thing, and as focused as our discussion has been on the Erotically Charged Sexventure side of things, it sounds to me like you've urge and knack for it. Please don't allow bad tabletop experiences to knock you off it, or—if you're truly not cut out for a GM's cat herding responsibilities—find another way to express it. Which is what we're doing here, I suppose. >It was a steampunk vampires campaign set in 19th century Prussia. I rewrote some mechanics to make more sense for the new setting, made some neat gadgets, and put together a story where an entrenched and decadent vampire nobility came into conflict with a rising underclass of thin blooded peasant vampires armed with tesla cannons. Yes, I am aware that I am very cringe. That sounds cool, not cringe; who doesn't like a bit of vamping around in belts and superfluous gears? I think the instinctive cringe many have at that sort of thing comes from the lack of taste and experience—see also chuunibyou—that many show when creating their own stuff. But you know what? I think that there's a certain mad integrity to embracing cringe, and the difference between cringe and cool is the justified confidence that you can only develop by figuring out how to make the shit that makes you excited into something that makes others excited too. This whole thread's cringe anyway: Look at all these fuckin' words. Nerd shit. >Thanks for the non-recommendation anon! You're welcome. I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on it. Do try to play it with a controller; I suspect it'd be an awful struggle on mouse and keyboard. >as long as you’re adding mechanics that are synergistic instead of parasitic, you’re on the road to making a good game. A very good way of putting it. It's a difficult undertaking with many subtle and tricky ways to fail. >It wouldn’t be a bad thing to come up with a novel mana replacement, but if that new system plus the other mechanics start to overwhelm players then that’s no fun. Your defense of mana made me remember how important it is to have respect for genre. A game is made for players, and everyone—whether game-literate or not—knows when they're having fun. Genres exist because they work. Innovation's all very well, but there's such a thing as too much, too fast, too self-indulgently. Maybe it's like the saying about reformers and tradition: If someone can't tell you in depth why a tradition exists and how it works, then they shouldn't be allowed to do away with it. >I also wonder if mana/healing needs to be the fundamental limiter? The other fundamental limiter would be the labyrinth illness mechanic, which can be kept at bay but never truly dispelled as long as you're in there, or time. I've been playing in my head with ways to create a kind of raiding feeling to dives, where you're always torn between wanting to press just that little bit more or get out and solidify your gains. The important thing, I think, is that there can't be a clear signal that says "okay, time to go" like I described in my complaining about TP-as-clock. It has to be ambiguous enough that the player can't solve it, yet comprehensible enough that the player doesn't feel it's unfair. This isn't a roguelike, roguelite, rogue-anything, but maybe a given dungeon dive could feel a little like one? A modern roguelike's fundamental loop goes in ever-extending waves of comfort-tension-overwhelm as the player gradually comes to grips with a few things that work for them, uses those to strike out further/deeper, until they die and (hopefully) start over. (A roguelite adds an artificial floor to this process, but it's the same principle.) It's that feeling I want: Comfy, hopeful tone at the start of the dive, then things get a little shaky, then the player starts having to make retreat-press decisions, then room for error gets thinner, and finally they break off and surface so they can count their loot and prepare to go even deeper next time. In my mind, the mana countdown clock cuts off a lot of that tension. But having night as a regular barrier, something that drastically changes things so that you can only hide or flee from it... that feels right. >I’m imagining something along the line of the Charlie stories from the 2D thread, where another woman is coming in and strong arming you into eating your man’s cum out of her but you’re enjoying it. As the kind of person who could probably never come out at tell and guy I want him to cuck me, the “dominant vixen steals my bf” fantasy is very appealing and I’m probably projecting that. I quite like the Charlie stories with their presumptuous yet very perceptive and nice vixen. Put in that light, I'm beginning to understand the appeal of having one's desires read and carried out in a forceful, cheeky, yet affectionate way, without regard for whether you actually asked for them or not. Which leads me to an attempt at squaring circles: Our party-vixens' pussies, being for the pleasure and recreation of our quean-commander's man, are important. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine a certain type of cuckquean who, in wanting a vixen best able to please her man, assists that vixen with massage, grooming, and so forth, then enjoys watching that vixen in action with the feeling of a job well done. Why wouldn't our belted quean-commander, likewise, take a strong and specific interest in ensuring that the vixens are well looked after downstairs? Why wouldn't the vixens expect her to, as a matter of course? It's natural to want the women your man fucks to be happy and relaxed, so it's not strange at all for a quean adjusted to this mode to employ her tongue when it's called for. In fact, it'd be a matter of pride! How'd I do? Did that strike the right notes? Adjust the quean's internal agreement/disagreement/struggle with this way of seeing things to get different levels of humiliation. Likewise the vixens' level of true belief and/or pushiness: One possible variation is the vixen who, waiting for her turn, expects the quean to warm her up without the slightest thought that the quean might have objections or hesitation of any kind. >Yea, I know aftercare isn’t considered super sexy or whatever, but I love that kind of stuff and it could make a good addition after the sexy event. You kidding? Aftercare can be hot as fuck, as much a part of the main event psychologically speaking as the wet and sticky part. I think that the key is not to conceptualize it as a departure lounge from kinkspace, but as a way of integrating and reinforcing what's changed and/or what's stayed the same, even of celebrating the overall dynamic. As far as I'm concerned, being allowed to perform slow, loving, worshipful cleanup fellatio in between loving murmurs and headpats is a form of aftercare. >I hope the word vomit makes sense. The specifics are hardest to write for me, I’m definitely more of a broad strokes kind of gal. I think it does; thanks to your patient efforts, I'm gradually coming to understand. >I’ll look around for it. Looks like >>3452 found a way around our upload restriction! (Thank you anon.) The one they posted is the version I was talking about.
>>3452 Good to see that one wasn't lost, did the one where the wife was genetically engineering catgirls to seduce her loyal husband survive?
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I spotted this "Wife Quest" on the Playstation store recently. It seems to be a game where monstergirls steal your husband without even the decency to let you watch, and so need to be punished. Looks super-cute although the naughtiness doesn't go beyond some teasing sprites and the quest's conclusion doesn't go where we'd want it to (at least, I think it doesn't). Regardless of whether it can live up to our exacting standards, this is a step in the right direction. I am all for incremental progress on the culture of stories about girls whose bfs/husbands are stolen by monstergirls. >>3454 I had completely forgotten about that one. But I had captured the thread it was from, so here's a copy with italics and bold preserved thanks to the magic of Markdown and >>3452 showing us the way with Ghostbin https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/uvfhwmud The password is frommyheartandfrommyhand (why don't people understand / my intentions?)
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>>3453 Anon I stole that first pic from the yuri board with the intent to use it in my next post and you stole it first! Unfair! >Did the conflict arise from snitting over the game itself, or were there pre-existing issues that bubbled to the surface thanks to everyone being around the table? It was game related, and I did my best to mediate but in the end, I think the group was just too big to hold together, it was a 10 person group when most campaigns are balanced for 4-5. Everyone wanted to do something different and I managed to get them to do similar stuff some of the time but eventually things started pulling apart. The varying motivations of the difference player characters led to them having beef with each other which then spilled over into the real world and that just wasn’t fun. I also was really disappointed in myself because of one particular case where I picked up that the only other girl in the party wanted to do something but I hadn’t written anything to even begin to explore that as a possibility (she’d have been blinked to another part of the continent, away from everyone else in the party) so I just rushed through my description in a way that left no time for objections, and she was visibly crestfallen. She didn’t seem upset with me as much as she seemed upset with the other players, but I knowingly let her down. We only had a few more sessions after that, I never really got to make it up to her. >Please don't allow bad tabletop experiences to knock you off it I really do think it’s for the best. I’m ok at the improv needed to make individual sessions fun, but I struggle to write sweeping stories that are engaging in the long term. It’s also just so much pressure having to be part of a group and responsible for everyone else’s fun. Even as a player, if I decide I’m not up to playing on a given day I’m letting other people down and might even lead to the session being canceled. If I want to play a different video game tonight, or read a book, or go for a walk, then there’s nothing stopping me and I won’t let anyone down. It was a fun exercise, and I’m not definitively writing it off, I just won’t seek it out and if I never play again then that is fine by me. >find another way to express it. Which is what we're doing here, I suppose. I used to go back to the old campaign notes for the Skyrim campaign to tweak things and write characters, it was a fun thing to do on the commute to work. I lost all those updated files a few years ago when I lost the flashdrive they were on so I just have the backups now and I just haven’t felt compelled to try to re-create the work. I keep telling myself I’ll find the drive someday, but I know I won’t. It’s long gone now. >This whole thread's cringe anyway: Look at all these fuckin' words. Definitely thought you were going to point out how we’re all cucks and that’s pretty cringe. And I totally embrace the cringe, it’s just who I am! I just also like making fun of myself. >Do try to play it with a controller; I suspect it'd be an awful struggle on mouse and keyboard. Must. Resist. Urge. To. Make. Game. Unnecessarily. Difficult. >If someone can't tell you in depth why a tradition exists and how it works, then they shouldn't be allowed to do away with it. I’ve heard this before but from the other way, if they can’t tell you why it should be kept then it should be scrapped. Where does the “burden of proof” lie here? On those who wish to uphold or challenge the status quo? Do you need a reason to enact change, or do you need to have a reason to stay static? >It has to be ambiguous enough that the player can't solve it, yet comprehensible enough that the player doesn't feel it's unfair. Absolutely, as you mentioned solvable games are less fun. I think for a lot of games the mana bar is providing the latter part, giving enough certainty to keep things fair. The uncertainty comes from the fact that you don’t really know how much mana you will need moving forward. Maybe your next encounter will take 10 mana per character, maybe it will take 20, or maybe it’ll take no mana at all. And people hate on random battles these days, but random battles mean you don’t know exactly how many conflicts you will face as you walk down that hallway. In EO there’s also the FOE effect, where if one pops up you might need mana to stun it on the field in order to survive. >This isn't a roguelike, roguelite, rogue-anything, but maybe a given dungeon dive could feel a little like one? I’ve never thought about it that way before, but now that you mention it, I think EO already does this in a way? You aren’t allowed to save in the field so that means if you screw up you have to start your dive from the beginning again. Though once you return to town you get to bank your progress before the next dive. As long as we are building on top of that EO foundation and maintain a similar difficulty level, I think that the feels you are aiming for will happen. Especially if the night and illness mechanics add additional pressure. >How'd I do? Did that strike the right notes? I think so, yea! Me being the sub I am, I also care way more about my partner getting off than I do. If throughout all of this my man is watching me and he’s enjoying himself, then I’m over the moon. Of course I should warm up the other girls, make sure they’re wet and hot for my man, ready to go as soon as he desires them. It’s my job to make him feel good, even if that isn’t with my body. Service is bliss, no one even needs to touch me in order for me to have a good time. This all feels too focused on me and my very narrow angle on this fetish which is making me uncomfy, so I’m going to posit another possible scene instead! What if at some point the quean comes to the conclusion that her husband’s cum is hers by right, and as it’s his right to deposit it in whosoever he wishes, it’s her right to go and retrieve it. She naturally starts going to retrieve her rightful cum from the various vixen orifices it happens to have been deposited in. >Aftercare can be hot as fuck Being here is very confusing. Like, are any of you real? Is everyone pretending to have opinions similar to me? Are other people in the real world just hiding their feelings? Is it possible that somehow the autistic gamer cuckquean thread might be drawing in autistic gamer cuckqueans like myself? The world may never know. Really though, never had anyone say that aftercare is hot and that really took me off guard. If other people would appreciate it, then some aftercare scenes sound like a great addition! >>3452 >>3455 Anons, thank you for saving the sacred texts, your efforts are greatly appreciated!
>>3456 >it was a 10 person group !!! How the hell did that work? By all accounts that's a player count where you start needing assistant GMs, subparties, and pretty meticulous planning. >The varying motivations of the difference player characters led to them having beef with each other which then spilled over into the real world and that just wasn’t fun. Oh dear. It sounds absurd on the surface, but then one remembers that the players would perceive each other as needlessly getting in the way of the fun. If that was happening, I can see why the group disbanded. I certainly wouldn't want to play with that kind of emotional backdrop making everything awkward. Couldn't be worse than the time an 8ch/tg/ anon had a divorce kick off at their table, at least. >I also was really disappointed in myself because of one particular case where I picked up that the only other girl in the party wanted to do something but I hadn’t written anything to even begin to explore that as a possibility (she’d have been blinked to another part of the continent, away from everyone else in the party) so I just rushed through my description in a way that left no time for objections, and she was visibly crestfallen. Of course, I don't know the actual details of how you ran things for them, but was it expected that you should have been able to accommodate a character suddenly popping away, solo, to another continent? Seems reasonable to shut it down, even if she thought it would have been fun. That sounds to me like the kind of thing that pulls GM time away from everyone else without entertaining them and requires the GM to put in a lot of unexpected extra work, and thus would be quite inconsiderate for a player to want to do. Still, it's never a happy thing to let someone down. >I’ve heard this before but from the other way, if they can’t tell you why it should be kept then it should be scrapped. That is the more common line, yes, whether expressed as the monkeys-and-ladders clipart comic, or thus: “Tradition is the democracy of the dead. It means giving a vote to the most obscure of all classes: our ancestors.” It's usual in such stories to present tradition as senseless worship of ashes, as something terribly crippling and binding that must be regarded with great suspicion if we are to free ourselves, or else as a dead but comfortable thing that encourages laziness of thought that leads to decay. The problem I have with this is that it presents itself as brave and exploratory thinking while actually being quite a small and limited perspective. I don't understand it, and it's getting in my way, so it has to go! Sometimes, by accident, it's correct—especially when the "tradition" is not tradition at all but convention—but often it ends up irreparably breaking and erasing terribly important links to deep systems that developed organically over a very long time, perfectly fit to solve problems that most have long forgotten. Problems which, given the opportunity, are only too happy to make a patient but powerful return. As a pocket example of the principle, take cassava roots. Very important food, vital calories for those cultures who relied and still rely on them. One catch: They're poisonous. Hydrogen cyanide. To make cassava safe requires an intense and tedious multi-day, multi-step process involving repeated cycles of grating, soaking, fermentation, drying, and grinding. Now, if you don't do this or you do it incompletely, you won't notice any immediate effects. Some processing will remove the bitter taste and stop immediate poisoning. But over time those who consume the incompletely-processed flour will be slowly poisoned and develop paralysis in their legs. Imagine you're a would-be reformer back in the days before modern science and medicine, and the tedious cassava processing has caught your eye. "Why do we do it this way?" you ask. Nobody quite seems to know: It's how your mother did it, and how her grandmother did it, and so on back through the generations. It's How Things Are Done, a creaky, old, hide-bound tradition. So what, then, would be the harm in reducing the drying and soaking time? It produces equally tasty cassava, and those who eat the flour aren't hurt by it as far as you can see! Plus, now the process is far more efficient, and those who were previously pouring that extra time into it can now do other things. Maybe things are a little thin right now, and you really need that extra labor. Except, whoops, you fucked up and removed the solution to a problem you didn't even know existed, and which you're going to have a hell of a time tracking down given the link between that leg paralysis and long-term consumption of your wonderfully efficient flour isn't at all obvious. This happened in Mozambique, where a Swedish doctor found himself stumped by sudden presentation of cases of leg paralysis tricking in: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48859333 >But how does anyone learn the elaborate preparation needed for cassava or nardoo? >No single person does, according to Joseph Henrich, an evolutionary biologist. >He argues this knowledge is cultural. Our cultures evolve though a process of trial and error analogous to evolution in biological species. Like biological evolution, cultural evolution can - given enough time - produce impressively sophisticated results. The full version of the quote I gave a few paragraphs above is this: >Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man’s opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man’s opinion, even if he is our father. I am perhaps being a reactionary, but on balance I'd say the burden of proof falls upon the would-be reformer. This isn't to say they can't reform—reform is an important counter-force that keeps that cultural selection process ticking over—merely that they must be subject to great scrutiny before they go slashing and burning at something much bigger and more important than themselves, and which might not make its full effects known far after the reformer has happily collected their kudos and loot. If you can't draw on three thousand years then you're living hand-to-mouth. But, despite all that, there’s also a lot to be said for piss, vinegar, and getting pissed off at gerontocracy. There’s no fool like an old fool, especially the old fool who wants to cash in your inheritance (whatever that might happen to be in this metaphor), and the “conservative” who just wants to coast along with eyes wide shut a little longer. I guess what I’m saying here is that those who came before us, whether those be ancestors or long-departed colleagues, were rarely the idiots we imagine them to be, and that it’s good to respect them, understand them, and question our urge to tear down what they built a little more than we presently do. Of course, when it comes to making creative works then one's free to do whatever one wants with respect to genre and convention. There's not a lot of consequence if you fuck up, after all. But here, as in larger matters, those before you did what they did for a reason and if you're not aware of why they did it then you're shooting in the dark. Sometimes that works, creating entire new genres in the process. But more often it leads to stuff that doesn't quite feel right, doesn't quite play right, and nobody quite knows why; just ask any editor. I am by nature a tweaker and botherer of The Way Things Are, but I also hate it when perfectly good things get fucked with for no good reason, so all of what I think above is really just me trying to take out an insurance policy against hubris. >Maybe your next encounter will take 10 mana per character, maybe it will take 20, or maybe it’ll take no mana at all. And people hate on random battles these days, but random battles mean you don’t know exactly how many conflicts you will face as you walk down that hallway. I'd point out that although you don't know exactly how many you might get or what they'll be, the fact that you're encountering them based on various encounter chances, step counts, etc. means that over time the variance between those individual battles and the resources they consume over time will average out. You might not know whether you'll use 0, 10, or 20 mana per encounter, but if you have a one-third chance of each encounter then your consumption per encounter will converge on 10. Because of this averaging effect, opportunity for the designer to create moment-to-moment tension are limited, and often that means that the random encounter areas average out into "time + mana in, loot + levels out". There's a reason that the clicker and auto-battler genres started out as gentle satires of such systems. That's why people remembered the FOEs so vividly: They were serious threats that could never be folded into the normal random encounter deck—too unfair—but which nevertheless drew players' eyes as the big thing you had to plan around. Without the FOEs, Etrian would have been a slightly above-average genre crawler. Actually, even the FOEs were dug out from earlier stages of dungeon crawlers. Would it be too much of a stretch to say that 3D Monster Maze on the ZX81 invented FOEs? I think it might be, but I'm going to say it anyway. >This all feels too focused on me and my very narrow angle on this fetish which is making me uncomfy My apologies, Anon; I didn't mean for my curiosity to pin you under a microscope. It's important to me to be able to properly understand something before I try to represent it. Thank you for being as forthcoming as you were. >Being here is very confusing. Like, are any of you real? Is everyone pretending to have opinions similar to me? Are other people in the real world just hiding their feelings? Is it possible that somehow the autistic gamer cuckquean thread might be drawing in autistic gamer cuckqueans like myself? I'm not autistic in any real sense, but two out of three ain't bad! Can't say for sure I'm real, though. >Really though, never had anyone say that aftercare is hot and that really took me off guard. If other people would appreciate it, then some aftercare scenes sound like a great addition! I think there are a few reasons aftercare's often not treated as hot. For starters, it's not—at least, not inherently. If what's "hot" to you is the act itself—especially if you're heavily on the physical play side of things—then aftercare's when you patch up and come down from your high, while watching for all the attendant risks that come-down involves. It's important that it not be sexual in nature because then it would be an extension of the scene and risk neutralizing the "after" function. If you're doing it with a casual play partner or otherwise outside a loving long-term bond, as many BDSM players do, then there's little emotional context; it's the closing-off of a transaction. But cuckqueans? Oho, we're fucking freaks to many BDSM people—trust me, I've been there, I've seen the looks in their eyes—because we've gone full kink on a fundamental bond. What we play with, what we really play with, is something you can't switch on and off transactionally, not really. We're 24/7ers! So aftercare, in that 24/7 context, takes on the new layers of meaning that I mentioned in the previous posts. Aftercare with a cuckquean isn't just checking for bruises, hydration, and watching for drop—it's an expression of the relationship, the bond, which is the thing we play with in the first place. Warm cuddles aren't just warm cuddles, they're simultaneously a declaration of queany submission ("I loved that") and dominance ("Come home into the same arms that just held the vixen"). The same's true for other 24/7ers, I assume, where the aftercare itself contains the promise of more to come. An owner patching up his favorite toy is hot, but two casual play partners being considerate of each other is less so, at least in my mind. This isn't to look down on those casual play partners, by the way, I'm just thinking out loud as to why the aftercare-is-hot thing doesn't come up more.
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>>3458 >How the hell did that work? The group started out with 4, but then they told their friends how much fun they were having and everyone wanted to join, so people trickled in over time. There were times when they separated into different groups and I ran their stuff separately, other times they were all together. It didn’t feel very difficult to me, they gave me their backstories and I knew enough about the setting to just let things flow with what they wanted. You want to go hunt trolls? For sure, you’ve got that. Looking for a job in town? Ethereal filchers have been causing trouble for the townsfolk, nicking all kinds of things, go hunt em down. Wana go kill dragons? Ok, good luck funding one since they’ve been dead forever but put an ear to the ground and see what you can dig up. They just wanted to go around and have a good time, I threw plothooks at them until they stuck then played up the things they asked lots of questions about or showed interest in. Wound up on an adventure surrounding the fate character’s now mother, elven refugees, the search for the dead dwemmer (and for boatmurdered, if you’re familiar with the dwarf fortress story), and the perfect fishing net. They were hardly interested in the civil war or the dragons, so played with minimal interaction on that axis for months until things fell apart between players. I think the fallout is also partially my fault, since I was relying heavily on their input for what to do and when they didn’t all agree they butted heads. But the good times were good, they gave me a lot of praise for the campaign, and they seemed to be engaged. I hope they had fun in the end. >was it expected that you should have been able to accommodate a character suddenly popping away, solo, to another continent? I don’t really know how expected it was to be honest. I had presented D&D as a game where anything can happen, and I do believe that to be true and that it’s part of what makes it great, and up until that point I had never really outright said “no, you cant do that” and instead it was more like “you’re sure you want to 1v50 the entire town guard after stealing a sweetroll? You realize you won’t get to reload like in the game, right?” For more context we were wrapping up an adventure with a stronger party who I had thrown in for funsies. Some of the characters were played by people from my last campaign who were in town for the week, and I wanted to show off some neat builds/have a higher level PC powered group to let the party know they aren’t the only adventuring group out there and some big fish are in that pond. I also had hoped that they could someday surpass this group in strength, which would have been really cool. After working together for a few sessions, their time together was coming to a close and it was time for the other group to go on and do high level stuff since they weren’t going to babysit the PCs. The two groups were having a debrief session after having achieved their joint goal, and as part of that everyone was asking each other questions about where they were going, what they were going to do next, how to get a hold of each other if either party heard anything relevant to the other, etc. Good roleplay was had all around. My friend, let’s call her Ann, expressed a lot of interest in these characters, specifically the translation/anthropological work being done by their non-combat scholar, and she seemed interested in getting involved in that part of the plot. The other players, however, weren’t super interested and were ready to move on to do other things, and so they said “yea, we’re good, they can leave” and then Ann started to speak up but I pretended I couldn’t hear her (I’m a little bit hard of hearing), closed out the farewell, and had the other party teleport away. I made the assumption that she wanted to go with them, and did some very fast brain thinking to come to the conclusion that if she asked to go there wasn’t a good reason for the other party to say no. They liked her, she could be helpful, and they were strong enough to teleport her over with them. So rather than let her say her peace and try to come up with reasoning why she can’t go, I just shut it down. In post session debrief she let the other players know that she wanted to go with the other group, that she would have if given the chance, and that since they are a group two people saying “we’re done” doesn’t mean that we are actually done. She was upset more that the other party members hadn’t consulted her before saying everyone was good, and I apologized and said “if I had heard you, I wouldn’t have just ended it like that. I’m sorry. If that happens again wave your arms or something to flag me down so I can know.” It twists my stomach to think about how I just lied to her face like that. It was not cool of me to just talk over her and ignore what she wanted just because I had a storyline panic. Good DMs know you don’t put anything in your game that you aren’t prepared to have your players touch/break, and I thought I knew that too but turns out I screwed up. I wasn’t a good friend or a good DM that night, but I learned my lesson at least and I can try to be better now. >I guess what I’m saying here is that those who came before us, whether those be ancestors or long-departed colleagues, were rarely the idiots we imagine them to be, and that it’s good to respect them, understand them, and question our urge to tear down what they built a little more than we presently do. The work and wit of our forebears is crushed under the heel of the march of progress. We think ourselves smarter than them, that progress exists and we have become better than they were. I think, though, that if you take the time to look back on what humanity has wrought you know that they had just as much capacity for greatness, and if we look at people’s behavior now we can see that we retain the same capacity for barbarity as well. A major factor separating us from witch trials and public hangings is that we have newer, more fashionable spectacles to be distracted by, but graphic and gory depictions of violence, both staged in film and captured live, shows us that we are still fascinated by brutality. We’re no better, we’re no worse. We’re just people, trying to get by in the world. Always have been, always will be. >Of course, when it comes to making creative works then one's free to do whatever one wants with respect to genre and convention. There's not a lot of consequence if you fuck up I think the consequences angle has a strong impact on how one should treat the tradition vs innovation question. If we are talking about something potentially serious, like food preparation, burial practices, land use, etc. then I think tradition carries far more weight and you shouldn’t shove it to the side so easily. Even then, I think the questioning of tradition is still pretty much always good. If we don’t question things, we never learn why they are needed and then those reasons can become lost. When it comes to entertainment and art, where the consequences are lesser, we are free to deviate from tradition when tradition fails to provide good reasons to adhere to it. The consequences that do come about in these cases often fall only on the work being made, or the creator. If you deviate too far from the traditions of your medium it fails to be recognized as part of that medium, and your work may be spurned by others. I think keeping tradition in mind as a self defense mechanism is perfectly valid, and it’s not as though you’re discarding things thoughtlessly in your design process so I think you’re good. >often that means that the random encounter areas average out into "time + mana in, loot + levels out" Ahh, math, every gamer’s true nemesis. I didn’t think about it this way and you have a good point. My counterpoint would be that this is true of systems where the distribution of difficulty for random combat encounter has a relatively small standard deviation. If the data we are looking have a wide SD and skewed distribution, though, then you can have a player experience of “spikey” difficulty. EO achieves some of this through FOEs as you mention; highly salient encounters with difficulty so high they are clearly outliers for their floors. FOEs are often so powerful you can’t come back to kill them until around the time you want to beat that stratum’s boss, and for some very strong FOEs you can’t do so until after you’re partway through the next stratum. But you can achieve something similar by having some of the random encounters being more difficulty than the norm, not to the degree of a FOE, but still very challenging. The different parts of the dungeon floor can have totally different enemy spawn tables, and you can bet I can tell you which ones spawn the murder worms that wreck you in the first stratum, or the angry longneck who spends their starting turn buffing themselves so you have sufficient time to wet yourself before they one shot your party. The angy sauropod in particular has the highest health of non FOE enemies in that stratum, and as noted by the pic attached it has more health than even some FOEs. This is the first time I’ve even looked at this table and I didn’t remember what the monster’s name was, I just sorted it by health and figured it would stand out and boy does it. These encounters are beatable with the right resource investment, but it’s a high investment to make. Not knowing if you’ll have to face something like that around the corner makes you paranoid, and leaves you wondering “do I really have enough to keep going? I’ll be ok if nothing too bad happens, but if I’m ambushed by enemies that use leg bind to stop us running we’re toast. But all that doesn’t invalidate your point, if handled poorly players will do unconscious math and figure out a resource consumption curve. We can muck their math up by introducing variability in difficulty, such that their expected consumption could differ wildly from actual consumption, and if difficulty varies not only based on which floor you are on but where you are on the floor, you can make it hard for the player to project resource consumption curves out very far, opening up the possibility for the developer to create tension. EO does this well I think, but maybe I’m being overly influenced by the outlier difficult encounters and a more level headed gamer would just plan for the worst case and be pleasantly surprised afterward. Man, I really have been sucking this game’s dick for months now haven’t I? I really need to get around to finishing my playthrough of 3, how can I sing this game’s praises when I put it down for so long to play something else? >Can't say for sure I'm real, though. If you’re a girl on the internet like me, then you are definitely not real. My condolences. >Warm cuddles aren't just warm cuddles, they're simultaneously a declaration of queany submission ("I loved that") and dominance ("Come home into the same arms that just held the vixen") My brain has been disarmed by the idea of post cucking cuddles and is imagining him smelling like her perfume and it’s just a lightheaded happy blur. However, my addled brain agrees with you. I probably think of aftercare as hotter than most because an affirmation of love after just viewing something that most people would consider to be a betrayal of that love is so essential to the whole experience turning out well that it is perceived as an extension of said sexual experience.
>>3465 >The group started out with 4, but then they told their friends how much fun they were having and everyone wanted to join, so people trickled in over time. There were times when they separated into different groups and I ran their stuff separately, other times they were all together. It didn’t feel very difficult to me, they gave me their backstories and I knew enough about the setting to just let things flow with what they wanted. >But the good times were good, they gave me a lot of praise for the campaign, and they seemed to be engaged. I hope they had fun in the end. That does sound like fun. All things have their season, I suppose. >It twists my stomach to think about how I just lied to her face like that. It was not cool of me to just talk over her and ignore what she wanted just because I had a storyline panic. I understand why you're a bit torn up over it, now. At least that your conscience stung you shows you do have a conscience and that it's operating properly. >But you can achieve something similar by having some of the random encounters being more difficulty than the norm, not to the degree of a FOE, but still very challenging. The different parts of the dungeon floor can have totally different enemy spawn tables, and you can bet I can tell you which ones spawn the murder worms that wreck you in the first stratum, or the angry longneck who spends their starting turn buffing themselves so you have sufficient time to wet yourself before they one shot your party. I did consider the rare-encounter idea, but initially dismissed it as a way of giving that SD a little spiking. But mapping it to specific areas on specific floors does add something to it! If you can rig an encounter table such that the rare encounters feel like they can happen but don't happen so often or so strongly that they feel unfair, then they become part of the press-or-retreat tradeoff decision... >Not knowing if you’ll have to face something like that around the corner makes you paranoid, and leaves you wondering “do I really have enough to keep going? I’ll be ok if nothing too bad happens, but if I’m ambushed by enemies that use leg bind to stop us running we’re toast. ...as you point out. >a more level headed gamer would just plan for the worst case and be pleasantly surprised afterward But that's the interesting thing, right? If you set up a challenge just right, there's no one dominant strategy that'll bring you out. If the player has to choose to be level-headed or risk-taking, then you've made something interesting. >Man, I really have been sucking this game’s dick for months now haven’t I? I can say without reservation that you are the #1 Etrian Odyssey fan I have ever encountered. I don't know what the encounter table for that looks like, but I certainly didn't expect it to map onto /cuckquean/. >him smelling like her perfume and it’s just a lightheaded happy blur It's so much more than her perfume, though, it's amazing. After he's cucked me, regardless of whether he's showered or not, for hours or sometimes days afterward he absolutely reeks of this... I can only describe it as "testosterone cloud". It doesn't smell of anything in particular, it's more to smell what umami is to taste, making everything richer. Under its influence, details pop themselves into my nose—his sweat, her pussy, the soap they showered together with before they fucked, sometimes slight dustings of her makeup if it smeared onto him, even the slight whiff of condoms if I've got myself right up against his cock, and more, all at the same time, a scent cocktail for me to huff, half-senseless. And, when I wasn't there to see it in person, those smells unfold themselves and testify as he tells me about some of the things he did with her. Little witnesses.
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>>3479 >If the player has to choose to be level-headed or risk-taking, then you've made something interesting. You're right, the difficult thing is setting the challenge up just right and that's easier said than done. Building on the example of EO is a great starting point, but I also wouldn’t want to get stuck in the mindset of "this worked for EO so it will work here!" It's not exactly the same, but it makes me think about final fantasy 13, where at a superficial level it has many similar story themes to FF 7. It seems almost like a stab at trying to recapture some of the magic of 7, trying to get the lightning (kek) to strike twice. However, the more linear path, lack of towns, limited customization/party construction, etc. led to the game not feeling like a JRPG and kept a lot of people from engaging with that story to the same level. That was a conscious decision on the part of the devs; they had taken a page from the Call of Duty storytelling method and attempted to streamline their game and it didn’t work for their chosen medium. Without connecting to the story, people aren’t willing to put up with the relatively thin combat that characterizes JRPGs and led, in part, to the game’s poor reception from fans. What I would need to be careful to avoid is falling into similar pitfalls. Yes, I love EO, but at its heart the core gameplay loop is running into hundreds of random battles and cutting down thousands of monsters in combat that can feel very samey, all the while character build progress occurs very slowly and you have to draw out a map of the place by hand. It all works because of the gestalt, and I don’t think it’s balanced on a razor’s edge or anything, but as a game that is carried by its feeling we’d have to make sure any mechanical changes being made don’t throw off the Etrian’s groove. > I can say without reservation that you are the #1 Etrian Odyssey fan I have ever encountered. This has been an odd journey of self-discovery to me, because I would have said “yea, I like the Etrian Oddesy games” before but I wouldn’t have put them down as my favorite games as the time I’ve spent with them pales in comparison to game like EU4, CKII, and the Dominions series. Heck, I only just finished EO 2 late last year. I know I love both RPGs and strategy games, but until embarking on this design exercise I would have said I’m more of a strategy/sim gamer than I am an RPG gamer. But after sitting down and thinking about all the things EO does and how it manages to forge such a great feeling from such an objectively monotonous core gameplay loop I’ve come to a far deeper appreciation for all those little things it does. Just because it didn’t take be 1000+ hours of my life to master over several years doesn’t mean it wasn’t an amazing game. The memories I have are great. The feelings these games have evoked, though subtle, are still poignant. I’m coming to realize that EO may just be my favorite game series, a little DS title I picked out of a bargain bin as a kid because the cover looked cool. I thought I liked it because I love to grind in games, but it turns out it’s a lot deeper than it first appeared. Thanks for taking the time to engage in this exercise with me Anon, I learned something about myself. I wonder if I have any other games I secretly love more than I’m aware. > those smells unfold themselves and testify as he tells me about some of the things he did with her. Little witnesses. This is beautiful, really. I think the quiet moments of a fetish are always the most compelling. When people think about fetishes it seems to be in terms of a raw, red hot sex, but people don’t tend to listen to those touching moments that tug at your heart strings instead of your dick. It gives me warm fuzzies to know another person is out there happy and warm and content, that they found a nice little bubble to weather the storms of life. I’m the forever alone type of gal, by choice really, but I can’t help but also feel pangs of envy at your experience. I’m being cucked out of getting cucked, dangit! The double decker cuck sandwich. >>3455 I really like how the wife is less endowed than the monster girls, at least those shown in the art. The steam reviews seem to be mostly positive, with people comparing it to megaman. It also has a demo on newgrounds, so I might check it out. Thanks for letting us know, anon!
>>3489 >easier said than done That’s everything, innit? We all know that the more fun something is to consume, the harder it is to make. All like this involves figurative blood sacrifice, one way or the other. I’m a firm believer in the Roman model of genius, in which we are merely vessels commandeered by ideas yearning to be born. Birth is painful. >they had taken a page from the Call of Duty storytelling method and attempted to streamline their game and it didn’t work for their chosen medium Bless them, they tried. But ripping away the affordances that give your genre its texture almost never end well, not unless you’re willing to do the huge amount of work to re-upholster the void you’ve left. XIII-2 was a much better second attempt, but… hubris. You know. Aah, how comforting it is that even the multimillion dollar professionals fuck up too. >you have to draw out a map of the place by hand Honestly, this is what made me try out EO in the first place. How cool was it that they made such a… such a trivially automatable thing something that the player had to do? What is it about grid paper that holds such romance? What respect they had for their history, and what faith in their players! I’ll grant you that I’m a fuckin’ weirdo, but I think it’s great. >as a game that is carried by its feeling Yes! The vibe! The vibe! The all-important ǝqᴉʌ! The space between the spokes that we call a wheel, the space within the vessel, the emptiness from which is drawn a game’s utility! How lovely it is to be able to give others’ minds somewhere to take a holiday, but how fragile paradise can be. >game like EU4, CKII, and the Dominions series. Heck, I only just finished EO 2 late last year. I know I love both RPGs and strategy games, but until embarking on this design exercise I would have said I’m more of a strategy/sim gamer than I am an RPG gamer Oh! I personally love RPGs and weird concept stuff the most, but I have some map autism under my belt too - if you haven’t played them already, may I suggest Alicesoft’s Daiteikoku and Sengoku Rance? The former was never fully translated, but I loved what I did play of it. Also, Rance’s Sill a cute. >The memories I have are great. The feelings these games have evoked, though subtle, are still poignant. ᵛᶦᵇᵉˢ >I’m the forever alone type of gal, by choice really, but I can’t help but also feel pangs of envy at your experience. The longer I live and the more I see, the luckier I feel. I can find plenty to complain about - probably unjustifiably - in life, but not this.
>>3508 >That’s everything, innit? Well, when you put it that way, yes! >We all know that the more fun something is to consume, the harder it is to make I like this saying, though the pedant in me wants me to point out that I like cooking and I regularly make dishes that are easy but very fun to consume like slow cooker meals and stews. >Bless them, they tried. >XIII-2 was a much better second attempt, but… hubris. You know. >how comforting it is that even the multimillion dollar professionals fuck up too. They did try, and I give square a lot of credit for starting each game's storyline over from scratch, with the exception of their handful of direct sequels. Their commitment to change up gameplay between games is laudable. That fact that they cleaned it up in XIII-2 and learned lessons from their mistakes instead of having a "do you guys not have phones?" reaction is also worth noting. I've only played a few of the 3D final fantasy games to be honest, just 10 and 12, so I can't speak directly to that improvement but what I've heard from friends is good. >What is it about grid paper that holds such romance? What respect they had for their history, and what faith in their players! I’ll grant you that I’m a fuckin’ weirdo, but I think it’s great. I feel the same way. Based on my experience, I think the appeal comes, again, from the vibes. The dungeon is unknown, you are forging a path forward into the heart of darkness and you're the only one who can chart the uncharted. Vibes! Yes, automaps are nice and they remove you from having to think about your map and instead focus on the gameplay, but for a slower turn based game like EO you don't need to free up that cognitive space. In fact, if you stripped back the mapping mechanic I think you would need to add something else to make the game interesting or it might get bland, something like the persona series' social systems or the press turn system from its parent SMT. Or, if i may be so bold, cuckquean mechanics? If we send a link to this thread to Altus, do you think we could convince them to make the game for us? >Alicesoft’s Daiteikoku and Sengoku Rance I know Alicesoft makes good games because everyone says they do, but I haven't actually played them. I also I considered Eventicle, but I heard that has vore and gore and that really squicks me out. I'm sure I will play them someday, but I'm also still playing through The Last Sovereign and working on a second playthrough of Kamidori so maybe after those. >The longer I live and the more I see, the luckier I feel. I Feel similarly actually. I wonder if that's one of those things that comes with age but that people don't tell you about, or if they did tell me when I was younger I didn't believe them and then forgot. Maybe it's just easier to tell people you'll have knee pain or regret eating all those cheeseburgers than it is to try to express how you find yourself more grateful with time. >I can find plenty to complain about - probably unjustifiably - in life, but not this. I'm glad you're happy Anon, and it isn't like I'm not happy, just in different ways. Nothing in life is certain, I could always change my mind about things someday, but as of right now riding solo is just better for me. And it means I don't have to clean my room if I don't want to, I can eat ice cream at 3 AM, I can cry about cute otters without anyone asking "what's wrong?", and I don't have to worry about someone leaving the seat up. It's easier to relax and just be me if I don't have to think about being performative.
>>3511 >the pedant in me wants me to point out that I like cooking and I regularly make dishes that are easy but very fun to consume Alas, if only your delicious meals could be replicated and distributed at media's fractional cost. The nice thing about the state of gaming today is that it is a little bit more like cooking, at least on the indie side of things, but it's still got its hellish media-scene and creative-industry elements mixed in. >I give square a lot of credit for starting each game's storyline over from scratch I suspect a lot of that strategy had to do with keeping their people. Those who tend to push the envelope need novel challenges; nothing scatters a talented group like being trapped by their own success. Final Fantasy was Square's last attempt at staving off bankruptcy by going whole hog anyway, hence the name, so I guess "fuck it, let's just do something else" was baked into its lineage from the start. It can be tempting, looking back, to mush all the FF games together and say they were just re-hashes on the same formula, but I don't think that's true at all once you look closely. Saying JRPGs are identical to each other is like saying platformers are identical to each other. >if you stripped back the mapping mechanic I think you would need to add something else to make the game interesting or it might get bland I think the reason it worked was because it gave the player an activity that crystalized that sense of exploration and discovery. The same's true of adventure-puzzle games—Myst and Riven come to mind—where you have to write stuff down to have a hope of deciphering not only the solutions, but also what the puzzles are in the first place. We could imagine Myst with some kind of journaling system that automatically logs the relevant information on puzzle links and operation for a player, leaving them only to crunch a solution, but that would completely destroy the mysterious vibe of the game and reduce it to a dull, plodding process of automatically having your journal swallow as much info as you can find before you kick your brain into gear. By leaving the player to map or otherwise extract information from the environment, you prime them to pay attention to that environment. Suddenly, if you've designed the rest of the game right, that attention turns mere background detail into something thrilling. >Or, if i may be so bold, cuckquean mechanics? If we send a link to this thread to Altus, do you think we could convince them to make the game for us? Atlus publishes weird shit all the time, and I love them for it. Suspect they'd not publish a cuckqueaning-themed game in absence of a pretty heavy layer of artful abstraction safely sealing it off, though. >I'm also still playing through The Last Sovereign How is it, Anon? By now you'll have gone far beyond the point I long ago reached, and I'm interested to hear whether things manage to stay satisfyingly interesting. >It's easier to relax and just be me if I don't have to think about being performative. I hear sometimes from people whose significant others don't understand them well at all or vice-versa and it makes me very sad. I can't imagine what it must be like to be lonely around or alienated from the person you share your life with, let alone having to constantly guard against somehow stressing or upsetting them merely by existing.
>>3534 >delicious meals This is far too generous Anon, I make simple food that's appropriately spiced. Most people who try food I've cooked for myself don't care for it much, it's either too spicy or too bland for them. I only really break out the butter and salt when cooking for someone else, that's really what makes good food. >meals could be replicated and distributed at media's fractional cost This reminds me of the Chef Boyardee backstory, where he was a professional chef with his own restaurant and after so many people were asking for him to make sauce for them he started a factory to mass produce canned pasta dishes. As a kid, Chef Boyardee was the food you got when mom was working late and you had to fend for yourself, it wasn't restaurant fare. I sometimes wonder how similar today's canned ravioli is to the pasta he served in his restaurant back in the 20s. Was it the same quality, and I just have more refined taste now? Or was it changed so much in the push to mass production that it wouldn't be recognizable to its creator? If someone tried to take the food I love to make and turned it into a ready-made meal for the masses, what would that mass produced version look like? Would eating that food feel similar to the experience of a game developer, watching the beautiful edges of their game be sanded off to created a homogeneous experience that can be better inserted into the anus of game reviewers and the mathematically average consumer? >I suspect a lot of that strategy had to do with keeping their people. I didn't think about this as a factor, but this totally makes sense! I figured it was a design decision being made, since the plot of the first FF game is rather self contained. I thought they figured they'd make a new plot up, and in the process they decided to tell a complete story within one game again, rather than set up a trilogy or something. I really like those self contained stories that FF games tell, they're long games but compared to other serialized games the pacing feels better since the story is designed to span only the one game. There are few good second games in a trilogy, and after the cash cow trilogy ends, studios often have to make another game using the same characters in order to keep the lights on anyway. By dodging this issue, square has managed to make more FF games than land before time movies and they're still pretty darn good. Bravo square, now give my some more pixel games in the style of 6. I beg you. >I think the reason it worked was because it gave the player an activity that crystalized that sense of exploration and discovery. >By leaving the player to map or otherwise extract information from the environment, you prime them to pay attention to that environment. This is a good point, and a better way to get across what I was trying to express. By having to map manually, you get sucked into the world and that helps you feel more present in that world. Immersion good! >Suspect they'd not publish a cuckqueaning-themed game in absence of a pretty heavy layer of artful abstraction safely sealing it off I sadly have to agree with you. I do wish that regular game devs made H games more often, but I understand it can poison your ability to market your non H games once you hit the X rated stuff. There are definitely some very solid H games out there with good gameplay and H content, but there are far more glorified visual novels or literal visual novels with no gameplay to speak of. >How is it, Anon? I'm not sure how long you played, but where I am currently, it's still very fun! I like the writing, I like the characters, I like the H content. I will admit, though, that I find myself constantly missing the ability to grind. While I've played several games with a "git gud" mentality (Dark Souls, Monster Hunter, League of Legends, etc.), they pretty much always had some mechanic to boost your in game power and by doing so make it possible to clear challenges with less gamer skill. Games without any grind mechanic, without any way to trade my time for a slightly easier challenge, make me feel weird. The limited battles also mean I lack a playground to try out different strategies, and that means I feel less able to branch out from tried and true combat strategies. It reminds me of my childhood playing Super Mario bros, where after tons of trial and error I could clear the first castle, only to find that the first stage of the next level was even harder than that castle. I never beat the second castle as a kid because there was no way to advance outside of getting better at platforming and memorizing the levels, and that was just beyond me back then. TLS brings back those same feelings, it regularly makes me pressed in my power level in ways that are uncomfortable, but I ultimately find it worth pushing through that discomfort to enjoy the game. > I can't imagine what it must be like to be lonely around or alienated from the person you share your life with, let alone having to constantly guard against somehow stressing or upsetting them merely by existing. This was my experience growing up, with my family. My life is fantastic now so I have no intention of returning to that existence again, and definitely not with a romantic partner.
>>3384 I don't know some of these story elements, like phylacters, effects of redglass, and types of joining, and maybe some of them are from Etrian Odyssey. Perhaps we aren't meant to fully understand Leta's condition. However, I could follow the story reasonably well, and I quite enjoyed what I understood. Thank you for sharing your work. Almost everything in the work seems to revolve around alchemy and potions; effectively this could be read as lubricated and drugged sexual activity, which are kinks in themselves. I don't dislike it, but it gives an interesting flavor to the work. These people are adapting to the requirements of their environment in many ways. >‘Commander,’ Eir demurred. Her hand disappeared into one of her many pouches, and emerged holding a round vial filled with clear gel. I don't wish to nitpick, and for the most part your English is very good, but to "demur" is to object or hesitate, and I think you didn't mean that. >and nothing will ever change that. Hm, I note Sten doesn't affirm this assertion... but he does later. That's nice. >a fragile skin of intelligence stretched itself over the roiling madness in her eyes. I like this phrase. >Only take off as much as you need to, everyone, Sex in armor? Hot. >The tamped-down butterflies escaped; a burst of frightened adrenaline detonated behind Leta’s ribs. Since when had she begun picking out little details of her husband seeing to other woman? She was no longer merely enduring the sex as a necessary joining of an anchor and the girls on his ring: she was appreciating it, as though it were a favourite dish or song! Why was she smiling? No woman in her position should! Oh no! lol >But a heartbeat later, Yasu’s brown eyes returned, and what Leta saw in them shook her. I wonder if Leta's role gives her special insight/empathy, or if this is mundane intuition and inference. >>3385 >She felt the kiss of approaching rain, heard the distant calls of the forest’s creatures, saw the subtle fluctuations of green-fire sweeping the trees that surrounded them – these, and a thousand other details, refracted through her as though she were a perfect prism, a single sieve through which the world – itself revealed as an infinity of the tiniest brushstrokes – filtered and knew itself. So it was that for a moment – a wonderful, infinite moment – Leta was more than she was. A taste of what it means to master the Labyrinth, perhaps? Seems like the perception of a deity, or at least a genius loci. >Whenever Sofi had the chance to get her hands on Sten, no matter how, all of the redhead’s common sense drained out through her pussy. Well make the silly slut lick it back up then! (This isn't directly relevant, but I played a rather silly H-RPG years ago called Overwhored, focused on harem and mind control stuff, not really cuckqueaning aside from the basic fact of MC's girls working to capture others and sometimes verbally encourage them to join them. One of the cutscenes has a girl say something like "Oh gosh! I can feel all my free will draining out of me! I'm dripping free will all over your balls! Can I lick it off later?! Can I lick my free will off your balls?" and that last sentence is just burned into my brain. Uh, I think you're a better writer than whoever did that sex scene, but... I was reminded and thought I'd share.) >>3431 As one of those who encouraged you to post, I have been away, sorry. :( >>3392 Of course it is abuse, without consent or a very strong justification. "gaslighting" may be an appropriate term at times. But by way of analogy, hitting someone with a whip or burning with hot wax is just plain old physical abuse and torture, unless it's kink. >>3434 (checked) >On it's face it seems to be more domquean than subquean, but I can see how it could still work for subquean with the right party characters and choices made in events. I had a similar thought about "Commander" (or "Supervisor" which our author seems to use for the same role). Some more neutral term might be ideal. Unfortunately most terms for an organizing role carry some connotation of authority, including my first thought of "Coordinator". Maybe it's not a problem and I'm overthinking it. (In this thread? I know, right?) >Your point about tying Yasu up and carrying her out of the dungeon also makes me think of how that would play out in a real EO game, which would be you using a warp wire/ariadne thread to teleport back to base. It's probably a design misstep in a game like our hypothetical one to make teleportation too cheap an out instead of sexy solutions like in this story. Maybe later in the progression. Your thoughts on that aspect seem good to me. >>3437 >That makes sense. CoC has really specific scenes written for when you defeat monsters and while that is neat the first time, it gets old fast. That particular game also has the problem where if you do something enough those scenes can change, but if you stopped reading the scene for that monster hours ago then you can easily miss them. Short and sweet avoids this. Alternatively, there is the visual novel thing of highlighting or preventing fast-forwarding of text you've never seen before, something I've found myself wishing for in other text-heavy games not made in VN engines. >Well any rewrite carried out by me would be far worse, It's good to know one's limits, I suppose, but I would definitely read an alternative take along the lines you detailed. >>3439 >I'm used to putting stuff up—a real (You)-whore, me—but it was more the absurdity of putting an imageboard post through proper cycles of revision, editing, and proofing that struck me as a little too much. But I also think that if something's worth doing then it's worth over-doing. ok Orilise It's not strange in my view. I've put effort into my posts here too, with perhaps less justification - at least your story could be read as an erotic work on its own, posted to AO3 or Literotica or wherever, while no one is going to preserve my mechanics rambling unless as part of preserving this very thread. >For example, adding a cute little leather choker with a single, discreet O-ring to the commander's portrait and town sprite gives us something which those outside the party wouldn't pay much mind to but which has clear and definite meaning to those inside it: She's only our commander when it suits us, and when not? She's our pet. fffff hotttt >This is very important, because playing it in certain ways turns the story from cuckqueaning into more... bisexual cuckoldry? I guess what I'm saying is that if the fallen commander spends a significant chunk of time busy between the other girls' legs then it feels almost more like they've stolen her from him, you know? I've read stories of girls stealing girls from men, and I won't go into detail out of respect for board rules, but this doesn't feel like that to me. For one thing, there's the base fact that whatever services the anchor is providing the commander, he's still got to do those, just as he must help the other girls. Everyone has their duties. The anchor was not going to be fucking the commander the whole trip anyway. And the fact that the commander might be taking on some extra duties to the other girls doesn't take her away from him, nor does it reflect badly on his sexual prowess, desirability, and so on. If nothing of the anchor's is being taken or diminished, then we're left with what, a nice girl-on-girl show for him? That's no theft; that's a gift. It counts as a service she's providing to him. Better still, no-one said he can't enjoy a third girl while he watches, especially if that girl has the previously mentioned kink for being used while the man's attention is elsewhere. Or alternatively that he can't headpat, caress, grope, and/or fuck her a bit while she's down there. >>3443 I've spoken to men about sharing partners before, and while not universal, there seemed a consensus that while another man fucking your woman is threatening by default, another woman has to work at it to make the man feel like his place is not secure. It's not a very gender-equality attitude, but oh well. There's probably some deep-rooted evopsych stuff going on there; the most obvious angle is that girls can't impregnate. Anyway, I guess the men's feelings on the matter aren't everything, but I think they are important. I may be sympathetic to this because it sorta mirrors my own feelings - I like women, but I do not like women the same way, I do not get the same thing out of it. The touch of a woman cannot replace the touch of my man, and not just because his hands are bigger and stronger and slightly rougher and... I'm going to jump him when he gets home. Maybe I'll tell him the Internet made me do it. >I don’t think it would be very hard to establish that, though. One way would be that the anchor, noticing that his wife is definitely aroused by being teased/cucked, could help her down her path. Maybe after some gentle ribbing during a joining, he brings it up during/after their own lovemaking at the inn. He leans in and whispers into her ear that he noticed she likes it when the other girls take charge, maybe asks how she would feel if it was one of them underneath him and she was relegated to watching, getting to clean up if she’s lucky. Maybe he could nudge her into a submissive role, suggesting that she start servicing the other girls when they ask, or he could ask them to start being more dominant with her. It would all have to come from a place of love, he loves her and he sees that she likes this and he’s going to help her realize her place is on her back underneath another woman watching her take his dick. I started this paragraph from an academic perspective and now I’m over here breathing heavily and in need of a cool shower, thanks for that anon. Yup. If there are certain ways we could write it that seem like cuckoldry or monopolizing the quean then just don't write it those ways, I'd say. Maybe the anchor is also dominant and, in asserting possession of the commander, says she should put her mouth on whatever he tells her to. Maybe he agrees that commander is being too clingy and it's impinging on her duties. Or just write him as enjoying it and leave it at that? >It would also help to have some player choice moments where if you embrace/reject serving the other girls directly could impact what your husband is into and what events occur. I don’t want to squick out the gals who aren’t into touching the vixen. Yeah, it's a good point. Not every woman into cuckqueaning is really all that bisexual. It may seem absurd if they make exceptions for licking pussy juice off hubby's cock, but it's how they feel! Sexuality is complicated. >>3453 > Which leads me to an attempt at squaring circles: Our party-vixens' pussies, being for the pleasure and recreation of our quean-commander's man, are important. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine a certain type of cuckquean who, in wanting a vixen best able to please her man, assists that vixen with massage, grooming, and so forth, then enjoys watching that vixen in action with the feeling of a job well done. Why wouldn't our belted quean-commander, likewise, take a strong and specific interest in ensuring that the vixens are well looked after downstairs? Why wouldn't the vixens expect her to, as a matter of course? It's natural to want the women your man fucks to be happy and relaxed, so it's not strange at all for a quean adjusted to this mode to employ her tongue when it's called for. In fact, it'd be a matter of pride! Not that anon, but this seems like one good angle to me. >Aftercare can be hot as fuck, as much a part of the main event psychologically speaking as the wet and sticky part. I think that the key is not to conceptualize it as a departure lounge from kinkspace, but as a way of integrating and reinforcing what's changed and/or what's stayed the same, even of celebrating the overall dynamic. As far as I'm concerned, being allowed to perform slow, loving, worshipful cleanup fellatio in between loving murmurs and headpats is a form of aftercare. Yes this. And some people are into the dynamics of the whole thing, you know? Aftercare affects those. >>3456 >What if at some point the quean comes to the conclusion that her husband’s cum is hers by right, and as it’s his right to deposit it in whosoever he wishes, it’s her right to go and retrieve it. She naturally starts going to retrieve her rightful cum from the various vixen orifices it happens to have been deposited in. Hilarious. Maybe a bit silly for the general tone in most stuff so far, but maybe if the Labyrinth is doing funny things to your head it could be a way this could go... >>3508 >Oh! I personally love RPGs and weird concept stuff the most, but I have some map autism under my belt too - if you haven’t played them already, may I suggest Alicesoft’s Daiteikoku and Sengoku Rance? The former was never fully translated, but I loved what I did play of it. Also, Rance’s Sill a cute. Oh... I'm sorry but since it was mentioned I have to discommend Sengoku Rance, in part because of how cutie Sill is gratuitously mistreated in return for her loving devotion. It was a DNF for me. Rance is an over-the-top asshole and I cringe whenever he shows up and his stupid theme music plays, so that makes it pretty difficult to get invested, but the final straw was when he uncharacteristically refused to rape some conquered women, because they had muscles. Sorry Rance, you don't get to be an asshole to sweet Sill and have shit taste. GTFO my hard drive, the decent strategy gameplay isn't worth putting up with ya. >>3458 Chesterton's Fence is a thing, sure enough, and so is hubris. The argument against them is so basic that I'm not sure it has a real name - it's the simple fact that it's hard to prove a negative, so the burden of proof is on the assertion that there is a benefit. In the realm of debate this is an extremely strong principle, but even in the material world it's very difficult to have perfect knowledge of anything. There just isn't one guiding principle to rule them all! We just have to do the best we can, gauge the likely consequences of being wrong, and maybe start our experiments small-scale instead of world-wide. >>3451 >I wrote up this entire reply but me, being an idiot, accidentally closed it without saving it. I cried a little. This is one reason I often compose in a separate text editor, but I'm also going to recommend a browser add-on for those who don't: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/textarea-cache/ I guess I'll link the Chrome version too, even though the overwhelming dominance of Chrome is really not a good thing: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/textarea-cache/chpphekfimlabghbdankokcohcmnbmab
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>>3612 The story elements you mention were original; if it wasn't clear what they were and what they did then that's on me rather than you. Didn't expect the potions to come off as drug-like either. Interesting. >to "demur" is to object or hesitate You're... absolutely right. Huh. I've been carrying around the wrong definition of that word my whole life; thought it meant "to respectfully comply with or obey an order". Perhaps I got that idea because it sounds like "demure", though the two words have different roots. >I wonder if Leta's role gives her special insight/empathy, or if this is mundane intuition and inference. Could be either. I left it a touch ambiguous on purpose, at the risk of it coming off as head-hopping. You caught me. >A taste of what it means to master the Labyrinth, perhaps? Perhaps. The story was testing out the setting's main operating principle, and I can see from these two pieces of kind feedback so far that it remains safely un-sussed, though I can also see that some of the other details I expected readers to pick up on didn't get noticed. >Can I lick my free will off your balls? You didn't have to tell us that. You didn't have to tell us that, but you did, and now it's burned into my brain as well. Was it worth it? I hope it was worth it for you, because it wasn't worth it for me. >I had a similar thought about "Commander" (or "Supervisor" which our author seems to use for the same role). Some more neutral term might be ideal. Unfortunately most terms for an organizing role carry some connotation of authority, including my first thought of "Coordinator". "Commander" is Leta's job/class (the others we see being Sweeper, Phylacter, Artificer, and Anchor), while "Supervisor" is the position she took on during this particular joining (the others being Source, Sink, and Switch). I chose the latter because it was alliteratively convenient, but evidently it's also confusing. >I would definitely read an alternative take along the lines you detailed. I would as well. >fffff hotttt It is. Glad to see that idea worked. >I guess the men's feelings on the matter aren't everything, but I think they are important. Yes—this is why I try and account for them rather than assuming they're as uncomplicated and legible as the popular culture would have us believe. Even if they are that, I think it's a good idea to check your structural workings to make sure they come off the same to an audience as they do to you. >Rance is an over-the-top asshole and I cringe whenever he shows up and his stupid theme music plays Why would you drag the German Democratic Republic's national anthem into this? (I'm serious: Listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIh1eOw0zV8 and keep your ear on the vocal line.) But in seriousness, I took Rance as a Flashman-like character—he's so incredibly, almost comically, terrible that you're left wondering how he'll manage to top himself next. That he's the Hero in a parody world that runs on fantasy RPG rules only adds to the general atmosphere of disbelief. Poor Sill. She's too cute. >he uncharacteristically refused to rape some conquered women, because they had muscles Were those the blacksmiths? It's been a long time since I played, but IIRC they were wearing full-body smocks and protective masks, so Rance assumed they were the usual muscle-bound men one finds doing the blacksmithing and stormed off in search of something more rapeable. Joke was on him because the smocks came off and his sword(!) took the sex scene instead. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. I didn't finish the game either, mind. >>3565 >Would eating that food feel similar to the experience of a game developer, watching the beautiful edges of their game be sanded off to created a homogeneous experience that can be better inserted into the anus of game reviewers and the mathematically average consumer? This is not how I expected that paragraph to terminate, though as a matter of procedure I agree that anything destined for insertion into anyone's anus must be as well-sanded as that sentence and now I am confused and angry in ways I cannot understand. God damn. >in the style of 6 I was studying VI's music the other week. I still remember the first time I saw those Mode 7 opening credits and heard Tera's theme. They did so much with so little. But if it's Square's pixel games you want more of, have you tried Octopath Traveller? It had some structural weaknesses that I mention in a post somewhere above, but at heart it's both a love letter to that era and a meditation on how it might be surpassed. >I do wish that regular game devs made H games more often, but I understand it can poison your ability to market your non H games once you hit the X rated stuff. There are definitely some very solid H games out there with good gameplay and H content, but there are far more glorified visual novels or literal visual novels with no gameplay to speak of. There's the poisoning, yeah, but the fact is that most commercial H-games made minuscule amounts of money, save the one or two that won the lottery. Not worth it. It's a very poor field, and very few studios manage to stay ahead of the low-budget trap for any amount of time. Now that mainstream distribution channels are opening up to them, that might get better, but I can't see any but a very special breed looking to enter that market. >TLS brings back those same feelings, it regularly makes me pressed in my power level in ways that are uncomfortable, but I ultimately find it worth pushing through that discomfort to enjoy the game. It's insights like this that make me glad I asked.
>>3615 >The story elements you mention were original; if it wasn't clear what they were and what they did then that's on me rather than you. Well, like I said, it was understandable. It's clear what redglass does, and from etymology and context I guess a phylacter is an alchemist and a sweeper is a sort of scout? I wasn't sure about the sexual position role names though. >You didn't have to tell us that. You didn't have to tell us that, but you did, and now it's burned into my brain as well. I'm sorry anon. I didn't actually have a choice. You see, I wasn't allowed to lick my free will back up from master's balls. ;c >Were those the blacksmiths? It's been a long time since I played, but IIRC they were wearing full-body smocks and protective masks, so Rance assumed they were the usual muscle-bound men one finds doing the blacksmithing and stormed off in search of something more rapeable. Joke was on him because the smocks came off and his sword(!) took the sex scene instead. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. They were blacksmiths and/or gunsmiths - it was after I conquered the first group I encountered with guns, with a leader who looked kinda... Minecraft-ish instead of human-shaped? Hard to describe. Unfortunately, the way I remember it, he knew the smiths were girls and it really was just shit taste. In Sengoku Rance you got a significant bonus of some kind for raping new girls so I was probably also ticked at missing out on that. I remember feeling like there were a lot of weird artificial and arbitrary feeling restrictions in the gameplay. Like I said, it wasn't one thing that made me quit, but more a case of final straws. >>3565 >TLS brings back those same feelings, it regularly makes me pressed in my power level in ways that are uncomfortable, but I ultimately find it worth pushing through that discomfort to enjoy the game. I'm glad you are finding it worthwhile! Some lurking in the community tells me that cheating is somewhat commonplace and doesn't seem to get people shamed by the player base or the dev. It seems like for people who want to simplify investing there's save-editing your ProN variable (still some decisions to be made, but not spreadsheet tier) and for combat there's the "story mode" modded version. >>3455 (checked) I tried Wife Quest on PC. It's actually a quite good little platformer! It's in that weird zone where it's not explicit enough with nudity and kink to play with your hand in your pants (although imagination could find a way) - it probably wouldn't be welcomed in spaces that are exclusively dedicated to h-games like F95 or whatever - but it's also way too obviously fetish fuel to let just any normie see you playing it. Like, you unlock animated gallery entries with all the monstergirls, but they're all clothed, but the titties really be swaying - or else it's the sprite animations of our plucky heroine beating up the monstergirl. That kind of thing. Pic related, it's the gallery entry for a minor enemy I'm weirdly fond of. Dat thigh gap. Pretty good music though. The game is challenging, but usually fair. I'm kind of a scrub but I'm able to learn the patterns and persevere thanks to rather minor penalties for eating shit while practising. Pro tip for anyone thinking about trying it - don't pull your hair out backtracking and getting every collectible on your first run, because you'll unlock "magic mode" and it's easier then. Also your shield can reflect a lot of damage sources you might not expect, such as a direct charge from a unicorn. I did have to use a guide to 100% collectibles; this one is pretty good, and also humorous: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2795279798 In terms of writing, there's not a lot of it, but I do find it heartwarming that your hubby is faithful to you throughout, even when he could apparently have his pick of some very cute and powerful ladies who probably would accustom him to a lifestyle of never tilling the soil again and that our heroine places the blame squarely on the husband-stealing whores and not on hubby for getting stolen. But I find it pussywarming that most every girl is just a bit cuter than our heroine, most of them have a more impressive figure, and every single last one wants to jump hubby's bones, including our apparent ally the dwarf girl, who keeps telling us not to be so jealous even as she sells us ever more powerful and useful gear. After all, none of these women want to hurt your husband, you know? They just want to take him to some nice places like the forest, the hot springs, a moonlit balcony... and show him a really good time over and over and over...
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>>3665 >Wife Quest on PC You - and that batgirl... and that it's on sale right now, but let's say it was mainly you - have convinced me to try it. Thanks for the mini-review anon.
Apropos of nothing, I shall let this thread know that during my ongoing noodling on this concept, I've fallen in love with Etrian Odyssey IV's soundtrack. The parts of II and III's OST I listened to seemed a little derivative of I's—not a bad thing—but IV's music has this intoxicating surge of new interest and energy. Perhaps the move to the 3DS and its audio capabilities prompted Yuzo Koshiro to come at things from a different angle? I don't know if the game itself plays terribly differently to its predecessors, but had I the time and a 3DS, I might be tempted to check. I mean, just listen to these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KsUqgU9BC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCZjnuS6ESc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTU-jTmWr-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Ev1K0RX0k I did think the FOE theme - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRe_CBZaVsE - was a bit too jazzy and upbeat. But I've probably not given it a fair shake because I'll always prefer the creeping dread of the original FOE theme's stark bass ostinato and desperate climax-response, which incidentally struts across the stage wearing a top hat and spangly tailcoat at 0:54 and 1:40 in IV's theme; Koshiro you cheeky bastard. It's still a good piece, even if it does make me imagine that goddamned deer dolled up in a bow-tie and threatening to break out into a tap routine.
I have to say, this is absolutely my favorite thread and I'm glad this little discussion got so much traction, but the posts are also so girthy that it's sometimes hard for me to come up with the energy to reply. I just want you to all know you're wonderful and I appreciate all the great work you've done in writing everything up.
>>3685 I feel the same. It's a shame that there's nor more time and vitality to go around, but that's life innit?
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>>3612 >Alternatively, there is the visual novel thing of highlighting or preventing fast-forwarding of text you've never seen before, something I've found myself wishing for in other text-heavy games not made in VN engines. I don't normally play VNs but this sounds like a solid option. Now I'm going to find myself wishing for a similar function. Why can't I get change notes for dialog? >I've spoken to men about sharing partners before, and while not universal, there seemed a consensus that while another man fucking your woman is threatening by default, another woman has to work at it to make the man feel like his place is not secure. It's not a very gender-equality attitude, but oh well. Not sure if my take on this is really productive, and it's probably overly pedantic, but I've always felt a little weird about strict gender equality. Men and women are different. At the minimum level there are medical differences, for instance the different heart attack symptoms for men and women. Men and women are also socialized differently, and I feel like in my experience they also have different needs. I'm very in favor of treating people similarly, but I also worry sometimes if people strive too hard to treat everyone the same when what they need is to be treated differently. Something I read somewhere on the topic of cheating is guys seem to care more about if their partner had sex with someone else (this piece didn't consider lesbian infidelity, but I would expect intersectionality there), while women care more about whether or not he's in love with the other woman. Men and women seem to agree that cheating is bad, but their parameters for evaluating the severity of cheating are generally different. To tie this back to cuckquean, I think this means one needs to keep those differences in mind when engaging in cuckquean play. I recognize people aren't generalities, they are radical individuals, everyone is different and approaches CQ differently after all, but I think knowing that my man is going to have different feelings about the same situations (and that it's normal and not a problem) would help me be more sensitive to his needs. Being able to stop and tell myself "men and women are different" when men do things I don't understand was a stepping stone to my eventual self-directed manta of "people are different from each other." This was very meandering, I guess my point is that since people are different from each other, they have different needs, and I aim to treat people with equity these days instead of treating them equally in an effort to meet those needs. And I wish to be treated to a nice view of a cute guy I like pumping another woman full of cum. With audio. Please. >Hilarious. Maybe a bit silly for the general tone in most stuff so far, but maybe if the Labyrinth is doing funny things to your head it could be a way this could go... I like humor in my sex, and I love mind control/corruption themes. I don't want to throw off the vibe by making things too silly, but the way logic twists as a corrupted character rationalizes their new desires and behaviors is part of the joy of corruption for me. Maybe they don't have to be as absurd and on the nose as this, >>3384 already did something similar to this in "She was no longer merely enduring the sex as a necessary joining of an anchor and the girls on his ring: she was appreciating it, as though it were a favourite dish or song! Why was she smiling? No woman in her position should!" It just needs to go one step further, to the " Yet, after all why not? Why shouldn't I keep it? It's mine! My own, my precious." moment that shows the corruption has really started to take root. >>3615 >The story elements you mention were original; if it wasn't clear what they were and what they did then that's on me rather than you. For me, I think an initial lack of explicit explanation of things improves my immersion in the story. It leads me to wonder what those things are and makes me want to keep reading to find out. It can be pretentious sometimes, but it has a similar impact on me as in media res. Starting in a place where the characters get what is going on and I have to bring myself up to speed is a good way to get me on the hook. That said, I'm a pretty critical reader, so if a story doesn't eventually deliver on the promise of the mystery with more information, veiled or otherwise, then that can sour me on a story too. >I would as well. I can say I don't feel up to an alt version of your story, but maybe I could muster the will to write a story of another party in the same setting with a different dynamic. Fanfic of your story, in a way. So be careful what you wish for! >But if it's Square's pixel games you want more of, have you tried Octopath Traveller? It had some structural weaknesses that I mention in a post somewhere above, but at heart it's both a love letter to that era and a meditation on how it might be surpassed. I have seen Octopath Traveller as well as the Live a Live remake and I find the HD 2D style very compelling. I haven't played either, but they look interesting and I've added them to my backlog of games to play someday. What I've seen of them also makes me want an HD 2D remake of Romancing SaGa 2 or 3. Maybe if the new remake of minstrel song goes well they'll consider it? Or maybe they'll just make 3D versions and I’ll be disappointed, who knows? >>3665 >It seems like for people who want to simplify investing there's save-editing your ProN variable (still some decisions to be made, but not spreadsheet tier) and for combat there's the "story mode" modded version. I'm not opposed to easy modes, but cheating on a first run of a game feels weird to me and can sometimes ruin the fun a little. To use an example from TSL, there's a house relatively early on filled with very strong spiders. I avoided this house at first, thinking myself underleveled. Later on, though, I was close to leaving the area and still found the spiders hard, so I had a tense time navigating through while trying to avoid combat in an effort to get the loot inside without dying. If I had cheated my level super high, I wouldn't have had that challenging and enjoyable experience and I don't think it would have been as salient. Maybe after I finish a playthrough I'll try out a cheatier one to really explore the options the game has.
>>3362 Hm, petrification. Imagine being turned partway to stone by a mischievous medusa, unable to move, unable to soothe the molten core between your statuesque legs, yet still able to watch her turn her attentions to your man (part of him is a hardening pillar too). >>3666 (checked, succubified) You're welcome miss demoness. Let us know how you like it? >>3714 >I like humor in my sex, and I love mind control/corruption themes. I don't want to throw off the vibe by making things too silly, but the way logic twists as a corrupted character rationalizes their new desires and behaviors is part of the joy of corruption for me. hell yeah sister high five >I'm not opposed to easy modes, but cheating on a first run of a game feels weird to me and can sometimes ruin the fun a little. Oh definitely. I just think it's nice to have the option for people who get into it but find that one part of the game just isn't working for them, like the RPG Maker combat or the investment spreadsheets. >I don't normally play VNs but this sounds like a solid option. Now I'm going to find myself wishing for a similar function. Why can't I get change notes for dialog? I guess technically if you could get all the dialogue in text file form you could use a comparison tool like WinMerge to see changes. Some game engines can export all their text, or the text is all lying around in some readable format like JSON. >Something I read somewhere on the topic of cheating is guys seem to care more about if their partner had sex with someone else (this piece didn't consider lesbian infidelity, but I would expect intersectionality there), while women care more about whether or not he's in love with the other woman. Yet again it's tempting to tell an evopsych just-so story, in which men care about the possibility of their child not being theirs, whereas women care about their provider figure's resources being split multiple ways instead of all going to her own offspring. It's the modern day though, and I sort of feel like it might be nice to share the child-rearing and financial load with some sister-wives.
>>3716 Is it weird that the part of that gif I noticed the most was the snek's cute little belt pouch? That, and that they're wearing similar clothing, had me imagine that the snek's an adventurer too and they're actually traveling together. I want to be friends with monstergirls so bad.
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>>3714 >To tie this back to cuckquean, I think this means one needs to keep those differences in mind when engaging in cuckquean play. I recognize people aren't generalities, they are radical individuals, everyone is different and approaches CQ differently after all, but I think knowing that my man is going to have different feelings about the same situations (and that it's normal and not a problem) would help me be more sensitive to his needs. The gap between the sexes is as old as our species, maybe older, and I think that acknowledging its existence is definitely a good start in trying to avoid some of the misery it can cause. As cuckqueaning goes, the old "lots of communication" chestnut is sometimes over-applied or shoved in as a substitute where a person giving sexual advice doesn't have anything better to say, but it's really true here. Of course, it requires that the people communicating know their own minds, know how to and are willing to communicate their minds, can update their models of the other's mind, are willing to extend good faith to the other when they get it wrong, have enough external knowledge to frame the communication sensibly and so on... but hey, still gotta try! People might not be generalities, but generalities form for a reason, and starting from them as a shared understanding can help, even and especially when individuals turn out to be different from them. This is why I find what little cuckquean terminology we have so damn useful, because terminology helps condense bundles of more complex concepts down and gives them handles that help us talk about them. >This was very meandering, I guess my point is that since people are different from each other, they have different needs, and I aim to treat people with equity these days instead of treating them equally in an effort to meet those needs. And I wish to be treated to a nice view of a cute guy I like pumping another woman full of cum. With audio. Please. The man I love not pumping several other women full of his cum is incompatible with my human flourishing. >I like humor in my sex, and I love mind control/corruption themes. hell yeah I tend to lean more towards corruption less as someone being turned into something else and more as that person being freed into what they were always supposed to be. But given how mind-bending and alteration of self works, there's no way to tell whether that's truly happened or whether that's just what the brainwashing wants them to think, eh? I recall another story where it wasn't clear whether the drugging and brainwashing the main girl went through was real or placebo, but the enthusiastically subby sex it triggered was definitely very real. >It just needs to go one step further, to the " Yet, after all why not? Why shouldn't I keep it? It's mine! My own, my precious." moment that shows the corruption has really started to take root. That was a little bit of what this later section: >and second, that she needed him to cum not only in Yasu, but later in Eir, in Sofi, in her, and in as many others as the fates saw fit to put beneath him. She didn’t understand why, didn’t need to: she’d always had this nameless hunger inside her. was for, but given that it's right after a sincere profession of love it's probably difficult to read as anything other than reliable narration. >I think an initial lack of explicit explanation of things improves my immersion in the story. It leads me to wonder what those things are and makes me want to keep reading to find out. It can be pretentious sometimes I loathe stories that immediately and indiscriminately sling made-up terminology around to make their world-building seem more interesting than it is. Because this story had to be a snapshot and because I wanted to test whether the behind-the-scenes rigging could produce interesting effects, I had to throw some terms around without ever explaining them, but eh. >maybe I could muster the will to write a story of another party in the same setting with a different dynamic. Fanfic of your story, in a way. So be careful what you wish for! I wish indiscriminately and without regard for consequence. If anything, my story is fanfic of the same nonexistent game that your story would be. >Romancing SaGa I've never played any of them and don't know 'em, but... >Romancing SaGa is a role-playing video game where the player takes on the role of eight different protagonists, playing through their narratives and an overarching story in a nonlinear style. Huh! Sounds a little like Octopath owes a lot to them. If anything, the synopsis sounds like it actually avoids some of the problems Octopath had in how it handled the multi-protagonist system. >>3716 >Let us know how you like it? I found it super cute and funny and I really enjoyed all the naughty 'queany flavour (that was way more obvious yet lightly handled than I expected) but boy howdy did I have issues with how the lava area was put together. In spite of its great points, the game had some serious rough edges to it; mostly they were charming but parts of the level and enemy design felt like the creators' reach had badly exceeded their grasp. I am yet to finish it, but given how cute the art is I think I'd be happy to go through again and try to collect everything. And THANK YOU for telling us about the Magic Mode part; it saved me a lot of trouble trying to get everything on my first playthrough.
Oh yeah, also: >>3716 >Imagine being turned partway to stone by a mischievous medusa, unable to move, unable to soothe the molten core between your statuesque legs, yet still able to watch her turn her attentions to your man (part of him is a hardening pillar too). Congrats Anon, this is the first time I think I've ever felt I understood the petrification fetish.
>>3718 It does stand out from the rest of the picture, coloration-wise. Also, maybe they are buddies, considering the girl seems to be a recurring OC in situations like the pics attached to >>3731 >>3730 >the old "lots of communication" chestnut is sometimes over-applied or shoved in as a substitute where a person giving sexual advice doesn't have anything better to say, but it's really true here. Of course, it requires that the people communicating know their own minds, know how to and are willing to communicate their minds, can update their models of the other's mind, are willing to extend good faith to the other when they get it wrong, have enough external knowledge to frame the communication sensibly and so on... but hey, still gotta try! People might not be generalities, but generalities form for a reason, and starting from them as a shared understanding can help, even and especially when individuals turn out to be different from them. This is why I find what little cuckquean terminology we have so damn useful, because terminology helps condense bundles of more complex concepts down and gives them handles that help us talk about them. This is wisdom and helps clarify some of my own thoughts on such matters, thank you. >boy howdy did I have issues with how the lava area was put together Definitely my least favorite area too, but at least the monstergirls remain cute. Maybe the hellwans don't belong there though; they seem to get overheated after a few fireballs! >>3731 Haha, you're welcome, anon. I definitely think part of it is that it's a form of bondage, perhaps an extreme form since you're transformed into a mere object, which is also a submissive power play angle. (And why wouldn't she then fuck your man right in front of the statue of you? You're just a thing. It'd be like being embarrassed to fuck in front of your anime figurine or stuffed animal.) #NotAllKinks but quite a lot of kinks come back to power, when you think about them. There's probably some less quean-adjacent angles on petrification too, like how statues are for looking at and you don't get to run away and hide even if you were frozen with your tits out and such. But maybe if you were in the middle of touching yourself while watching your man with the medusa, and then she froze you in that position on purpose, either because it's amusing or because you didn't have permission to finish yourself off?
>>3732 >at least the monstergirls remain cute The game absolutely drips with adorability. My personal favourite so far has been the BEEG oni/goblin/troll/whatever girl in the underground area; she seems like she'd be a chill, fluffy type when she's not swinging that log-club at terrifying speed. >There's probably some less quean-adjacent angles on petrification too When I've previously seen the petrification fetish in action it was always presented as pure transformation fetish, which always leaves me bemused – huh? Does... anything else happen? Did the intended audience already get off? – or the capstone of bad-end/total destruction/snuff scenarios, which I don't like at all. I mean, when someone's turned to stone and then the story ends then you tend to assume they're dead or irreversibly locked in, right? But, the playful sneks above with their reversible petrification made me curious about whether it could be presented in a way I'd find fun. A touch of tag-searching yielded this sequence by an artist called Nominu (images spoiled because off-topic) and yeah, I'm seeing the appeal of how it wraps together bondage, orgasm denial, objectification, exhibitionism, total power exchange, secret-keeping, and so on. I don't think that it hits 100% for me – I still perceive parts that're clearly aimed at a different, specific audience – but yeah, I can see how it's kinda fun! I envision scenarios where a petrification-lover has her husband/bf petrify her in various positions and then use her as decoration or furniture, for example. Imagine being used as the ottoman he fucks a vixen over, or even as some kind of bondage appliance (as long as there's no damage e.g. anchors sunk into the stone 'flesh'; I find that idea deeply distressing and squicky as hell). Maybe someone might crave longer-term, reversible petrification as a kind of holiday from the world, as happens to Hina in the attached pictures? I kind of feel like a fetish tourist though, if that phrase makes sense, because I'm not actually getting any sexual charge off the statue or TF part itself. Oh well, at least now I know it's not all scary snuff-adjacent stuff!
>>3733 ...however, the more I look through Nominu's Twitter timeline (@NominuArt) the more I'm convinced that a) I am indeed a fetish tourist on that turf and b) the elements that're bemusing and/or deeply squicky to me are very much the norm.
>>3735 Also, check out Hina's roommate here and tell me she isn't total vixen material to someone. What? I don't have a one-track mind, you have a one-track mind!
>>3733 >I kind of feel like a fetish tourist though, if that phrase makes sense, because I'm not actually getting any sexual charge off the statue or TF part itself. Well, that part is the objectification part, so I'm not sure where the disconnect is, but oh well. I think the important takeaway is that a hot snek vixen should petrify a quean so she can tell hubby that according to lamia law it's not cheating if the other woman is a statue. Yes, even if the statue retains awareness and can watch the whole time, and even if you aim the occasional spray of male glaze at the statue. >>3838 Black Souls 2, right? It's definitely elaborate to create a whole (albeit rotten) world for the man to run around in impregnating other women who are secretly other cosmic horrors like yourself but personally I would not want my man to have to wade thru oceans of blood and death and watch his loved ones succumb to madness and die repeatedly, all just to drive home the point that he always returns to me in the end, even if those other girls get to use him for a while. Is that queany? ...I guess so, in a corrupted soulslike sort of way.
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>>3856 >I'm not sure where the disconnect is tl;dr I think I enjoy the parts that don't actually need petrification to be present, whereas it seems like the petrification/TF lovers are there for the petrification first and the rest second. To be clear, this isn't to denigrate the fetish, just explain what I noticed and inappropriately over-share my own sexual response to things. Please forgive inaccuracy; I'm not familiar with the full TF corpus. What I meant was that it seemed to me that a lot of TF art focuses pretty exclusively on the T part. A lot of loving, often Warner-esque detail is put into showing the stages of the transformation, with mid-stages including the transformee's surprise or struggle if it's involuntary, and then once the transformation is complete the depiction stops, so we assume the audience got what they wanted from the piece. Sometimes there'll be some framing dialogue to establish who is doing the transforming at the start, and something to the effect of "now you are transformed and cannot change back on your own, I shall leave you like this" at the end (many pieces like to imply or outright depict the transformation as permanent), but little more. I also noticed that longer-form non-statue pieces tend to be interested in the transformee's use as the object rather than their status as a person locked into the object's form. Their use as a functional thing reinforces and finalizes their having been transformed and changed into the object's essential nature, if that makes sense. The same pattern holds for statue transformation works too, in that the statue is often depicted standing "alone" and abandoned, which when you think about it is what statues "do". Add to this works that depict those statues being broken (which thanks to plenty of images of old statues is part of our idea of "statueness") or overgrown, and you see where I might start to draw a pattern. So for me, the disconnect comes from what I perceive as the transformation and full-becoming-ness being the main source of stimulation. How else can I explain a crowd of happy, satisfied replies beneath a sequence of images showing only a surprised woman turning into a statue and little else? How can I explain the same thing, but with a sequence showing a different woman (or man, sometimes) turning into a lamp? Or, to use a real example I saw when I was exploring Nominu's timeline, a sequence showing a catboy being turned into a rock candy statue, snapped limb from limb, and then placed outside a house during Halloween for children to hammer-smash pieces from and consume? These all seem like subgenres of the same root fetish, yet I'm here enjoying a very particular aspect of some work that comes off almost as mere extra detail, which is why I feel like a tourist on the TF peoples' turf. >a hot snek vixen should petrify a quean so she can tell hubby that according to lamia law it's not cheating if the other woman is a statue. Yes, even if the statue retains awareness and can watch the whole time, and even if you aim the occasional spray of male glaze at the statue. Have the copulation take place atop the quean-statue such that some of hubby's issue drips onto it post-creampie and you've got yourself a deal. >Black Souls 2 I looked it up a little bit; so that's where this fucking cat I kept seeing around is from! Is it worth putting aside time to play?
>>3858 > Is it worth putting aside time to play? It's worth playing both 1 and 2, yes. Expect 2 especially to keep you busy longer than you'd think.
>>3862 Would skipping straight to 2 be subpar? If you could only play one of them, which would it be?
>>3864 >If you could only play one of them, which would it be? 2, but you're going to miss a lot of important context if you don't play 1 first.
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>I think I enjoy the parts that don't actually need petrification to be present, whereas it seems like the petrification/TF lovers are there for the petrification first and the rest second. That makes sense. I think for you it can be like a fun spice for the main dish. Like how some people enjoy a bit of hot pepper in their food, and other people enjoy just straight-up eating a capsicum. I never intended to say anything like cuckqueans and petrification fetishists share the same roots and should have broad overlap (especially if it's an exclusively compersion-driven quean without submission or humiliation components) but it's nice to expand one's fetish palate/horizons, if that makes sense. >A lot of loving, often Warner-esque detail Warner? >I looked it up a little bit; so that's where this fucking cat I kept seeing around is from! That is certainly the Cheshire from Black Souls 2; the collar is a giveaway. I must point out that the design is borrowing unsubtly from Monster Girl Encyclopedia, and both those works are directly inspired by Disney's version, so not every cat that looks like that may be from Black Souls 2 specifically. >Is it worth putting aside time to play? Big "it depends" on that one, I feel. It must be said that both games have a mostly-silent male protagonist who spend most of his time adventuring solo, and the cuckqueaning elements are minor, though definitely present at times. Both games have a pretty grim and violent settings, with a large amount of (optional) rape and (less optional) consensual sex, as well as trace amounts of homosexuality with trap shotas (optional IIRC) and somewhat less trace amounts of lolicon (I think some required). There is some (optional) furry and significant amounts of (not optional) monstergirl content. Artwise, the scenes have a kind of sketchy style that I like but you might not, the girls frequently look a bit haunted, and the hero is kind of just some generic gray dude in appearance, narratively an undead (Dark Souls influence again). They're also RPG Maker games, albeit significantly customized and with somewhat tactical CTB combat. But it's neat how they managed to make a big world blending influences of fairy tales, Dark Souls, cosmic horror, and (mainly in 2) Alice in Wonderland. If you're only going to play one of them, I think it's better to play 1 just because 2 is so fucking huge, and both are games where it's somewhat of a puzzle how to get the more satisfying endings. With BS1 you get a self-contained experience and then know if you like the kind of thing the developer makes, which will help you decide if you want to set aside a hundred hours for 2 now that you'll get its references to 1. Most people do say 2 is the better game, though, and it was certainly more memorable and left me with more feels. There's also a prequel of sorts in the dev's other game, called something like "Red Hood's Woods", but it focuses on different kinks with no queaning at all, and has a rather thin dreamlike plot. It's not necessary to play before the others, even though its heroine is one of the few characters to reappear in both Black Souls games.
>>3868 >I never intended to say anything like cuckqueans and petrification fetishists share the same roots and should have broad overlap Of course. I didn't vomit all that uninvited analysis because I thought you were saying anything of the sort; I just got a bit, uh... excited. >Warner? As in the studio named after the brothers, once full of animators famous for their ability to churn out detailed, broad, expressive stuff at speed. Fond of visual gags involving bodily transformation and distortion, too. >That is certainly the Cheshire from Black Souls 2; the collar is a giveaway. Her design's killer, no pun intended; bet those cinnamon-roll curls would bounce adorably. She's from the Disney AiW Cheshire-via-MGE lineage for sure, but distinct enough to stand out on her own. Not a bad bit of ink at all, even after accounting for the automatic kemonomimi bonus. >Big "it depends" on that one, I feel. Thank you for taking the time to give us that breakdown, Anon. It convinced me to toddle off and buy the first one. I've just entered the little match girl's town after clearing out Hansel and Gretel from the Forest of Abandoned with a nice spear I accidentally sequence-broke(?) by stumbling off into the desert. I think the game's quite well-customized, and the battle system especially does a good job of being both quick enough and interesting enough. I chose the Thief, and having to find the rhythm of parries and counters is a little game in itself. I'm not a player of Soulslikes - a brief dalliance with Demon's Souls and Elden Ring aside - but I appreciated how they went out of their way to build the game around some of its design philosophy, but didn't take it so worshipfully that the Forest of Abandoned couldn't feel a little like satire. I was surprised that the way enemy mobs popped out of corners and from behind field objects managed to keep me alert. Still, it's a rare RPG Maker game that manages to create a sense of genuine interest in its environments, and Black Souls has already given me a few little exploration-thrills. But there are a couple of things I'm in two minds about. I love the run button for lowering tedium but also note it as a partial atmosphere-breaker. Save-scumming is so trivial that it undermines the die-and-lose-souls system they brought ove.. I've chosen to treat the save-anywhere system as a kind of optional difficulty reducer I can fall back on when I'm genuinely confused about what the game is telegraphing. It's clear that you're not supposed to use it that way since they also included other systems to bank souls, hoard them inside their found items, and so forth. I quite like the scribbly, haunted style of the character art, too, though I'll admit to feeling a little ambushed when my first full-screen CG event was that pushy green fairy suddenly pulling out my character's gross corpse-dick so she could level up. Is that a spoiler? I don't feel like that's a spoiler. So far there's enough intrigue and little enough friction that I'm still engaged, so here's hoping that it stays that way. >a hundred hours for 2 !!? ?!! !!!
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>>3872 >Of course. I didn't vomit all that uninvited analysis because I thought you were saying anything of the sort; I just got a bit, uh... excited. No worries. I think we're all on the same page here. It's interesting to discuss this stuff. >I've just entered the little match girl's town after clearing out Hansel and Gretel from the Forest of Abandoned with a nice spear I accidentally sequence-broke(?) Oof, you "cleared them out" with a spear huh? Maybe next cycle you can keep one or both alive, for the scenes if nothing else. As for sequence-breaking, I think there's not a clear enough sequence for anything to really count as a break, at least in the first game, plus you'll reset the cycle at least a few times anyway in pursuit of all endings. The little match girl is cute though, right? And you've probably met Dorothy by now. >I chose the Thief, and having to find the rhythm of parries and counters is a little game in itself. Thief is a reasonable choice. You can change your look later, and you'll eventually acquire every starting skill and many more besides, so classes stop mattering. >Save-scumming is so trivial that it undermines the die-and-lose-souls system I think you're just supposed to decide what feels fun to you. The devs know this isn't a real Souls game and it doesn't trivialize everything to save-scum. There's also the difficulty modifying statue thing near your home base. >that pushy green fairy suddenly pulling out my character's gross corpse-dick so she could level up. Is that a spoiler? Heh, no. So you don't like Leaf, even though she tells our protagonist to go out and fuck girls? She'll hang around near bonfires for a while after you find them and have something to say; maybe you'll like that role better. The Cheshire Cat fills that role in the second game, though they also have some roles they don't share, like being summonable in battle. We'll see what you think of Leaf in the end. >!!? Okay, to be fair, if you follow a walkthrough and keep the difficulty set low, you could probably shave 20-30 hours off that estimate for BS2, but it is long.
>>3875 >Oof, you "cleared them out" with a spear huh? Eh? I didn't have much choice; there was the warning white fog outside the house and sure enough, going inside lead me to battle, and... hang on, did I fuck something up? I figured I was going to see them when I spotted a trail of poisoned breadcrumbs, but what with their being corrupted healing items I figured that was merely foreshadowing of their being demonbeasts. How and why would I keep them alive? Maybe that'll be a question for this next cycle I'll apparently be embarking on. I'm having enough fun with this that I might consider actually doing that, assuming that cycling isn't somehow built into the gameplay. I can believe the game would put something like that into its mechanics. I've met Dorothy sure enough; she asked me to kill her other companions of which I've only found the cowardly lion who cost me a good chunk of my attack items trying to figure out how to hit. I don't know if I like her yet because there's been so little interaction, but the little match fujoshi girl is indeed pretty cute, though I've not seen much from her yet. I bought some of her "matches" but I figure there'll be consequences for choosing to use them... >You can change your look later, and you'll eventually acquire every starting skill and many more besides, so classes stop mattering. Yeah, I found the place where I can change my appearance as well as fix some sort of display bug by talking to a cute creature. I like how they brought across the idea that main combat skills come mainly from weapons rather than being wrapped into the character build itself; it makes the gameplay feel nice and agile. >The devs know this isn't a real Souls game That's one of the things I'm enjoying, actually - the game's just out to have a good time and doesn't get terribly hung up on any one detail in particular. By deciding to keep their attitude light, they've managed to make something that keeps my attention much better than if they'd tried to go full grimdark or otherwise be strictly faithful to the source material. >So you don't like Leaf, even though she tells our protagonist to go out and fuck girls? On the contrary, I like Leaf a lot so far. That like isn't based on anything in particular other than that I think she's cute and it's welcome relief to see a friendly face from time to time when I'm out in the world. She's so far proven useful in battle, too. Also, I appreciated her encouraging my character to slake his undead lusts, though I mostly just took it as an H-game flagging one of its features as part of the tutorial section. Speaking of, the way the game has ominpresent kill/rape options for every NPC interaction is interesting. More than being H-game convenience, it drives home the nature of the world they've built (assuming that it is worldbuilding and that those who assure me that men in general see this option hovering next to every woman they meet are not, in fact, correct). What is not correct is how some of these sex scenes were translated. I never knew how funny the definitive article could be! But in the end I'm still having fun and now that I have my second summonable character (spoiler related), I can feel the harem haze coming on already.
>>3892 Victoria a cute. Pic related, it's spoilers tho. >How and why would I keep them alive? How - remember the fairytale? If you deprive them of their lifeline, how will they live? Don't pick up any breadcrumbs. In fact, offer them food if they ask for it. There's another event with them later too. Why - you can get an h-scene with one or both of them, but if you're not interested in that, I think it might be required to save them at least once, to get their corresponding library book, which will be important later. Been too long though so I'm not sure on that. >Maybe that'll be a question for this next cycle I'll apparently be embarking on. I'm having enough fun with this that I might consider actually doing that, assuming that cycling isn't somehow built into the gameplay. Ah... yeah, you can start a new cycle and carry over most of your items and skills and stuff, just not companions. I'm not sure it's actually required unless you're trying to fill out the gallery, since you can't have a girl as both companion and prisoner. I think for the endings you can just reload to see them, if you save before any points of no return. Sorry, I thought the game made the cycle thing clear pretty early while you're exploring the home base area, but maybe that's only in 2, since it's unavoidable. >On the contrary, I like Leaf a lot so far. That like isn't based on anything in particular other than that I think she's cute and it's welcome relief to see a friendly face from time to time when I'm out in the world. Very true, though you may gather some friendly faces for your base at least. I think this is more Souls influence actually, having a companion waiting at the bonfire, or at your base, always welcoming despite everything. Like the Plain Doll in Bloodborne. I suspect it's not an accident that those characters are usually female, either; probably speaks to something in the male psyche. >Also, I appreciated her encouraging my character to slake his undead lusts, though I mostly just took it as an H-game flagging one of its features as part of the tutorial section. Oh, Leaf is very interested to see what you'll do. But as she tells you, anything is fine. You have complete freedom. And anyway, she's your biggest fan! >Speaking of, the way the game has omnipresent kill/rape options for every NPC interaction is interesting. More than being H-game convenience, it drives home the nature of the world they've built Indeed. On a meta note, it's also one way you know the game has to be resilient to sequence breaking, since you can just... kill any NPC. Even when it's a bad idea. Bit BioWare that way.
The more I play Black Souls, the more I come to like it. The atmosphere the game manages to wring out of the RPGMaker engine’s affordances is remarkable: Simultaneous dread mixed into twisted stabs of second-hand arousal that sweeps itchy tingles across my back and belly. I think the moment it clicked for me was after I fought the Observer on its River and visited Red Hood. The way her broken-down little house sat in the middle of the dark, impassable woods did something for me. I went in expecting a fight but all I found was her and her wolf, just existing. I didn’t expect her to do something as normal but abnormal as feeding her wolf when I woke her up and then telling me to come back when she wasn’t busy. And that was it: That was all that was at the end of the river, apart from the pickle-pee bird in a narrow clearing just to the north. Something about that context made the decision to buy her body feel different than I expected, the subsequent scene likewise (though I did find it confusing that the scene was written like a loli scene but she didn’t seem all that loli). There’s something intriguing about her; I suspect it might be worth it to save up and buy her outright. But after I came back, something had changed for me. Is it normal to settle into the idea that it’s perfectly natural for my character to feed his girls second-hand XP by having them fellate and/or bodyjob him? There’s something exciting about accepting it, a thrill in allowing my mind to play by that world’s rules. Likewise when I wandered into the expansive prison beneath the Sacred Forest to see if anything had changed; it hadn’t but perhaps I had, because for the first time I wondered why, in the game-world’s own terms, such a thing was here and why Leaf, giving her little tutorial-style spiel by the entrance, seemed so excited by the idea that it would be used. I had a sudden flash to an image of some unidentified girl blindfolded, chained face-down-ass-up to the floor, forcing choked sob-moans through her gag (and, incidentally, of being a little fairy girl sat on her upraised butt, cheekily holding either of her holes open with my feet to help the cause of those screams get that little bit more pleasure from the act) and all at once I felt the rainy, drab, dark, twisted-fairy-tale aesthetic of the game weave itself into that picture so thoroughly that it made my breath catch. I still don’t know for sure what the prison’s purpose is, but then I’m not going around hitting the rape or kill options either, and given the prison’s sheer size and what >>3925 has mentioned about prisoners I expect they’re related. The bosses, too, manage to create the kind of “oh shit!” moments that I hardly ever feel anymore; their introductions are punchy and the fights are wonderfully balanced such that you feel overwhelmed at first - being under-levelled is a very real possibility, as I found out from returning to the prostitute’s room in Rotten Burg’s brothel - but if you manage to hold on and improvise a strategy then victory feels very satisfying. >>3925 I normally don’t mind spoilers too much, but thank you for warning me: I’ve decided to try and do as much as I can spoiler-free to preserve the sense of curiosity and excitement that has so surprised me. >I think it might be required to save them at least once, to get their corresponding library book I got a fairy-tale book from them post-fight, same as I have from other bosses since, so if that’s the book in question then it’s not required to save them. Now I wonder if there are other bosses I could have avoided fighting; it’s difficult to tell! >you can start a new cycle and carry over most of your items and skills and stuff, just not companions. I'm not sure it's actually required unless you're trying to fill out the gallery, since you can't have a girl as both companion and prisoner. I think for the endings you can just reload to see them, if you save before any points of no return. Sorry, I thought the game made the cycle thing clear pretty early while you're exploring the home base area, but maybe that's only in 2, since it's unavoidable. So it’s a little like a New Game+? That’s good; it’ll make things much easier. I don’t recall the game ever mentioning the idea that I’ve done any of it before or that I can do it again, but it’s possible that I missed something. >Very true, though you may gather some friendly faces for your base at least. I think this is more Souls influence actually, having a companion waiting at the bonfire, or at your base, always welcoming despite everything. Like the Plain Doll in Bloodborne. I suspect it's not an accident that those characters are usually female, either; probably speaks to something in the male psyche. As I mentioned above, the Sacred Forest has an interesting combination of welcome and dread to it. On the one hand it’s safe, green, and mostly full of friendly faces that boat-building fairy aside, the bitch, but on the other hand it has that prison beneath it. A weary hero being able to lay down his head on a pretty girl’s lap is a very common mythic feature for a reason, I think, one that mirrors an archetypal image of home. >Leaf is very interested to see what you'll do. I’m starting to notice that, yeah. What she said next to Rotten Burg’s bonfire where she asked about what my character thought of buying sex and the Abandoned Mine’s bonfire where she talked about my choices, which was ironic considering what happens to the adventurer nearby even if you save him as well as in the prison particularly stuck out to me. She’s so everywhere that I wonder how things would have unfolded if I’d simply chosen to rape and kill her on sight. Much lonelier, I suspect, though with the way this game throws surprises around, who knows? >it's also one way you know the game has to be resilient to sequence breaking, since you can just... kill any NPC. Even when it's a bad idea. Bit BioWare that way. It’d be pretty funny if I’d chosen to kill that rabbit who levels me up in the Sacred Forest and he was replaced by Biff the Understudy. But of course all that would happen then is that I wouldn’t be able to level up and my progress would probably grind to a halt… although maybe not, given that most of my stat increases come from coloured souls and most of my techniques come from weapons and books?
>>3953 >The bosses, too, manage to create the kind of “oh shit!” moments that I hardly ever feel anymore It's somewhat rare that RPG Maker games reward or require you to strategize even if you have the option to grind, but Black Souls does pull this off at times. A good strategy can replace sheer stat numbers in many cases. >The atmosphere the game manages to wring out of the RPGMaker engine’s affordances is remarkable Indeed, and as you said before, the environments are pretty good for being made of RPG Maker tiles. I'm glad you're getting into it. >(though I did find it confusing that the scene was written like a loli scene but she didn’t seem all that loli) >excellent bedroom patter thank you Red Hood I feel very comfortable.jpg The second game eventually makes it clear that she's of age, not that this seems to be a great concern to our hero, given Alma Elma, Gretel, Alice, etc. Narratively, one could assume she's tailoring her dirty talk to her customer base, but one could also assume it's just a product of her weird upbringing and relationship with sex, as a prostitute who can't feel true sexual pleasure except with the wolf possibly due to being raped and abused as a child. >Is it normal to settle into the idea that it’s perfectly natural for my character to feed his girls second-hand XP by having them fellate and/or bodyjob him? A venerable h-game tradition, I believe. Sometimes it's rendered as "mana transfer" instead. >of being a little fairy girl sat on her upraised butt, cheekily holding either of her holes open with my feet to help the cause of those screams get that little bit more pleasure from the act Pretty hot. Self-inserting as Leaf should make some things... interesting. >I still don’t know for sure what the prison’s purpose is, but then I’m not going around hitting the rape or kill options either Well, that's why you don't know what the prison's purpose is. It's for imprisoning women. Most characters you can rape will end up there. It's not some immersion break that Leaf points out the prison to you; if you go that route, she's fine with that. > I got a fairy-tale book from them post-fight, same as I have from other bosses since, so if that’s the book in question then it’s not required to save them. Now I wonder if there are other bosses I could have avoided fighting; it’s difficult to tell! Oh, yeah, I guess you're probably fine then. There are bosses you can avoid fighting but they're mostly just recruitable characters who were in a precarious situation at the start and went unhelped for too long, a requirement less stringent than the twins' little questline. >She’s so everywhere that I wonder how things would have unfolded if I’d simply chosen to rape and kill her on sight. Ah, right, I should've said that you can kill everyone except fairies. As the game tells you, they just revive. Whether that makes it more or less satisfying to rape and 'kill' that fairy with the nice boat is a matter of personal taste.
Question for you all because I'm curious. There have been a lot of games mentioned where you're not really playing as a quean or vixen. What do you do when a game wants you to name a character, especially a main character, but you plan to self-insert as someone else, like the above anon? Do you put in your real partner's name, or one of your husbandos/waifus, or maybe it depends on what role you expect that character to play like whether he's a heroic or bad person? Do you go with the default if that's an option? (Sometimes there's no default.) >>3953 >all at once I felt the rainy, drab, dark, twisted-fairy-tale aesthetic of the game weave itself into that picture so thoroughly that it made my breath catch. Have you noticed that the music choices for h-scenes are a bit... atypical in mood compared to most h-games? Perhaps that's what they were going for with that creative choice.>>3953
>>3956 That art already exists of faeries perched atop pussies is not on its own a surprise; what is is that it depicts them cheekily spreading those pussies with their feet, just as I imagined, that said pussies are shown creampied—which I did not imagine but should have—that there are two such works, and that one of them is Bravely Default fanart. I'm very impressed that you found these, Anon, and I'm going to have to save these for... uh, use as a warning against the hubris of believing in one's own originality. >Pretty hot. A long time ago I came across a couple of little autobiographical comics by a girl who had microphilia; the fantasy of being fairy-sized was a pretty big part of her sexuality. A part I found very sweet was that her boyfriend had learned to ambush her with her own impossible fetish by finding little ways to imply at unexpected moments that she was indeed fairy-sized, like bringing her a thimble full of water instead of a glass, or mentioning offhand after sitting down next to her how he had to be careful not to crush her. I tried to find the comics again but they've been sucked into the searchability void or otherwise fallen off the Internet, alas. >Self-inserting as Leaf should make some things... interesting. For me that flash was just a spontaneous moment of fantasy. I actually haven't found myself self-inserting into anyone in the game just yet; there hasn't really been enough in the way of really solid interaction that would provide me the context to do so. >A good strategy can replace sheer stat numbers in many cases. I'm finding the going a little harder now, the choices not as obvious as they once were. The limit of four members in a given battle particularly is an interesting one because even if someone is knocked out they still take up the slot for the rest of the battle, so you have to pick quite carefully from your available companions once you begin to fill up the roster. I went back and finally hunted down Dorothy's companions, though it remains to be seen whether she'll be good enough to join my lineup. I've noticed that Victoria's usefulness has started to wane as more enemies get attacks that target the whole party; HP inflation means that her fixed-amount healing simply can't keep up, but she's still cute enough that I'd like her to stay useful. >Whether that makes it more or less satisfying to rape and 'kill' that fairy with the nice boat is a matter of personal taste. I have never come so close to getting a notch on my sin counter as with that fairy. Seriously, that boss's second stage made my skin crawl. >The second game eventually makes it clear that she's of age, not that this seems to be a great concern to our hero She's a confusing character. I accidentally dragged over the second spoiler and, yeah, I kind of figured there'd be something like that going on with her wolf but what got me popping question marks was her asking about talking to her mother in the Holy Forest. I had no idea who she was talking about or the context of their relationship, so I suggested she did and ended up with the soul-selling woman leaving. I guess if I'd played Red Hood's Woods, I'd know? That said, I'm not surprised she can't feel very much given this game's vulval widths. >recruitable characters who were in a precarious situation at the start and went unhelped for too long I nearly missed Catherine in the Skeleton Maze but remembered a stairway I hadn't yet explored and backtracked for; glad I did, though she hasn't joined me yet. >>3961 >What do you do when a game wants you to name a character, especially a main character, but you plan to self-insert as someone else, like the above anon? When there's a strong story with nameable characters ala SNES-era FF, I usually do the boring thing and name them their defaults. When I'm playing in a more emergent game where there aren't any default names or I don't like the defaults, I give the characters original names. If I end up self-inserting, it's almost like merging myself and the others I want as though we're "playing" the characters in question, or I'll just ignore the names and use the game as a jumping-off point for fantasy. If I'm playing something specifically to self-insert (very rare) then I'll use names or handles. >>3961 >Have you noticed that the music choices for h-scenes are a bit... atypical in mood compared to most h-games? I did; hard to miss the sex being made eerie. I was reminded a little bit of the atmosphere music that plays over some of the sex scenes in the original Fate/Stay Night VN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjlNjiftFPo Both are a bit dreamlike, floaty, un-real, even haunted. For me, the way the sex is framed in Black Souls' broken world gives it this feeling of... I don't know how to describe it. Loneliness? Power? Totality? Disconnectedness? Darkness? When I think about that flash-image of the chained girl sobbing through her gag in a prison built beneath the only safe place in the world, or that lonely cabin in the perpetually-raining woods, something of the world's hopelessless turns sexual. It's a little gothic, but gothic doesn't describe it properly - it's something else.
>>3967 >now I ain't made tenure or nothing but I'm pretty sure that wasn't in the book.png ~twisted fairy tales~ >I'm very impressed that you found these, Anon, and I'm going to have to save these for... uh, use as a warning against the hubris of believing in one's own originality. Oh, don't be too impressed. I "found" these in my own stash, where they reside because I appreciate that same scenario. I've occasionally looked up pictures for imageboard posts, but not here. Yet, is it not joyful that there are others in the world with shared weird interests? For example: >little autobiographical comics by a girl who had microphilia; the fantasy of being fairy-sized was a pretty big part of her sexuality. A part I found very sweet was that her boyfriend had learned to ambush her with her own impossible fetish by finding little ways to imply at unexpected moments that she was indeed fairy-sized, like bringing her a thimble full of water instead of a glass, or mentioning offhand after sitting down next to her how he had to be careful not to crush her. Super sweet, like fairy cake. >I'm finding the going a little harder now, the choices not as obvious as they once were. The limit of four members in a given battle particularly is an interesting one because even if someone is knocked out they still take up the slot for the rest of the battle, so you have to pick quite carefully from your available companions once you begin to fill up the roster. Personally, I eventually concluded that mostly I was better off investing Souls in the one character I knew would be present for all battles: our protagonist. It is quite doable to beat the game well before reaching the level cap (which isn't merely 99), let alone the stat cap using items. I still raised each girl to 99 just because I wanted to, though. Incidentally, the last level that grants anyone a skill is 30, which requires 28,252 Souls total to reach though at one point there is a benefit to having a companion at level 99 to fulfill an NPC's demand, which takes 287,815 Souls total to reach. >I have never come so close to getting a notch on my sin counter as with that fairy. Regarding that mechanic, in practical terms it's actually quite easy to remove sins, despite what the Black Trial might tell you. But this is just as well, because you will want at least 5 sin at one point, and 0 sin at another. >asking about talking to her mother in the Holy Forest. I had no idea who she was talking about or the context of their relationship, so I suggested she did and ended up with the soul-selling woman leaving. I guess if I'd played Red Hood's Woods, I'd know? Nah, Black Souls tells you everything you need to know about her past via dialogue. It's not the most obvious thing, but the clues to their relationship are more in things eventually said by the soul-selling woman herself. You probably guessed, but what happened there was avoidable and not ideal - a consideration for another cycle. >That said, I'm not surprised she can't feel very much given I'm... fairly sure that's just puffy labia, with perhaps a dash of amateurish artistry. The art in the prequel is really rough, and the sequel's is markedly better; there is a clear progression. >For me, the way the sex is framed in Black Souls' broken world gives it this feeling of... I don't know how to describe it. Loneliness? Power? Totality? Disconnectedness? Darkness? All fair descriptors. For me, the feeling is partly given by the primary form sex has taken - soul feeding. They feed on our protagonist's strength, and they sate his appetites, for a time. The world is being consumed, and often the best you can do is feed on each other. To give sustenance away is an act of largess, for times of plenty - or an investment, or a gift to one you truly value - otherwise, the old saying applies: why buy the cow if you get the milk for free? You may note that despite dialogue implying otherwise, the player doesn't actually get much in the way of sexual service except as a transaction, sometimes framed as a reward for services rendered. Nothing repeatable on-demand, save by the h-game expedient concession of the scene gallery. There is alienation here, in the relations between player, protagonist, and ostensible lovers.
>>3973 > Incidentally, the last level that grants anyone a skill is I think you're forgetting about the unique bonus skills a certain character can give each of your companions once they're at level 99.
>>3976 Oh, that's true. Thank you, anon.
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>>3973 >is it not joyful that there are others in the world with shared weird interests? That's why I'm here! Imageboards as we know them may be in twilight, but there's still no place quite like /cuckquean/. >You probably guessed, but what happened there was avoidable and not ideal - a consideration for another cycle. That, plus Hansel and Gretel makes two things I know of to fix during the next cycle. Normally I'd be annoyed, but this game's doing a good enough job of throwing new things at me that I find myself not minding too much. >I was better off investing Souls in the one character I knew would be present for all battles: our protagonist I figured this paragraph was safe to look at, and I was right. I'm starting to feel the same way; as the roster of girls–can't really call them a harem; doesn't have the right feel—swells, keeping up with the ordinary area progression becomes more difficult. I've had it happen a few times that I'm unable to make use of summoning because the enemies will immediately one-shot my girls before they have a chance to do anything, and spreading out Souls to level them all evenly isn't viable without a bit of grind. I do like the tense feeling that every one of my moves counts and that summoning is a genuine risk trade-off instead of an automatic move, but the little detail of the girls' levels is a shame because I like the summoning system. If I were designing the game I'd probably do it differently, perhaps one of a) automatically leveling the girls with the protagonist, which would focus things on their selection and use, b) having one "slot" to pour Souls into, if you'll pardon the phrasing, perhaps by presenting it as a separately-leveled summoning skill, or c) laying out the girls' skill trees ahead of time, which would make separately leveling them a matter of strategic planning rather than a shot in the dark. Another thing I like about the summoning system is the little remarks that the girls give when summoned into boss fights. When I fought the boss that had occupied the Three Little Pigs' compound, I summoned Victoria and she gave me a hint that the boss, and all beast types, were vulnerable to fire. I really liked that, and I keep hoping that it'll show up again, but all I've seen since then are quips. It'd be nice if there was one particular girl who was more likely to give this kind of information, or even if different girls hinted at different areas of expertise. >I'm... fairly sure that's just puffy labia, with perhaps a dash of amateurish artistry. That's definitely it, but still... de vag00 do stick out. I like the scribbled style, and I've no objection to puffy vulva, it's just that I find it a little distracting when when labia is so out of proportion that it starts to resemble a front bottom or a set of dickless testicles. But that's just a small thing: I can forgive the amateurish parts. I actually find Black Souls very inspiring because it proves that one can make an engaging game under skill limitation if one's willing to say "fuck it" and do one's best. But on the other hand, I also know that you've got to have enough respect for an audience to want to put out something worth their time, yet enough contempt for that audience that you can put their reactions out of your mind when necessary. Those last two parts can be tough to do at the same time. >You may note that despite dialogue implying otherwise, the player doesn't actually get much in the way of sexual service except as a transaction, sometimes framed as a reward for services rendered. Nothing repeatable on-demand, save by the h-game expedient concession of the scene gallery. There is alienation here, in the relations between player, protagonist, and ostensible lovers. I did notice that. Leaf aside, all non-rape sex I've seen so far in Black Souls is first initiated either as a response to life-threatening peril or by explicit transaction: The women are in distress, whores, or whores in distress. Those who were in distress get a brainwash gloss to their dialogue, and those who were whores remain whores, but all restrict themselves to oral or manual sex once they're safely in the Holy Forest, and even that's only done as a way of getting delicious souls out of your Level-Up Rod. There's no affection nor relationship, not really, and no way to establish one. It's just not something the world has room for. The more I think about it, the bleaker it becomes.
>>3990 Finished! I got endings B, C, and D. I don't think I'll bother with redoing the cycle for ending A or getting the CGs I'm missing, since I've bought and moved on to Black Souls 2 now. All my fears of grinding turned out to be unfounded. Having hit a sticking point, I decided to fossick for optional bosses and ended up managing to kill the Bandersnatch, after which I went on a princess-hunting spree and managed to accidentally cheese the game by using the extra action from Rapunzel's Favor to use Power Within and Heavy Soul Discharge in a single turn with a fully-upgraded Witch's Staff that reduced all MP costs to ~*~free~*~, which flattened most everything before it could move, including every boss thereafter up to and including Mary Sue herself. So rather than being an uphill fight, the game abruptly levelled off into a gentle exploratory stroll, perfect for taking in scenery, chasing down the surprising amount of content in the fringe areas, levelling the girls, and collecting books. That went some way to removing the handicap I'd imposed on myself by traipsing through nearly the whole game ignorant of my character's ability to wear not just one ring but four until Leaf gave me hers. I also managed to screw up by not realising that the scene where the Little Match Girl's mother approaches her wasn't a cutscene, but by the time I found that out it wasn't worth back-tracking. I take back my comments about Dark Souls's sex being wretched. Much of it is, especially the rape scenes, which I dipped a toe into after defeating Beauty and the final scene of Ending C, but I found Goose's scenes and most of the Hotel Poseidon scenes uncharacteristically sweet, including a nice little line that popped out of Jeanne of all girls. (Also thank you very much, game, for ambushing me with confirmation of Red Hood's bestiality out of nowhere during her hotel scene.) That made it all the worse when the Library's back room made it clear that I did indeed have to do what I suspected I'd have to. The little scenes in the lake were cute, too. I'm very glad to have played Black Souls and confirm for myself that it is a thoroughly queany game.
>>4042 boy are you going to have a blast with 2
>>4043 The character designs are cute, the atmosphere's great, the art's much-improved, the writing is... the same, and I like how the world's been grounded in this fallen London-like topology which makes for a fresh change from the strung-together areas of the first game. So I'm finding it intriguing, but with a lot of frustrating, annoying, and even downright obnoxious things blended in. It feels like this one, perhaps in trying to cram in all the ideas the maker(s) had, mistook obtuse and player-hostile for difficult. I never felt that the first Black Souls was against me as a player; I could and did fuck up in subtle ways that changed things significantly, but it would have taken very deliberate choices or downright stupidity to actually lock me out of anything and I never felt that anything was designed in an unfair way. But in the second one, I’ve already come up against fundamental things that’re done in a downright obtuse way and, if easily missed, arbitrarily lock the player out of what I presume are endings. Take the mental hospital for example: I thought it was very effectively laid out and established atmosphere beautifully. Using strong, non-aggressive enemies like the Nurses and conditionally-aggressive enemies that respond to things the player is used without a second thought, like Neurosurgeons, who only attack sprinters was pretty inspired. As a careful player who enjoys exploration, I naturally found Iron Hans’s gun and thought it was a nice easter egg. What I didn't know was that finding that gun allows you to summon Iron Hans to assist you in that area's boss fight but only if you're human rather than Hollowed. Now, the game does tell you that if you're Hollowed you can't "summon Dream spirits", but not what that means or why you might want to, which naturally has the player conclude that it's related to an ability they'll find later, perhaps something like the first game's summoning assist system. If you approach the boss room while Hollowed, book that shows up next to its entrance if you're human simply isn't there, nor is any indication that it could be there, and if you don't already know about it then you may well grit your teeth, grind up to a level where you can beat the boss on your own and in so doing lock yourself out of receiving Iron Hans's book. This is not something that—AFAIK—merely exploring or paying attention could ever have told you, which tells me that the game's creator(s) became so wrapped up in cramming in all these ideas that they lost the ability to see things from a player's perspective. This brings us to the SEN system, which I looked forward to, but which has turned out so far to be a little disappointing. The basic idea is cool: Drop SEN (SENity? SENse?) to dangerous levels and things get very nasty and hostile, but being on the cusp of madness also reveals certain things. The music changes, the environments alter—it’s all very nicely done and suggests what should be mechanical tension that requires you to make difficult choices as you navigate both the game world and your own mental health. Is what you see really there, or is it your dipping SEN level? We expect, therefore, that SEN should be something that deserves a player's attention. So, what raises or drops your SEN? Sex and other physical intimacy raises it, which I buy. Finding useful items on headless corpses raises it, which is—okay, I guess I can buy that, given it tells us something about our character and the type of world he inhabits. Using your free-black-soul-with-every-death-call-1800-KILL-ME-now lowers it, which makes sense both thematically and mechanically. How about being treated to a vivid description of what a rotting corpse's vagina feels like to fuck because you thought that the "beggar" would probably be better off in your dungeon? That raises SEN, of... of course? Maybe necrophilia hits different when you're undead yourself, who knows. But all this, as far as I can tell at this early stage, is mere window-dressing, because the things that raise or lower your SEN either have minimal impact on the number OR are completely under your control, which means the mechanic doesn't meaningfully interact with your play except as a lever you experimentally pull by using items or repeatedly raping Node. (Except it's not rape at all because unlike EVERY other use of the "Rape" option I've seen, the sex DOESN'T lead to the NPC in question being stripped of their function and irretrievably thrown in your dungeon, which you only know without trying because the Hints.txt file all but tells you that Node is INTENDED to be a free SEN-filling station. If you don't know about Node being your designated SEN-hole and naturally conclude that throwing her in the dungeon will prevent you from levelling up as though you'd killed Prayer Master in the first game, then you're stuck with flipping down SEN 10 at a time from Pictures or Souls and up 30 at a time from the psych medicine, which is almost as jolting and feels just as much a lever-pull. Oh nooo, the third time in a minute I've looked at a picture of Alice, I'm goooooiiiinnnng maaaaad aaaaaaa~) Also, SEN-related effects don't seem to happen progressively, but rather kick in all at once as soon as you dip below zero, meaning that what would otherwise be an intriguing question of whether you're under its influence at any given moment is reduced to a simple yes/no. So rather than being a tense experience that helps convey the strain of surviving a horrifying fallen world, it's something you think about not at all except to occasionally wonder "hmm, will not pulling the SEN-down lever in this area and fighting through the impossible swarms irretrievably screw me over in a way that may only be vaguely hinted at much later?" You can imagine how I might be disappointed that the experience of SEN I was so curious about has so far been occasionally using a pile of black souls, poking around a bit to see if anything's significantly different, getting wiped, and then using my left hand to hold CTRL through five to seven Node-fuckings while my chin rests in my right. Oh, and all that's without discovering from the guide I resorted to that high SEN also sometimes has an effect, but unlike low SEN the game doesn't feel the need to indicate anything is different, so without knowing that from a guide you'd never think to experiment. Reach, meet grasp. This isn't the only place where the game commits to an interesting mechanic before dropping it by the wayside, shrugging, and then chasing off after whatever next thing it thought of. Take the revamped basic dodge/break/guard system: Hints.txt (seriously, you put a psuedo-hint system in the game itself and filled up the library with them, why not put the mechanical explanations there as well?) tells you about them and you're required to know them well enough to pass the first boss. Great! The game has successfully used the boss-as-exam pattern, so you're sure to see more of that fundamental mechanic. Except oh, no, wait, the only other time I've seen it in action is in a single large-sized ordinary enemy. I'll grant you that its use may re-emerge later, but why train a player on something if you're not going to use it? They may well have forgotten by the time you remember it exists. The rest of the game's fine enough to keep me going, but there's enough jank in this one that I might just have to throw out my sense of discovery, intrigue, and exploration and resort to playing it with a guide open. And in my mind, if that's the choice you present to your players, if you're turning your game into work, then it doesn't matter how good your atmosphere is or how cute your girls are, you've fucking failed. YES I'M MAD
>>4042 I'm glad you enjoyed Black Souls 1! >I don't think I'll bother with redoing the cycle for ending A or getting the CGs I'm missing, Up to you, of course. Did you notice you can get little mini endings with each girl? The fact that each of them gets corrupted if you have Leaf's Ring, except for Leaf's ending and arguably Red Hood's is potentially a clue to what's really going on. Interestingly, you might think C is the true ending, but I'd argue the one most likely to lead to Black Souls 2 is the one where you go live with Red Hood. I don't know what scenes you got, but you mentioned not saving Elma, and I rather liked the scene where she rewards you for it. Apparently a certain other girl taught her just how to thank a man like our protagonist. Sadly, unlike BS2, I don't think the first game has a way to cheat-unlock the gallery, but there's surely a save online somewhere. At least you saved Jeanne; she really is a cutie. >managed to accidentally cheese the game by using the extra action from Rapunzel's Favor to use Power Within and Heavy Soul Discharge in a single turn with a fully-upgraded Witch's Staff that reduced all MP costs to ~*~free~*~, Hah. Wait til you see how insane combat gets in BS2. Extra actions and endless MP aren't so much cheese as they are a requirement, by the time you're doing more advanced endings or especially the DLC content. Not to mention some other tactics that would qualify as cheese in other games, like canceling cooldowns, or 100% evasion of physical attacks that aren't guaranteed-hit. >I take back my comments about Dark Souls's sex being wretched. Much of it is, especially Truthfully I knew about the big exception where you can do lovey-dovey vaginal sex with each girl but I couldn't think of a way to even hint at it without feeling like a spoiler. And of course, you saw what the arguable real purpose of that turned out to be. As for the final scene of Ending C, I guess it's wretched in a way, but can you really say it'd be satisfying to forgive Mary Sue for wrecking the whole world? Isn't the clue right in her name, that it wouldn't work, and would be playing into her hands? She needed killin', as they say in Texas. Grimm/Andersen/Carroll/etc wrote and collected tales to delight and edify the children of the very world she twisted into mockeries of their work. Extremely hateable, unforgivable fairy. I too liked the lake scenes. It's interesting how shy our protagonist could seem in those. A soul not yet fully blackened, it'd seem. Regarding Poro, if it helps, he's sentient and even capable of speech, so it's only beastiality by some measures. >>4047 Unfortunately I agree with some of your frustrations about the design of BS2, which is part of why I recommended starting with BS1. BS2 is a big, impressive experience, and it gave me feelings, but I wouldn't feel guilty about resorting to a guide once you've gotten frustrated. You're broadly correct that most NPCs don't appreciate rape, and even those who don't seem to mind prison life will break any covenant you have with them. Node is special, like the Alice doll in BS1; she accepts anything you do. As they say, you can't rape the willing. It's possible the Black Souls devs are old-school and think it's reasonable to expect players to check a TXT file included with the game. Regarding the SEN system, this probably makes things better mechanically but worse narratively: You can get an item that sets your SEN to 0 or 100, the important thresholds, and to get it you kill Jubjub which you'll probably do anyway at least once since a living and uncaged Jubjub will fly across the land and condemn its inhabitants to madness and death, once you've hit a certain amount of "progress" for your current cycle as measured by the library's north wall and also for the standard reason of using her soul for transmutation into a unique weapon. Thankfully, the game does a decent job of conveying a horrifying fallen world regardless of your current SEN, and there is the small matter of whether what you see with high or low SEN is closer to reality... When I played, I remember pain points being figuring out certain endings, finding The Terrible Tragic Hotel, redoing Winterbell to get all three companions for the area boss, and diving Mabel's infinite dungeon, which has two unique weapons, Gla'akid and Mary's Magical Wand, only available randomly starting from depth 8 (depth resets with each cycle) and the wand is actually quite useful, plus some of the +3 variants of normal accessories may be nice to have. Also Mabel's panties, or the "mystery of the night sky" as they are fancifully dubbed, are a useful reward from the "Ashes Reignited" gauntlet, which should probably count as a separate pain point. You can probably win without all that optional content though. One could count finding books as a pain point, but unlike in BS1 where they were very important, I think the only really consequential thing they do is unlock a scene with Node if you gather them all in the same cycle, and honestly why even try when you could just cheat the gallery... The break system is not a one-off and will be useful to remember with many bosses and minibosses. It's sufficiently useful that some players hype the Hunter as the best starting class, not just for his dashing good looks, but because his sidearm lets you do "Gun Break" which is fairly useful in the early game. Never fear - you'll acquire his gear by other means soon enough; like BS1, nothing is locked to your starting class, and no mistake is truly irrecoverable. >cute accessory.jpg Sister Alice really is the cutest of the three. Also, have you noticed that Alice's pupils are shaped like little black rabbit heads? >Black Souls 2 guest starring Gawr Gura kek. Sadly we'll have to settle for other aquatic cuties, like pics related.
>>4050 >the one most likely to lead to Black Souls 2 is Anon, Black Souls 2 follows from ending D.
>>4050 >I think the only really consequential thing they do is You can also use collecting them all to get a pretty good ring instead.
>>4050 Fuck, I meant to spoiler those. Oh well. >>4051 I see why you'd think that, but I don't think that makes sense of Red Hood and Grimm's relationship in 2. It's far more likely that "Alice" had resurrection plans underway regardless or even was never dead. Red Hood's ending sees her leaving to hunt the one who's really responsible, and in 2 she's realized that's more "Alice" than it is Mary Sue. >>4052 One of the ways Node is a cuck is that despite competing for the same slots, her White Rabbit Ring is not actually as useful as the Black Rabbit Ring, and you can get 4 of the latter more easily. Yes yes, +20% stats, but if you want big numbers you should just "build a mountain of corpses and seek black souls" as Node puts it, instead of wasting ring slots. It's not as useful as a guaranteed bonus action.
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>>4050 My thanks to you (and the other anon) for recommending it. I had more fun with that game than I've had with any other game for a long while. Very refreshing. >Did you notice you can get little mini endings with each girl? I did, although at the time I'd only raised Leaf and Red Hood past level 99, so those were the only two I saw. I didn't realise that Leaf's ring corrupts the non-Leaf endings, since Red Hood's ring-corrupted ending was in-character enough that I didn't notice. >you might think C is the true ending, but I'd argue the one most likely to lead to Black Souls 2 is the one where you go live with Red Hood. Like >>4051 I presently think that ending D led to Black Souls 2, since that's the one where Alice very directly re-asserts herself. As soon as I saw Alice and Grimm having their happy little interlude in the meadow at the start of 2, I guessed that Alice had reconstructed things to her liking, and that the inciting incident of her disappearance and the new dark world's recreation was a sign of Mary Sue or some other entity re-asserting itself. That's all a guess, of course, since I'm not reading BS2 spoilers if I can help it. This kind of Gnostic setting where the player character is trapped in someone else's dream can never be fully resolved by reference to itself, since there can always be another dreamer pulling the strings. For example, to take just a few possibilities, to me at the moment it is equally likely that a) Mary Sue created Alice, who escaped her influence, b) Alice created Mary Sue, who either went rogue OR acted as she was supposed to in putting Grimm through the events of BS1 before Alice reasserted control, c) neither created the other, and are fighting over Grimm (and putting him to a great deal of trouble, I might add), d) a new Grimm-obsessed entity is involved, or e) many other possibilities. I tenuously take as given that Alice has her own existence and may pre-date Mary Sue's trickery because we see her together with Grimm in the opening of BS1. The way in which she is reduced to a sudden blood stain is identical to the deaths of other characters who mention or defy Mary Sue, so we might assume that this was the moment when Mary Sue took control. But this theory is impossible to confirm because it describes events inside a constructed reality that we cannot know the true rules of. About all I'm willing to state confidently is that Grimm has his own existence and some semblance of free will, albeit one subject to memory and history shenanigans. I'm almost as confident that major characters have independent existences, as we saw with Snow White, though they likewise can be subjected to manipulation. In the end there's no way to know: Like the stack of turtles, it's fucked up fairytale-dreams all the way down. >you mentioned not saving Elma, and I rather liked the scene where she rewards you for it I have a powerful enough BS1 save now that I could probably go back and do a cycle that rectifies all my previous mistakes, try to find the things I missed; perhaps I'll return to it one day if I'm curious. I'm not curious enough to go through and do a full rape/kill run, though; after raping Beauty and experimentally fucking a fairy to death—THAT was a rough surprise—I found myself not terribly titillated. Don't get me wrong, I like a bit of fictional forcey fun time as much as anyone, but it felt like BS1 went out of its way to make that path as grim (hurrhurr) as possible. Maybe I was in the wrong mood, or maybe playing from the male PC's perspective made it hit different, I don't know. >I couldn't think of a way to even hint at it without feeling like a spoiler Thank you for your restraint Anon. Honestly, the sex scenes in Hotel Poseidon were a little incongruous, but I didn't mind because after all the darkness it was just nice to see a little affection and love. And then I had to murder each of them in cold blood. That's the Black Souls experience, right there. >Extremely hateable, unforgivable fairy. I agree; shame I also identify with her desire to see her favourite man sow his wild oats among clover even if I think that she deserved every bit of what she got for ripping that favourite man away from where he wanted(?) to be and putting him through hell. Still... felt like snuff. >It's interesting how shy our protagonist could seem in those. I read it as a simple riff on a standard peeping setup, which requires the peeper to be ashamed of his actions. Naturally, Red Hood subverted it. >Regarding Poro Now I feel even worse about deciding to leave him alive after I killed Red Hood in the hotel. >I wouldn't feel guilty about resorting to a guide once you've gotten frustrated. I've already given up any gAmEr CrEd I might have had by taking advantage of the soul-rich eyeball clusters that appear in the Crash Chamber below 0 SEN, as recommended by a guide I consulted in frustration at the Mental Hospital's boss. It's hardly turned things into a cakewalk, though, even though straight afterwards I discovered that I'd completely missed the graveyard area, which may have accounted for my place on the progression curve. Still, unlike BS1, the illusion of open-worldness is pretty flimsy; I could strike out through either Forest or Ranch in BS1 but in BS2 I quickly found myself obviously under-levelled. I suppose that's the price you pay for having a tighter, more interconnected map. >It's possible the Black Souls devs are old-school and think it's reasonable to expect players to check a TXT file included with the game. I don't think it's unreasonable, more that if you're going to include a built-in hint system using the ground writing (which I thought was a very cute move on the creator(s)' part) that explicitly tells you to use such-and-such keys to do this-and-that, why not also put the super-important mechanical explanations there as well? The only explanation I can think of is that they wanted to maintain the terse style of the ground writing they were parodying. >his sidearm lets you do "Gun Break" which is fairly useful in the early game. Never fear - you'll acquire his gear by other means soon enough I've actually just found it, though I've not tried it out because I've no idea what "gun break" is or how it might be more useful than any other break. >>4053 >I meant to spoiler those. Oh well. At least your mistake means we all got to see the cute, and I have no context for her anyway so it's not much of a spoiler.
>>4054 Oh yes, you were partly interested in BS2 because of the Cheshire Cutie, right? How are you liking your mad little meetings with her? Better than Leaf's? Also, I completely forgot to ask before - in BS1 did you even see, let alone recruit, Black Trial Condemner Miranda? It'd be good if you had, since she does reappear in 2... Or does she? Kyahaha~ >I agree; shame I also identify with her desire to see her favourite man sow his wild oats among clover even if I think that she deserved every bit of what she got for ripping that favourite man away from where he wanted(?) to be and putting him through hell. Still... felt like snuff. Well, every part of that I agree with, to the letter. Yet, when it came to ending C, I was not Leaf, I was not even Grimm - I was again myself, the player, and I desired both to see the Grimm I'd come to care for have sex with cuties and to see a God-awful villainess get what was coming to her. And I got both those things, one after the other! Yeah, it was fucked up, but it was about the best ending I could have hoped for in a game like that. On reflection, it might have been cathartic because I've consumed so much media where the big villains, the ones important enough to have names rather than being henchmen, get redeemed and let off lightly with barely a penance - we even saw a touch of that in BS1 with Goose. So Mary Sue getting betrayed in turn and summarily executed, while Grimm didn't even have to forgo enjoying her body one last time... I dunno, it really satisfied something within me. I may also be a little too pleased with myself for acting disappointed that you might not be warming to Leaf (after all, everyone loves Leaf!) when I knew all along that Leaf belongs in the compost. >Now I feel even worse about deciding to leave him alive after I killed Red Hood in the hotel. There's multiple ways one could read that statement, but the only clue I have to what would be best in that situation is: If you attempt to rape Red Hood in BS1 - forcibly, not what BS2 calls "rape" in which you pester her for sex until she gives in - Poro won't let you do it except over his dead body - so after you kill him and claim your subdued Red Hood vulva, she says something like "I won't break our promise, Poro - we'll be together" and fucking slits her own throat on the spot. >I suppose that's the price you pay for having a tighter, more interconnected map. This is funny to me because when I first played BS2, I took the key from Cheshire at the first opportunity and immediately hared off in the wrong direction through the red door and got pretty far, at least until I got absolutely fishfucked at Billingsgate. Still, the majority of areas in the game can be reached from multiple directions, so it's not linear. You can even reach Node's library on a new game without ever dying, difficult though it is - I did it once just to see if I could. >I've actually just found it, though I've not tried it out because I've no idea what "gun break" is or how it might be more useful than any other break. Well I mean... you can just equip the gun and then check the skill description on Gun Break? It's like the regular Break skill, same effect, but with a short cooldown (that hardly ever matters) and is a free action.
>>4056 >It's like the regular Break skill, same effect, but with a short cooldown (that hardly ever matters) and is a free action. That and it actually does damage.
>>4056 >How are you liking your mad little meetings with her? Better than Leaf's? She's pretty good. I like that she has her own theme music, and her knowledge of lizard taxonomy. (When I saw the filename in the bonus pictures folder I thought I was being funned, but no, that's actually how the game refers to him, not that that's much of a spoiler.) Plus she warned me off going into the Red Queen's castle too early, so she's been useful. It's interesting that one of the other characters—I forget who—mentions that the fog closing off boss arenas is the "Cheshire Cat's warning", which implies that she's more than an observer and occasional campfire chat, but exactly to what degree she's involved in all this remains a mystery for now. And, I'll admit, I'm a little hesitant to trust any campfire companion at face value. Still the best design in the game. >Black Trial Condemner Miranda No, I never saw her. All this talk of people I didn't meet or recruit makes me slightly more tempted to backtrack and try blitzing through BS1 again for a perfect run, but I'd want to make sure I hit all the bits I didn't get when I played normally and I've not been able to find much in the way of comprehensive guidance. >it might have been cathartic because I've consumed so much media where the big villains, the ones important enough to have names rather than being henchmen, get redeemed and let off lightly with barely a penance Ah yes, nobody is really evil—ssssh, ignore that they've done evil things; why focus on the past?—just misunderstood or damaged or some other release valve that after the Nth repetition starts to look an awful lot like an escape hatch set aside for later use. If we could interpret the chemical signals that parasitic vein-worms release to cloak themselves from their host's immune system, I bet they'd sound something like "there's no such thing as a parasite" and "why are you being so judgemental anyway?". Goose's case is a half-subversion, since she runs through textbook faking of sincerity by reflex in the hopes of getting off scott-free; I refused to forgive her, and in so doing gained her as a companion and got all my deposited Souls back. I noticed that uniquely among the companions I'd unlocked, only Goose's non-hotel scenes seemed sweet. Her death dialogue, too, seemed to indicate that it had been sincere, but who knows? >Mary Sue getting betrayed in turn and summarily executed, while Grimm didn't even have to forgo enjoying her body one last time... I dunno, it really satisfied something within me. It was definitely just desserts and the strangling during sex made sense thematically, I was just a little put off by the juxtaposition of sex and murder. But when I think about it, Black Souls never performs a pure killing in a cutscene; all kills are either resolved through the battle interface or with a simple SFX and sprite fade. Perhaps the only way to do a cutscene killing without it feeling incongruous is, in a perversely mechanical way, to mix it with sex. Amazing that a scribbly RPGMaker game has managed to make me double-take more than most things I can remember. >I knew all along that Leaf belongs in the compost. Very adroitly done, Anon. I knew that she was suspicious, just not that she'd turn out to be so... that. >fucking slits her own throat on the spot Jesus fucking Christ. These games manage do to escape turning into pizza cutters—all edge and no point—but I do know that if I'd heard a lot of this out of context I'd never have given them much of a look. >I took the key from Cheshire at the first opportunity and immediately hared off in the wrong direction through the red door and got pretty far, at least until I got absolutely fishfucked at Billingsgate The closest I'd managed was to get into the Pond of Bloody Tears through the Crash Chamber's small exit, and that was only after back-tracking once I'd become strong enough to dispatch the armour guarding it. That was a hellava place, though fortunately I had enough up my sleeve by then to just survive the field of iron maidens. Haven't been back except by the exit from the graveyard, by which means I ran into Dodo. After I read this, I went back into the red door and had a poke around, but didn't manage to get anywhere except a Rabbit Kingdom with no exits and a whole lot of rabbits who don't seem to want to fight me, but nothing much else. I've probably missed something. It's the second such dead end I've found in BS2 so far, the other being the crypt underneath the dragfaggot asslizard cathedral, where pulling the lever seemed to do do nothing at all. I do like the Crash Chamber's jivey music, so it's not all a loss. The only other red door I can recall was in the mental hospital, which lead me to Tweedledee and Tweedledum, who again didn't seem to do much except offer an opportunity for rape. I've met a few minor characters already that who I'm now considering just raping and imprisoning because I know they'll probably end up with the fog overwhelming them the same way as the Prostitute-Vampire from the first one if I leave them alone, but on the other hand I've tended to not like the rape scenes very much. >you can just equip the gun And I did, though I later swapped it out for the Church Rifle, and found Gun Break to be a very satisfactory skill. There's a hellava lot in this game. I'm already level... 60? and judging by the number of BGM tracks in the data folder I've barely scratched the surface. >>4057 Seems to have a very high critical rate too.
>>4067 >one of the other characters—I forget who—mentions that the fog closing off boss arenas is the "Cheshire Cat's warning" I remember it being Holmes who mentioned it.
>>4070 And there's no more trustworthy source than a serial murderer of prossies! >>4067 >No, I never saw her. All this talk of people I didn't meet or recruit makes me slightly more tempted to backtrack and try blitzing through BS1 again for a perfect run, but I'd want to make sure I hit all the bits I didn't get when I played normally and I've not been able to find much in the way of comprehensive guidance. Hm... I have a fanmade guide I found somewhere, focused on CG unlocks but that does necessarily include how to get each character. I think I can attach txt files here... Sadly I don't have a complete guide for BS2, though I did find one written long ago based on the old fan translation and not including later DLC content like Winterbell. >but no, that's actually how the game refers to him Interactions with that character and related are weirdly detailed. Like, if you make and develop a covenant, at one point he'll make you a boxed lunch, kawaii Japanese gf style, and you have the opportunity to accept it nicely or knock it out of his hands rudely, then either apologize or berate him. Plus the thing that happens if you harm him or his god. Though to be fair, most characters you can make covenant with have some sort of mini-arc, even Node if you look carefully. One of the more obviously queany ones is Shisha and Dodo if you covenant both. >If we could interpret the chemical signals that parasitic vein-worms release to cloak themselves from their host's immune system, I bet they'd sound something like "there's no such thing as a parasite" and "why are you being so judgemental anyway?". Years ago I read a story from the perspective of some beehive residents about an infiltration of wax moths (a parasitic species) who justified their presence in the hive on grounds of tolerance and nonjudgment. Can't find it again, probably not all that relevant, but that's what your comment reminded me of. I'm not against redemption as a concept, but I think it's hollow with no penance, no behavioral changes going forward, no lessons learned. >Her death dialogue, too, seemed to indicate that it had been sincere, but who knows? This character, well, you do seem to make an honest woman of her, so to speak. I think most major characters in BS1 are at least sincere, though perhaps not in their right minds, as shown with Snow White's later dialogue. There are obvious exceptions in Leaf, Lizzie, and Baphomet. >strangling during sex made sense thematically That and some people have a kink for that. lol >I do know that if I'd heard a lot of this out of context I'd never have given them much of a look. I think that sort of thing can be meaningful if you've built up the characters, their relationship, etc. It makes sense in context, but it's definitely not how I'd advertise the game to someone who wasn't specifically into edge for its own sake. >After I read this, I went back into the red door and had a poke around, but didn't manage to get anywhere except That place is just there for sufficiently fast and powerful characters to farm souls and such, I think. You use the rabbit key (an uncommon resource) to get in, but I was talking about the Master Key consumable that recurs from BS1. As mentioned in the Hints.txt map, the outer "Rabbit Hole" area connects to Fuming Forest which connects to Billingsgate which is notable because if you beeline for that area and are really good at dodging enemies you could get a very early Hidden Body skill. At this point you probably have Cheshire's ring which enables another route to Billingsgate. >lever Other than increasing your "progress", I think it opens the way to where the lizard is. Depending on the order you did things, this may not have been noticeable. >The only other red door I can recall was in the There is something you can do with those NPCs, namely make covenant and eventually cuck Dum by stealing Dee's heart and virginity - lesqueans rejoice? I think there's a prerequisite, maybe beating the area boss. As for the fog mechanic, that's not what tends to make NPCs go mad, in 2. >I'm already level... 60? and judging by the number of BGM tracks in the data folder I've barely scratched the surface. The rate at which you gain power will increase, but FWIW as a reference point, I hit the level cap of 999. Thankfully, although spending souls on leveling up is more cost-effective while it lasts, you can continue to gain stats by purchasing souls. I believe (tainted) black and outer souls are most cost-effective for the stats they give. As for music, some of it is quite nice, though I suspect it's mostly a wide sample of stock RPG Maker and royalty-free Japanese BGM, some of which I've heard in other games. I'm fond of the rabbit battle theme, and the Crash Chamber music you mentioned.
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>>4070 Yes, now I remember! It makes sense in retrospect now that I've cleared Upper Newgate. Poor rabbitfurry whore; may your soul rest easy in the knowledge that your ears live on as equipment. >>4056 >Black Trial Condemner Miranda >since she does reappear in 2... I found her in Sawney Bean's cave and managed to subdue her after a few tries. (Side note: I quite like how Nightmare Spirits have been done in BS2, and hearing the sped-up boss music from the first game doesn't hurt either.) The fact that she had a portrait was a bit of a giveaway that all wasn't as normal. She seems pretty cute; the hard-shelled gooey-centred type. I'll definitely be sure to pick her up and explore her backstory if I replay BS1. Between her sex scenes and a couple of others, I've noticed impregnation popping up a fair bit in BS2's scenes; our character's sperm must be just fine. Perhaps "undead" is just a state where the person is forever bound to continuously resurrect until their purpose is fulfilled, a person in a state of unlife rather than the animated dead we'd normally think of. Haven't managed to beat even her first sparring match, yet, but hopefully it'll be a decent reward when I'm strong enough to beat her another nine times. It's interesting that she mentions herself as hiding from whoever's pulling the strings this time around. And, speaking of... After putting down Holmes/Jack in Upper Newgate and busting into Ox Ward University—after a little detour down the elevator to be pasted by the new and improved Bandersnatch-chan—I happened across a telescope aimed at the moon. "Ah ha," I gurgled knowingly, "this here moon is sure to change if only I cram a couple of black souls into my soul-hole. Sure enough, at -5 SEN the result was FUCKING NOTHING but back at the campfire I ran into none other than Red Hood. So I guess everyone's favourite dead lay has been hiding in madness or beneath madness somehow and I've most likely missed a whole lot of her content by not knowing where to yank the SEN-down lever. But, one thing I did notice: Where's Poro? So, feeling adventuresome, I decided to take in a nice beach stroll while under the effect of mental instability and after being introduced to a scythe by a lovely pair of gentle eyeball mojibake found a little red flame which doesn't make much sense given that the game already rejected my attempt to name my character "Grimm", but I'm a little afraid of what it might try to pull if I test starting a new game as "Lewis" or "Carrol"—should I ever do so, I'll have to back up my saves first. Interestingly, as I found out straight afterwards, the Mock Turtle doesn't speak in mojibake even when one's SEN is below zero. Perhaps it's because the game implies that she's also a little on the brink, given her references to taking medicine and general menhera vibe. I was glad that her third-level covenant scene wasn't the freakout I half-expected, given the second. >>4072 Thank you very much for that guide, Anon. I've saved it for later, in case I decide to use it. >he'll make you a boxed lunch, kawaii Japanese gf style I'm still carrying that item around; I tend to rush covenants straight to full as soon as I can, and I think he made me the lunch after the second level. The game does seem unusually fixated on him, judging from his frequency in the bonus art folder and the fact that your first interaction with him is an upskirt CG; no other covenantable character I've found has "bonus" CGs like that. Thank you, Japan, for not realising that it's not likely to be a surprise when someone called Bill reveals that he is actually a man. >most characters you can make covenant with have some sort of mini-arc I personally am holding out the most for the exciting twist that will no doubt be worked into the stuffed bear's story. >I'm not against redemption as a concept, but I think it's hollow with no penance, no behavioral changes going forward, no lessons learned. What worries me is that the media you earlier mentioned actively shortcut even the need to question whether that exists, mirroring its cynical use as merely one more lever that can be pulled when the perpetrator is caught, it's time to cash out, or merely a trade for a little more time/reasonable doubt. If you view media as a kind of cultural unconscious—whether it be manifesting what's leeching in from elsewhere, receiving injections from those who shepherd its creation, or a bit of both—then what this suggests would be deeply worrying were it not already obvious. >some people have a kink for that. lol To death, though? Personally I'm more for a bit of hand-clamped-over-mouth, but I think we can all agree that breathing-optional sex can be fun. >Hidden Body skill I was very relived when I was reunited with that particular tome. Let us explore together once more, my old friend! >stealing Dee's heart and virginity - lesqueans rejoice? Hmm, all I got with her at the third level was some tribbing-with-penis-between—is there a better, commonly-accepted term for that?—so I assumed that her talk of wanting to do more later was just flavour. >As for music, some of it is quite nice, though I suspect it's mostly a wide sample of stock RPG Maker and royalty-free Japanese BGM, some of which I've heard in other games. Do you know if the BS1 boss music/BS2 nightmare spirit music is original or stock? I quite like that track. One of the things I think the Black Souls series does well is to use stock assets mixed with extra free assets mixed with original assets in such a way that someone without extensive RPGMaker playing experience can't quite tell which is which. Nice and smooth!
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>hopefully it'll be a decent reward when I'm strong enough to beat her Miranda's Axe has situationally useful properties, at least. There's no real benefit to beating her after you get it, unless you just enjoy being kissed by her flesh-eating lips. >and I've most likely missed a whole lot of her content by not knowing where to yank the SEN-down lever Interesting places to do that include bonfires, bosses, covenantable NPCs, that mirror at the start of Lutwidge, that one spot with all the wagons near the fountain in Lutwidge, and wherever the ground hint messages have no apparent meaning. >I've noticed impregnation popping up a fair bit in BS2's scenes; our character's sperm must be just fine. Perhaps "undead" is just a state where the person is forever bound to continuously resurrect until their purpose is fulfilled, a person in a state of unlife rather than the animated dead we'd normally think of. Heh. Certain endings will reveal the value of Grimm's sperm. As for undeadness, it's likely an umbrella term for various states of being, ranging from the mindless schoolgirl zombie you can imprison, to sapients like Grimm. Not that different from the usual conception really, with beings ranging from zombies and ghouls to vampires and liches. Interestingly, it seems like Grimm no longer needs a special robe to protect himself from sunlight in BS2, so whatever rules existed may have been altered along with the world. >To death, though? Personally I'm more for a bit of By way of analogy, I don't want to be cheated on for real (you know, in a way I haven't previously consented to) or locked in permanent chastity (safety first!) but sometimes I might fantasize about things that are more extreme than I'd do in real-life play. I imagine it's something like that. >so I assumed that her talk of wanting to do more later was just flavour. nope~ Not everything you can do with every character is strictly and solely tied to covenant level. Check back later, I'd say. Besides, I said her virginity - what you're describing hardly counts, does it? >Do you know if the BS1 boss music/BS2 nightmare spirit music is original or stock? I quite like that track. It's hard to say, especially since there are multiple boss themes you could mean. What I'd do is find the music track you are talking about in the audio folder of BS1, check its metadata via right-click -> Properties -> Details or your favorite music player program (probably the Album or Artist tags will be useful), maybe cross-reference with the list of audio credits in read_me.txt. A quick look in my own music player indicates the likely sources for stock music are Wingless Seraph or H/MIX GALLERY (Hirokazu Akiyama). >One of the things I think the Black Souls series does well is to use stock assets mixed with extra free assets mixed with original assets in such a way that someone without extensive RPGMaker playing experience can't quite tell which is which. Nice and smooth! Yeah, it's nice. Many games attempt this, like The Last Sovereign, but not all have equal success.
>>4078 >FUCKING NOTHING Did you not look through it long enough?
>>4080 I took anon's post to mean that nothing worthwhile happened, although it sure is... an experience of some kind.
You commented on the sex music in BS1. It's different in 2; any thoughts? Personally I think it reflects an ongoing theme of questionable sanity. >>4054 >smug titty bird Not even the only one in the game, or the only one with brain problems. >>3990 >That's definitely it, but still... de vag00 do stick out. I like the scribbled style, and I've no objection to puffy vulva, it's just that I find it a little distracting when when labia is so out of proportion that it starts to resemble a front bottom You gotta stick it in her front butt. You gotta. >>3358 >Would it be sad because she's a widow? :( It's okay anon. Your anchor reincarnates, so it's a happy reunion. Meet the new anchor, same as the old anchor.
>>4079 >Interesting places to do that I had the impression, mainly from my early experiences in the Crash Chamber, that the mojibake eyeball enemies, Patients, etc. were omnipresent, but a little more exploring shows them to be around only in bursts. Alas, meeting any usually results in a quick death so my earlier complaints stand: The SEN mechanic is a little too bumpy to allow a player the opportunity to explore or even think about it very much. >Interestingly, it seems like Grimm no longer needs a special robe to protect himself from sunlight in BS2, so whatever rules existed may have been altered along with the world. Or there's no longer any sun, perhaps. >Not everything you can do with every character is strictly and solely tied to covenant level. Hm! I occasionally toured around my known covenantable characters but never found anything different, but I'll keep trying. >It's hard to say, especially since there are multiple boss themes you could mean The track in question is 悪夢霊.ogg, for which there's no metadata, but I found https://w.atwiki.jp/iniminimanimo/pages/40.html which names it as The 11th Lilith by M-ART. >>4080 I had a peek, but it was the same CG I saw before, so I stopped looking after a little while. How long must I stare at it before something happens? >>4086 >You commented on the sex music in BS1. It's different in 2; any thoughts? Personally I think it reflects an ongoing theme of questionable sanity. I gave the two consensual sex tracks a listen side-by-side. Both aren't anywhere close to how you'd expect a sex scene's music to sound. I've not the musical education to know if either was referencing anything or writing in a style reminiscent of something, but I tried to have a little think about what they were doing. BS1's track (最後の魔女 ["The Last Witch"] by Napi) is tragic. Formally, it's a "small binary" piece with an added intro, arranged IAABBAABB. Simply instrumented, too: Only three identifiable instruments over a pad of dark, swirling dissonances. I transcribed it here (leaving out the pad) at 120bpm for clarity, but its frequent holding on the first beat of its bars and slow rhythmic velocity make it sound like it's around half that speed. There's nothing "satisfying" to be found here. The music is tonally ambiguous—especially with that pad growling below—and the melody is at odds with the harmony, at times intervening to sour the small scraps of resolution that the harmony initially tries to give the listener. Take the intro, for example. Normally you want to let the listener know what to expect, so you start with something that puts their ear in the right key. The song's first section has an A major harmony, so a cheerier and more straightforward song might open with an A; here, we immediately get hit with tension because the tolling church bell is in G#. G# is a less common tone than A, and G# is in A major, so we're left in this uncomfortable state where we aren't sure whether we're hearing a song opening in G# or A. We're made to wait a whole 8 bars (16 seconds) with that G# fruitlessly pulling and the bass pad growling before we finally get the relief we're subconsciously expecting when it finally resolves to A. That relief only lasts for the section's first bar. The first section's harmony has A major's major chords happily going through a very simple, direct progression, but the melody diverges on the second bar into A minor. (The harmony also drops in an interval that was used in the "lament" form, but that's a minor detail.) As if that wasn't enough, the melody waits until the harmony tries to confirm itself in the fourth bar and then instead of hitting us with the tonic A (which might help resolve things) or the dominant E (which might add momentum) it hops back to A major for ONE note, that being the tension-heavy G#, and refuses to move for the whole bar. The harmony's momentum drains away, unable to move, but not its tension. What happens when you stress someone but lock them in place? Depression! So the harmony tries again, and again the melody sticks to A minor. This time around, it briefly teases the listener with some hope by hitting E at the same time the harmony does, before again jumping to G# and turning the whole thing into a depressingly diminished sound. By the time we get to the second section, the hopeful harmony has given up and modulated to A minor as well. Having corrupted the harmony, the melody consents to hit E when it should—twice!—to form half-cadences, but it goes absolutely nowhere; we never get the confirmation or satisfaction that a full cadence would bring. By the time the listener has heard each section four times, they'll feel an existential ache like they never got invited to an important funeral and will always have unfinished business with the departed. Very sexy. BS2's track (柱時計 ["Wall Clock"] by Phalene) adds madness to the sadness. I didn't transcribe it, but I heard bassoon, chimes, accordion, piano, violin, and... clock. The piano harmony waltzes between depressingly diminished and unsettlingly augmented chords, and the melody is a bassoon drone followed by a violin dirge followed by an accordion line that wouldn't be out of place in a haunted house. The 3/4(?) time lends its irresistible back-and-forth but in the instrumentation's harsh context it's more like brackish storm surge than a lovely sway across the boards. This track'll definitely get you wet, though it'll be from tears and you won't be sure whether they're of frustration or grief. So yeah, I agree with you—if BS1's sex was a tragedy then BS2's sex is the ensuing manic depression. I thought both tracks were picked quite well: The slow, slightly medieval sound fits BS1's fairy-tale framework, while the clock motif fits BS2's Wonderland-focused theme. >Not even the only one in the game Yeah, I, uh... I think maybe now I'm back to only one. Or zero. >Your anchor reincarnates, so it's a happy reunion. This actually gave me an idea that fits in with my conception of how the Labyrinth works underneath, so thanks anon!
>>4096 >The SEN mechanic is a little too bumpy to allow a player the opportunity to explore or even think about it very much. Normally it's fine to just not bother with it as much until you have what you need to more freely adjust it. >How long must I stare at it before something happens? Until your location changes.
>>3990 >I like the scribbled style, and I've no objection to puffy vulva, tfw no puffy vulva vixen to eat my man's cream out of. Creampie is out; creampuffs are the new hotness. >>4096 >Hm! I occasionally toured around my known covenantable characters but never found anything different, but I'll keep trying. This may not be what you meant, but I don't think it ever matters which covenant you have "equipped" at any given time, except for combat efficacy of course. >How long must I stare at it before something happens? Less than a half minute, but you must have 0 or less SEN. >I've not the musical education to know if either was referencing anything or writing in a style reminiscent of something, but I tried to have a little think about what they were doing. Wish I had the music knowledge to follow this analysis or read sheets. What I could understand of what you said was very thoughtful though. >Yeah, I, uh... I think maybe now I'm back to only one. Or zero. Some birds are fit to be caged. Or butchered. Stuffing optional. >This actually gave me an idea that fits in with my conception of how the Labyrinth works underneath, so thanks anon! That was just something I said to make that other anon feel better, but you're welcome. Not like anything in this game concept is 'canon' yet, I guess.
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>>4098 >Wish I had the music knowledge to follow this analysis or read sheets. I'm sorry to have waxed technical there. It's sometimes difficult to strike a balance between being specific enough to be meaningful yet not bogging things down by reciting the theory one is using to be specific. Everything I wrote on 最後の魔女 is perhaps best summarized as using a couple of elegant little tricks to manipulate us using our subconscious expectations of how certain things "should" sound to create a hopeless yet wistful mood... which when one thinks about it does reflect BS1's sex.
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Finally! Now that I've got BS2's ending G, I can finally go back through the thread and read all those spoiler tags. I refuse to contemplate ending F. >>3838 >Is it the most elaborate cuckqueaning scenario in all of fiction? If there's any cuckqueaning story grander or more elaborate, I certainly don't know of it. What a fuckin' trip that was, and that's without yet playing the three free add-ons. Glad I played the first one first; although the first few endings don't depend on knowing what happened in the previous game, the rest of them don't make much sense without. >>3856 >It's definitely elaborate to create a whole (albeit rotten) world for the man to run around in impregnating other women who are secretly other cosmic horrors like yourself but personally I would not want my man to have to wade thru oceans of blood and death and watch his loved ones succumb to madness and die repeatedly, all just to drive home the point that he always returns to me in the end, even if those other girls get to use him for a while. Is that queany? ...I guess so, in a corrupted soulslike sort of way. Establishes a certain bar, doesn't it? Can you even call yourself a real cuckquean if you haven't trapped him an infinite, ever-shifting nightmare in which you and your friends pass him around so you can each birth devouring clouds of cosmic offspring? I do wonder, though: Of all the entities who appear in BS2, which are underlying horrors manifest and which are merely figments? We might assume that all of BS1's girls, with the exception of perhaps Mary Sue/Ann and Red Hood, were done up by Mary Sue to fill out her twisted little fantasy world—supported by their appearance as books in BS2—but BS2 establishes strongly that at least some of the heroines are other cosmic horrors that the Crawling Chaos invited to partake of her(?) man. The first area of the final nightmare only contains a subset of the covenant-eligible girls (and Bill). Poor Bill. Prickett, for example, all but names herself a cosmic entity, but she doesn't obey the same rules as the other covenant heroines in that, like Node, she appears as herself even when the player is at or below 0 SEN, i.e. seeing the world without as much of a veil. I first assumed both were figments forced into the nightmare, perhaps unconsciously, by the Grimm-amalgam himself, but this theory is contradicted when Node confesses to being one of the horrors who played along during previous iterations and has borne many of the Grimm-amalgam's children. Perhaps Node and Prickett are simply different in kind from the type of entity that appears to the zero-SEN character as mojibake-spouting cosmic beasts. (I thought that perhaps the great covenant-eligible nightmares Node lists near the start of the game—Jabberwock, Jubjub, Bandersnatch, and the Queen of Hearts—might also form a separate class of their own, yet the QoH appears in the nightmare without the other three, IIRC.) Not to mention something that bothers me even now, with supposedly all the non-DLC content clear: Whose doing is that ruined prison dug underneath the southern shore of the Carrol River? Its entrance, placement, and environment called the BS1 prison to mind, but what doesn't line up at all is the fact that the cells were labelled for all four of the story's prime movers: The Grimm-amalgam, Mary Sue, Red Hood, and Alice. Also, there's a snowman near the boat near the southwestern corner of the Carrol River that gives a hint on how to access the Hidden Route, which is something Alice wouldn't put in, and that Mary Sue can't. The only other snowman I've seen around is in the Bandersnatch's cave, and that together with the others points to the suggestion of yet another layer of eldritch shenanigans; eventually Grimm's going to accidentally creampie girl-Azathoth and end all universes. Is that what we're going to do in Black Souls 3? Go big or go home. And just what the hell was that number in the final Nightmare? There's nowhere to input something like it except... huh, now that I think of it, Node's levelling up prompt is six digits, isn't it? That can't be it... >>4050 >>4051 >>4053 >I'd argue the one most likely to lead to Black Souls 2 is the one where you go live with Red Hood. Now that I've been through the Hidden Route to ending G, I agree—Red Hood explicitly referencing the period where she, Grimm, and Poro lived together is convincing, although the dialogue during the Nightmare where Mary Sue/Ann says that she finally understands Baphomet's feelings as a mother who can no longer understand her children does somewhat point back to Ending D. >>4079 >Interesting places to do that include bonfires, bosses, covenantable NPCs, that mirror at the start of Lutwidge, that one spot with all the wagons near the fountain in Lutwidge, and wherever the ground hint messages have no apparent meaning. I specifically went out of my way to rush around all the campfires on my second loop, and still found myself nearly under-levelled for the Beggar Dog miniboss that gates off her second consensual scene, which in my mind confirms that finding her is probably supposed to be something you do after clearing the game; if you go into your first BS2 run completely clean, you may not even know that Red Hood's around at all. >Besides, I said her virginity - what you're describing hardly counts, does it? I did end up getting her "(Secret)" scene; when you see sex open with dialogue about how the cucked party just finished crying themselves to sleep before you even begin then you know you're really in for it. >>4097 >>4098 Thank you both for the hints. I did it, and went to the moon! to the moon though! That was what finally confirmed two things for me: a) That high SEN represented madness, i.e. accepting the crazed world-dream, while low SEN represents seeing through to the naked horror, and b) That eldritch, possibly cosmic, entities were in the mix. I have no idea why the Japanese find the Carol of the Bells so sPoOkY but putting the Kagamine twins singing "Iä iä! Iä iä!" to its tune was something I'd certainly never heard before.
>>4110 >Whose doing is that ruined prison dug underneath the southern shore of the Carrol River? If you'd like to find out, try raping Jabberwock but losing the ensuing battle. >And just what the hell was that number Try looking through the Bonus game folder. >her "(Secret)" scene But did you do it until you got the hidden variation?
>>4111 >did you do it until you got the hidden variation? ...I'm never going to be able to properly finish this game, am I?
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>>4079 It's said that for choking play it's important to put pressure on the sides rather than the front where the windpipe is or the back where the spine is. Honestly though, it's just not something to attempt if you don't know what you're doing. >>4110 Grats on getting ending G! Now get B and H and you can call yourself hardcore. :P >I refuse to contemplate ending F. If you have a save before the choice, you should at least see that branch real quick, just so you finally have full context for >>3838 >I agree—Red Hood explicitly referencing the period where she, Grimm, and Poro lived together is convincing, although the dialogue during the Nightmare where Mary Sue/Ann says that she finally understands Baphomet's feelings as a mother who can no longer understand her children does somewhat point back to Ending D. I think the basic facts of the relationship between Mary and Baphomet/Shub-Niggurath are in place regardless of what ending you get. It's just Ending D that makes them explicit to the player. Whereas I don't see why Grimm spends an extended period living quietly with Red Hood and Poro if you don't get that specific ending. >That eldritch, possibly cosmic, entities were in the mix. Not only that, some of them are specifically identifiable if you put the clues together (or if the game outright tells you). For example, Alice (the primary one) is fucking Nyarlathotep, unusual among Lovecraft characters for not only caring about Earth and humans but being actively malicious. >I have no idea why the Japanese find the Carol of the Bells so sPoOkY but I think instrumental versions are kind of dramatic and spooky-sounding if you don't have the preexisting cultural associations with Christmas and stuff, personally! For starters it's in a minor key, which is not normal for a joyful holiday mood! But I also think the version used in Black Souls is not quite the standard one, with all its brass and percussion. Have you heard the tune used for spooks in other Japanese works? >putting the Kagamine twins singing "Iä iä! Iä iä!" to its tune was something I'd certainly never heard before. Hm, I've attached the music that plays for me. Is yours different? The music that played in my visit didn't have those particular sounds in it, and I believe wasn't a version of Carol of the Bells. >>4047 I may as well tell you now that "SEN" is "MADNES" reversed with the "DAM" part cut off, because that's wordplay that makes sense if you're an ESL Japanese person I guess. Pic related. >>4115 >...I'm never going to be able to properly finish this game, am I? Gosh, it's a little early to say that, isn't it? If you haven't even played any DLC content? Haven't met cutie Kuti or Mabel, or seen Node's beautiful hometown? Anyway, it's true there are many little scene variations one could get, such as having Griffy along when you meet the ghoul, or having Mock Turtle Soup to give her in the throne room, or finding the swimsuit to give Mocky. In this case there's just a 20% chance of an additional CG in that scene - only when viewing it outside the gallery, I believe - and afterward it sets a flag that alters those characters' dialogue just a little bit. It's too soon to ask who best girl is, but which Alice do you prefer? You know, despite the obvious drawbacks shared by each. Oh yeah, what'd you think of your reunion with Victoria? She's pretty cute in her full succubus form, right?
>>4117 >I may as well tell you now that "SEN" is Wasn't SEN also an actual mechanic in a Lovecraft-based tabletop?
>>4117 >>4110 I thought Carol of the Bells was used as it was because of things like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB39OqlJsm4
>>4117 >Alice (the primary one) is fucking Nyarlathotep, unusual among Lovecraft characters for not only caring about Earth and humans but being actively malicious. I thought so. The "crawling" epithet had me suspicious. Alice is a bit of a departure from the Black Pharaoh's usual forms, but the wonderful thing about using cosmic horror is that lots of things can be made tomwork as long as you make its ultimate motivation sufficiently and believably unknowable. >For starters it's in a minor key, which is not normal for a joyful holiday mood! But I also think the version used in Black Souls is not quite the standard one, with all its brass and percussion. The Ukrainian folk tune that the four-note ostinato comes from probably arose long before the major/minor split had settled in; it starts on B♭ (first note/tonic of B♭ major), then comes to rest on G (tonic of G minor, which shares all the same tones), but the harmony that Leontovych built around it to make the "Shchedryk" tune we know does have a strangely solemn sound considering that it's supposed to be sung by a celebrating sparrow. Reminds me a little of "We Three Kings" or "God Rest You Merry, Gentlemen" in that respect. It's true that ラスボス5.ogg is a little stronger and grander than you usually hear the Carol done, though it's been so extensively covered and interpreted that there are probably bigger and weirder interpretations out there. >Have you heard the tune used for spooks in other Japanese works? I feel like I have, though that might be recent memories of BS1. Was that in BS1? All memory outside of Black Souls blurs. >I've attached the music that plays for me. Is yours different? Yes, it was! I've attached the version that played for me. The track you posted puts a few effects over the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society's "Demon Sultan Azathoth"; the same Historical Society also produced the "Carol of the Old Ones" that >>4120 posted. The tabletop Call of Cthulhu that >>4119 mentions is popular in Japanese tabletop culture, having infiltrated out from there into general otaku culture, and as such they've produced a fair few covers of the Lovecraftian carols. I couldn't find the version I heard, but here's a version I picked at random when I was searching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7vCQJ0J49I (note the "Iä iä! Iä iä!" in this version too, even though its lyrics are different). I wouldn't be surprised if, for many members of the a DLsite-distributed RPGMaker H-game's Japanese target audience, that's the first association Carol of the Bells might bring to mind. Given that putting the version you heard into BS2 is a straight-up infringement of the HPLHS's copyright, it's not so surprising that the creator(s) chose to swap it out in favour of a track that under a legal lens is just a performance of "Shchedryk" with original Japanese lyrics. >that's wordplay that makes sense if you're an ESL Japanese person I guess I can believe that. >>4119 mentions Call of Cthulhu, but that game uses the SANity stat; perhaps SEN comes off to a Japanese audience as a droll, multilayered little reference instead of a nonsensical misspelling? >Gosh, it's a little early to say that, isn't it? If you haven't even played any DLC content? Haven't met cutie Kuti or Mabel, or seen Node's beautiful hometown? Ending G, I said to myself, I said, and with only twenty five hours on the file! Sixty hours with a guide, pshaw, I said—and now I see I was mistaken, gravely wrong, for my feeble attempts at completion have merely allowed that pattern of gaps in the CG gallery to whisper of a game far larger than I ever, in my hubris, thought to grasp. Why was I so foolish as to by lured into this electronic tar-pit by an imageboard's foul mutterings? ...which is to say yes, I do want to see Node's home town. >which Alice do you prefer? Pic related, obviously. But assuming you mean the three basic Alice-forms, I had a little peek at Mother Alice on my second trip through and I didn't like her as much as Little Sister Alice, who I thought was cutest. The way the game went out of its way to repeatedly tell me how incredibly blood-related both Little Sister and Mother were to my character during the post-rescue sex scene stood out just a little. >what'd you think of your reunion with Victoria? Her sex battle was a fun little surprise. I didn't go back for another bout after getting the jump scare to see if I could get any other content, though—places to be, idols to date, you know.
>lots of things can be made to work as long as you make its ultimate motivation sufficiently and believably unknowable I agree, but I do feel the motivations of reproduction and conquest, with perhaps a side of creative expression and making or remaking a world to your tastes is all too relatable, perhaps uncomfortably so. Not that I can talk, since were it within my power, I might well choose to rip open a portal to the monstergirl dimension so I can finally have demihuman demiwives to share. (Happy October Surprise, Earth!) >I feel like I have, though that might be recent memories of BS1. Was that in BS1? All memory outside of Black Souls blurs. Yeah, the same versions of "Carol of the Bells" used when fighting the final boss of BS1 Ending D are used for stages of the fight against BS2 Ending G final boss and I think other places too. I think they also reuse the Mary Sue fight themes. >Yes, it was! I've attached the version that played for me. The track you posted puts a few effects over the Hm, thanks for sharing that. I prefer the version that I heard, by far, but I see why they might have had to change it! >I can believe that. >>4119 mentions Call of Cthulhu, but that game uses the SANity stat; perhaps SEN comes off to a Japanese audience as a droll, multilayered little reference instead of a nonsensical misspelling? Ah, that would make it a more understandable bit of wordplay. >Sixty hours with a guide, pshaw, I said For what it's worth, it does seem like there have been some changes since I played, aside from that music. You found Red Hood for the first time much more easily than I recall. Perhaps the DLC content will be easier too? Though part of me will be disappointed if the final boss of Winterbell is no longer an epic struggle that takes a literal hour on its own. >I had a little peek at Mother Alice on my second trip through and I didn't like her as much as Little Sister Alice, who I thought was cutest. The way the game went out of its way to repeatedly tell me Speaking of Alice varieties, did you get the scene for losing to the final boss of the Hidden Route? It's pretty crazy, right? "I have finally understood human love" on top of that image is... warped. But hey, surely it just means she believes the essence of cuckqueaning is your man never having to choose? Though usually that doesn't take the form of being all possible things to him, unless you're a cosmic horror. I recall a somewhat sweeter version of this in that one Spidernon story, Husband of the Swarm I think it was called? I agree with your taste in Alice though. Poor Red Hood. Perhaps it's good she doesn't accompany us the whole way. Grimm's sanity really is a fragile thing in BS2, but I guess that's how it is when you were already an amalgam of minds put together by a nutjob eldritch fairy and then got mindfucked again by the Crawling Chaos. >was a fun little surprise. I didn't go back for another bout after getting the Aw, she has good covenant benefits though, and she only does that once! Although what happens if you try to rape her and lose is... grisly, like a worse version of her Leaf-corrupted ending in BS1. I actually used hers for quite a while, at least until I got Mabel's panty. Well, you'll get her on the way to ending B if you pursue that. I will say I'm not sure what fairytale, if any, she is based on, despite appearing in BS1. Perhaps cute succubus maids are their own raison d'etre.
>>4127 >I do feel the motivations of reproduction and conquest, with perhaps a side of creative expression and making or remaking a world to your tastes is all too relatable, perhaps uncomfortably so How could it not be? Unlimited reality-warping power is so seductive that pretty much every mythic well brims with warnings against hubris. So, that's where divine checks and balances come into play: Just ensure your cult of mortal worship knows that, if you start with the divine capriciousness, they can pray over your head to your god-consort that you be given a divine spanking. You can even give them a constellation shaped like a hairbrush to look at. >Happy October Surprise, Earth! To be fair, who among us wouldn't smash the monstergirl portal button? >You found Red Hood for the first time much more easily than I recall. That was just dumb luck, confirmed as such by the guide I later turned to. I think that the way they gate off Red Hood for entire runs depending on a very early trigger is an example of the kind of design I complained about in my rant above. >Perhaps the DLC content will be easier too? Considering I got one-hit by a couple of straggling DLC enemies on the Carrol River and two-hit by the denizens of the deep sea, it's looking like the answer might be "no". >did you get the scene for losing to the final boss of the Hidden Route? Many, many times; I lost to that boss enough that I started just hitting alt+F4 instead of sitting through the scene again. I took Alice's statement there to mean "I have finally figured out the human lever labelled 'love' to my satisfaction; there is no further need to experiment", which makes sense considering that's the moment where the veil is wholly ripped away, there being no further need for it. What Alice seeks is to be loved only; she doesn't seem capable of loving. Which is a shame, considering that some of the other horrors she shares the Grimm-amalgam with seem to be capable of being very sweet—Dodo comes to mind—but if it came right down to it, would their affection turn out to be detached manipulation as well? >I recall a somewhat sweeter version of this in that one Spidernon story, Husband of the Swarm I think it was called? Yes, that's the one. I'm still not sure how the author managed to make such grotesqueness sweet and enjoyable, but I'm glad he did. I always found that author a little hit-or-miss, which is understandable considering the giant gap between his fetishes and ours, but when he hits he hits such that the gap becomes irrelevant really something special. >I guess that's how it is when you were already an amalgam of minds put together by a nutjob eldritch fairy and then got mindfucked again by the Crawling Chaos. The actual provenance of the Grimm-amalgam is a little unclear to me. Black Souls 1 establishes that he was created by Mary Sue—at least, that's what she, a known plagarist, asserts—but shows him together with Alice before Mary Sue stages her takeover. Both BS1 and BS2 show that there's a lot of history involving Grimm (and, let's be honest, his dick) that we never get to see e.g. Lillith, so it seems to me that by the time we see him in BS1 he may well already have gone through several rounds of being passed around and played with, to the extent that some of the less... distant entities have begun developing a distaste for it. I did like that Ending G gives the captive Alice-essence a final rescue, though with how strongly the game hammered on the salacious rumors of Carrol being a dirty fuckin' pedo, even in the suppressed memories, it still felt a little... off. I chose to interpret the memories as being a kind of deep programming put into place to create the obsession that the Crawling Chaos desired, hence why viewing them is necessary to confronting it, and the final splitting-off of his ghost as being a kind of purification, a way to leave behind all the twisting and alterations that he'd suffered as part of the Grimm-amalgam, including those that interpreted his feelings towards Alice as full-blown sexual obsession. >you'll get her on the way to ending B if you pursue that In progress. Needing to get Wolris as part of Ending B, which means completing DLC1 has necessarily meant a fair bit of frustration, but it turns out that the Chaos Dungeon has quite a few little quirks that make acquisition of new and exciting types of Black Soul a relatively straightforward affair, and its chaotic nature is actually quite diverting. Plus Mabel a cute. I was trying for a full book run this time as well, but hosed it this time around by forgetting that I needed to view Catherine's statue before confronting the Dean. Still, I managed to get some extra scenes I hadn't seen before, including pic related, which to me was the H-game equivalent of a bowl of warm, tasty soup.
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>>4134 If you are having difficulty, one thing I might suggest is visiting the shroom village with 0 SEN, and then doing it up to 3 more times on subsequent cycles. Also fighting the cheeky oyster, because the ultimate upgraded ability of the Wand of R'lyeh is quite useful. >Unlimited reality-warping power is so seductive that pretty much every mythic well brims with warnings against hubris. So, that's where divine checks and balances come into play: Just ensure your cult of mortal worship knows that, if you start with the divine capriciousness, they can pray over your head to your god-consort that you be given a divine spanking. You can even give them a constellation shaped like a hairbrush to look at. Love to go on imageboards and pick up new sexual fantasies, like being a pampered goddess who gets spanked for hubris by the supreme god. Cuckquean pantheon when? >To be fair, who among us wouldn't smash the monstergirl portal button? Probably women who don't want to share a man and don't have much to offer one besides good looks or hole - having to compete with the internal muscles of a snek or the raw allure of a succ is probably their idea of hell. Also I guess people with phobias who don't want to have to deal with snakegirls and spidergirls or else be branded a racist. >I think that the way they gate off Red Hood for entire runs depending on a very early trigger is an example of the kind of design I complained about in my rant above. Damn, from your posts, I was really hoping that was something they had changed. >Considering I got one-hit by Yeah so, those particular enemies and some of the deep sea enemies, I actually 100% the whole fucking game without ever defeating. I did manage to beat God's Odd Fish and Blackbeard though! ...not that the rewards were worthwhile. >some of the other horrors she shares the Grimm-amalgam with seem to be capable of being very sweet—Dodo comes to mind—but if it came right down to it, would their affection turn out to be detached manipulation as well? Based on some of the revelations from random libraries in the Chaos Dungeon, stuffed bears in Winterbell, and the events if you rape+imprison oyster and Kuti, I think some of them have come to truly love Grimm. Is that because they've played roles for so long that they've become the mask? Hard to say. I really wish there were an ending in which Grimm got to absorb Mary Sue's power, and take his place among the gods, with a little harem of the ones who truly love him in their way, such as Node, Prickett, Mabel, Cheshire, and a thoroughly spanked and reformed Kuti. I'm not biased just because those are super cute, I swear. Sadly it seems the closest we get is Ending C of BS1.
>>4134 >>4135 On the subject of the Chaos Dungeon, make sure to go back and read those candles after beating a boss for a bit of extra lore. I'd also recommend to keep on exploring the dungeon after beating the Old King, some treasures are only available for you to find after winning that fight, including a few incredibly useful spells and a very unique weapon you probably won't expect.
>>4142 I mentioned Mary's Magical Wand before but I'm not aware of any spells unique to Mabel's dungeons, much less incredibly useful ones.
>>4135 >one thing I might suggest I managed to breeze right past that part even though I explored some of the Mushroom Village with 0 SEN; figured anything important would be in the middle section, i.e. the "end". Finally, the mystery of the Black Rabbit Ring is solved! >Cuckquean pantheon when? Years and years ago, on old /cuckquean/, there was an outline of a white mage who felt guilty for betraying her fidelity goddess's tenets by being a cuckquean, but then discovers that a closely-guarded part of the goddess's lore reveals that she, too, encourages her divine hubby to spill his ambrosia in other cornucopiae. >I actually 100% the whole fucking game without ever defeating. I did manage to beat God's Odd Fish and Blackbeard though! ...not that the rewards were worthwhile. I couldn't figure out how to avoid Blackbeard, so I ended up using a bit of Chaos Dungeon grinding plus a guide to finally get rid of him. This way of playing is becoming the norm for these DLC parts, with the joy of organic experimentation and exploration replaced by repeated, headlong smacks into a vertical difficulty curve with no alternative paths available. But I did manage to finally get through to Kuti, who was enough of a qt to make it almost worth it. I can't say the same for the rest of Ending B, which I thought was a bit of an anticlimax considering the effort involved. Now, as for DLC2: Mabel's cute and all, but the Chaos Dungeon's jewellery-box appeal wears off once the "random" environments start to repeat, and the difficulty difference between depths... 4 and 5, I think it is? That sudden difficulty increase is a touch hard to swallow when you know that's what's in store for the next hundred layers is more of the same set of maps. I appreciate how they've tried to mix it up with things like the bellringers, the library/workroom layers, and so on, but the repetitive nature of the fundamental structure just wears me down. So I thought I'd have a poke around DLC3. I thought the change to a more survival horror feel was neat at first, but when I hit the first boss, all that was abruptly ripped away and I ended up right back where I was at >>4047 . What's that, hints.txt? I need 10k-20k stats to even think about coming here? When a single coloured soul increases said stats by 2 or 3? So, what, something like 150 million souls of investment required or I get bounced by Nurse Call? I believe in appreciating what other people have made, even if and especially when that appreciation requires some investment on the audience's part, but that contract is void as soon as you treat the audience's time with contempt by requiring their time without any new gameplay or other satisfaction along the way. No doubt there are those who absolutely love hours of grinding and experimenting with different equipment combinations: DLC3's rewards are perhaps for them more than me. >I really wish there were an ending in which Grimm got to absorb Mary Sue's power, and take his place among the gods, with a little harem of the ones who truly love him in their way That would be nice, which means we'll never get to see it. >a thoroughly spanked and reformed Kuti I found Kuti quite sweet. I tried imprisoning her to see what you meant, but all that did was cost me a piece of my soul, clipped from the part next to the chunk I had to snap off to get the Goose Who Laid The Golden Egg book. Maybe there's some other content of cutieKuti's I haven't seen. Cheeky Oyster thoroughly deserved her correction💢💢💢 though; I think hers is the only occupied cell in my present prison. >>4142 >make sure to go back and read those candles after beating a boss for a bit of extra lore I did spot that, thought it was a nice touch. With how often the bosses repeat, though, I'm finding myself just holding down CTRL so I can save after the fights. >I'd also recommend to keep on exploring the dungeon after beating the Old King, some treasures are only available for you to find after winning that fight, including a few incredibly useful spells and a very unique weapon you probably won't expect. I'll keep that in mind if I go back to DLC2. Right now, one of the problems I have with that area is that the plethora of chests never contain anything I want, and just end up clogging my already-overfull inventory.
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>>4134 >literary criticism I wonder how sincere this is, considering later revelations. It might just be that the conspirators have to talk shit about each other so Alice doesn't catch on. Tangentially, at one point, while walking down the stairs to the True Ultimate Really We Promise This Time Final Boss, a certain character can ask you random conversation topics from a pool of about 10 or so, one of which is what kind of Garden you would make, if you could. Since it's a game and not a real conversation, your answers are from a predetermined list, all of the form "I would make one like [area that has already featured in the Black Souls series]" but it's interesting to consider. >I lost to that boss enough that I started just hitting alt+F4 instead of sitting through the scene again In RPG Maker games it's usually faster to hit F12, or F5 on more recent engines. I know that's not the main point of your comment, but if you're doing it a lot then the time savings may add up. >>4154 >wait a minute, is that Bill mpreg? Perhaps being a lil trappy boi was just a strat to stand out from the crowd and get more of Grimm's seed. Judging by the representation numbers in that pic, though, I'd say Grimm may be canonically fond of smug titty birds. >I couldn't figure out how to avoid Blackbeard, Huh, I don't remember that being particularly difficult. Does Hidden Body not do it? If it doesn't, are you also not using Run Like Dodo? >When a single coloured soul increases said stats by 2 or 3? So, what, something like 150 million souls of investment required or I get bounced by You can, and probably should, buy tainted black souls from train conductor guy after you've hit the level cap; I forget his name, but he's in the same map as Victoria. It's more efficient for the stats you get than individual colored souls. Also, to be honest, the way I got past that boss was remembering I can reset the difficulty modifier to 0 by interacting with the statue in Node's library. >Right now, one of the problems I have with that area is that the plethora of chests never contain anything I want, and just end up clogging my already-overfull inventory. I don't disagree about DLC2's issues, but you do at least begin to get +3 improved versions of accessories when going deep enough. The stuffed bear in Node's library also offers storage, not that I ever used it. There's also the dungeon that starts you off at level 1 with nothing at all, makes it easier to sort through your inventory if nothing else - though I don't think it offers greater rewards any faster than the regular one. >I tried imprisoning her to see what you meant, but all that did was cost me a piece of my soul Would you say your soul is now a little... blacker? Haha, but I'm sure it hits different for you at the moment. I expect most people who imprison her do so because they're either on a run to imprison all the women, or they saw what happens after enough progress on the library candle meter and making children with Kuti. Poor Mocky, Griffy, and Miranda. Sadly, there's no option to reset the cycle and then go ask her specifically not to flood the surface and kill people, and I'm not sure why other than that we're not allowed to have nice things. Anyway, there's a thing that happens between her and Node later if you imprison her, if you haven't seen it. Speaking of the sea, have you found the Terrible Tragic Hotel? It's accessed from the north wall of the sunken ship and I'm honestly not sure how we're supposed to find it with no guide. >Years and years ago, on old /cuckquean/, there was an outline of a white mage who felt guilty for betraying her fidelity goddess's tenets by being a cuckquean, but then discovers that a closely-guarded part of the goddess's lore reveals that she, too, encourages her divine hubby to spill his ambrosia in other cornucopiae. Ah yes, I believe that was part of a "game concept" totally separate from the EO-inspired thing. Didn't go anywhere but I had fun reading it. I should figure out how to archive good threads for personal use, before 8ch goes down for real.
>>4156 >what kind of Garden you would make, if you could. Considering what Mabel says after she shows you her lovely eyes, that may be rather pointed, as such questions go. (Yes, I went back and beat DLC2. Turns out that a) there are only a few bullshit encounters in the deck, b) the blue faeries give you souls in proportion to your level, making it much easier to get more Old Ones' souls from Mabel as you go.) >it's usually faster to hit F12, or F5 on more recent engines That's a useful tip, thank you. >mpreg? Perhaps being a lil trappy boi was just a strat to stand out from the crowd and get more of Grimm's seed. Then why his anguish when you see him in the final Little Girl's Nightmare? Unless cosmic horror shenanigans mean he can still reproduce as a "boy" but is torn up for some other reason we can't comprehend. I'm going to file this under "not comprehensible without succumbing to madness first". >Judging by the representation numbers in that pic, though, I'd say Grimm may be canonically fond of smug titty birds. He's got good taste, then. Dodo's cute, and her being BEEG makes her cuter. >Does Hidden Body not do it? If it doesn't, are you also not using Run Like Dodo? I was using both, but he saw straight through Hidden Body and I wanted to be able to explore the depths at my leisure. It was much more peaceful once I had him gone. >t's more efficient for the stats you get than individual colored souls. Yes, I was just using the coloured souls as a baseline indicator of cost. I ended up mainly buying Mabel's extra-large Old One-brand souls but before that I was using the conductor's. No idea if using Mabel's was more efficient than the conductor's, but that's what I did. >the way I got past that boss was remembering I can reset the difficulty modifier to 0 by interacting with the statue in Node's library. I think I'm still on Difficulty 0, though I might have to double-check. Honestly, after devising a desperate method to do gigantic amounts of suicidal damage, only to watch it resurrect itself FOUR times in a ROW I am forming certain Views. >I don't disagree about DLC2's issues, but you do at least begin to get +3 improved versions of accessories when going deep enough I also got the Bandersnatch's sword, which has an ability that claims to let off a big attack if you charge it nine times in a row, but it's never worked for me. I also found a book with Catherine's Wheel in it, which was a very useful spell and perhaps what >>4142 was referring to. >have you found the Terrible Tragic Hotel? I just went and had a look—thank you for the tip—and that sure was something. Something that supports the idea that the ending that leads to BS2 involved the full book collection, which IIRC was only Ending C? But Red Hood's still okay, so maybe as she says, Grimm's seeing leftover memories from an alternate Ending C world-line.
>Yes, I was just using the coloured souls as a baseline indicator of cost. I ended up mainly buying I ran the numbers at some point; leveling up is best while that's available, but when it comes to the "soul" items, the "black", "tainted black", and "outer one" are all equally good value for money. So even though you can't get "outer one" souls from Black Conductor Hein, it's no problem. >I think I'm still on Difficulty 0, though I might have to double-check. What I had forgotten, and which you also might not realize, is that the difficulty ticks up with each cycle, so you may well be on Difficulty 9, as I was. To be perfectly fair to the game, this is one thing the help files tell you about. I don't think there's any gameplay advantage to keeping the difficulty above 0, so may as well not make things harder than they need to be. >Honestly, after devising a desperate method to do gigantic amounts of suicidal damage, only to watch it resurrect itself FOUR times in a ROW Apparently at half health, Nurse Call grants death immunity to the whole enemy troop, similar to the player's "Requiem" ability. It only lasts for "3 turns", though. >which was a very useful spell and perhaps what >>4142 was referring to. ...other anon was correct; I plumbed the game files, and in addition to Catherine's Wheel, all of these seem only available through DLC2: Royal Tea, Quick Dance, Holy Banner, Black Wave, Black Slash, and Awakening. All quite good. Clearly, I ran out of patience for Mabel's marvels too quickly. >I just went and had a look—thank you for the tip—and that sure was something. Something that There are some hints that world-lines might not be entirely discrete once branched, but it could also be that the timeline leading to BS2 (if there is only one such) involved one or many failed attempts to use the Hotel correctly and reach Ending C. However, Red Hood says that Grimm never used the Hotel, so at least this indicates she never found out about it if he did.
>>4159 >all of these seem only available through DLC2 Chaos Blast too. >don't ask for much do you mabel Does seem like she's pinning her hopes on that, doesn't it? At least it's a serious and believable motive to need you. And as schemers go, Yog-Sothoth is probably in a good position to make mad-seeming gambits work. >unless you drink yourself to death first Probably impossible, per Winterbell revelations.
>>4145 >but I'm not aware of any spells unique to Mabel's dungeons, much less incredibly useful ones Black Slash became a bread-and-butter for me in DLC 3, and Chaos Blast was blatantly OP. There were other useful spells too, mainly derived from the final learnable skills your party members in 1 could learn.
>>4154 >But I did manage to finally get through to Kuti, who was enough of a qt to make it almost worth it. She's great. Mistreating her will easily put you through more guilt than just about any other girl in the game. Arguably, the most powerful jump scare in the game is also tied to her.
>>4156 >and I'm honestly not sure how we're supposed to find it with no guide. There was a bloodstain that made mention of a detour, but it was in an assholishly misleading spot.
>>4157 >the blue faeries As a side note, I've heard datamining let people know that the blue and brown fairies are named Sylvie and Bruno, from the Lewis Carroll book of the same name.
>>4159 >>4160 Off-topic, but I don’t understand panty-jobs like in those pictures. The visual is fine and all but surely actually doing it would chafe him?
>>4166 >cutfags
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>>4159 >you may well be on Difficulty 9, as I was Nope! I checked, and sure enough I was on Difficulty 0 and still getting kicked about, having adjusted it downwards after I came through on my latest cycle. >Apparently at half health, Nurse Call grants death immunity to the whole enemy troop, similar to the player's "Requiem" ability. It also seems to have a chance to unconditionally resurrect, regardless of circumstance. Only after trying a desperate strategy a few times—that being to get myself as close to 1HP as possible, then load up as many damage/critical enhancers as possible before using the Sword of Emnity's Deadman's Blow—did it suddenly decide to stay dead after being knocked over for the first time. Then I went up the stairs to the Founding Doctor Florence fight, and... yeah, that's it. The difference in the way this game plays is no longer just of degree, but also of kind. I'm not even angry with it, just resigned to the fact that the maker(s) wanted to make a different sort of game in this section to one I want to play. >Clearly, I ran out of patience for Mabel's marvels too quickly. After I found the defective Bandersnatch sword and Catherine's Wheel, I found nothing else interesting and eventually the depth increased to beyond the point where I could reasonably survive, even evading and skipping whatever fighting I could. So I'd say it's not your fault for not realizing that there's that kind of loot down there, since I apparently only got mine through sheer luck. >>4160 >At least it's a serious and believable motive to need you. It's surprisingly straightforward and practical, too, as motives in this series go. >>4162 >mainly derived from the final learnable skills your party members in 1 could learn. I did notice that about Catherine's Wheel, even though I never actually used those ultimate skills, having already finished everything before I figured out how to get them. >>4163 >Arguably, the most powerful jump scare in the game is also tied to her. The one that happens when you visit her in her cell for the first time? I certainly didn't enjoy that one. >>4165 >the blue and brown fairies are named Sylvie and Bruno, from the Lewis Carroll book of the same name That's a nice touch. Clearly the creator(s) boned up on their stuff to create their RPGMaker porn game. You love to see it. ...so, I guess that's Black Souls. I didn't end up getting Ending H, but I can probably live without it. I'm glad to have played these nutty little gems, and glad to have had such interesting discussion about them. I had a look at the unlocked CG galleries after talking to the Big Fluffy in the Room of Reminiscence, and there are some nice bits in there I never did figure out how to get, like the tea party foursome, the bunny suits, plus the downright strange, like an Alice doll, complete with joints and even the three Liddel sisters?. I assume that's all locked behind DLC3. I did play fair, though, and didn't look at the new heroines. Without getting to know them, their scenes would be pretty meaningless anyway. I wonder what motivated this circle to make them? There's a not-inconsiderable amount of effort in these, especially in the rather inventive reworking of the basic RPGMaker mechanics and occasionally-exquisite balancing and progression. Atmosphere's a hard thing to nail down, but I feel these games managed it. I'm glad they exist.
>>4166 (checked) >>4167 I think it depends on the softness of the material. Some undies are softer than others. Circumcisions may be a factor, but probably not the only one. As a point of reference, I used to have a (cut) bf who liked me to stroke him off with my hair, which is soft but not quite "silky soft" like the conditioner advertisements promise; I definitely have panties that are softer. (I know what you're thinking, but I only did the hairjobs when I was about to wash my hair anyway.) >>4168 >eventually the depth increased to beyond the point where I could reasonably survive It caps at 19, from what I can tell, whereas the "difficulty" meter in the main game goes up to 9. The unique loot appears to be all available at 8 though. >I wonder what motivated this circle to make them? Labor of love, I think. They wanted to tell a story and make a game that they would've wanted to play. Plus, the sheer reference pool makes me suspect a genuine interest in all that source material. I learned about a lot of new things about folk tales and Lovecraftian mythos from Googling random stuff I ran into in BS2. And honestly, I'm glad they did. We're fortunate to live in a world where a developer or team had the exact combination of interests and talents that led to this creative little story world existing. I have no idea if there'll ever be another work from this circle, but personally I'll try it if there is. >...so, I guess that's Black Souls. I didn't end up getting Ending H, but I can probably live without it. I'm glad to have played these nutty little gems, and glad to have had such interesting discussion about them. Well anon, I'm glad you had fun with it (and us~) while it lasted. If you've given up on playing legitimately, are you interested in cheating so you can at least meet the new characters, see the sights, learn the conclusion of the various plotlines, and experience the weird little CYOA bit with the Liddell sisters? Now that I've gone to the trouble of cracking the game open, it shouldn't be much trouble to whip up some kinda instant-win cheat I could upload.
>>4170 Hairjobs never once crossed my mind. Thanks for introducing me to something weird. I like it.
>>4168 >giving up at Florence What a shame.
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>>4166 >>4167 >>4170 >I think it depends on the softness of the material. Some undies are softer than others. Smoothness too, surely. I've only ever handled cut penises, but past a certain pace and grip I've found adequate lubrication essential even when things are only skin-on-skin (skin-on-mucosa? Skin-on-involuntarily-keratinised-mucosa? You see my point) or friction takes over. Naively, if I were to give an underwear-job I'd probably still supply most of the actual stimulation with a lubed hand on shaft/head and then use the undies as textural and visual extra e.g. using the other hand to rub them over his balls, lightly over his shaft, and so on. Underthing-on-penis connoisseurs would find it very gauche, no doubt. >hairjobs Just like in my oriental pornographs! But seriously, the first thing I imagined when I read that was a kind of two-hand cat's cradle within which the penis is held suspended, and the second thing was a kind of loose fuckable braid. I assume the reality was more like hair looped over the member and then enclosed by a gentle hand. >>4170 >pic I know I gushed about them before, but those character designs, damn. Black Souls approaches ZUN levels of design vs. illustration execution mismatch. >I learned about a lot of new things about folk tales and Lovecraftian mythos from Googling random stuff I ran into in BS2. Me too. I knew the Japanese were nuts for all things Alice in Wonderland, but I was surprised not only that they know so much of the European canon of folk and fairy stories, but which ones ended up popular there. I'd never come across the Town Musicians of Bremen or A Dog of Flanders, for example, but apparently they're both known and surprisingly beloved in Japan and Korea both. >We're fortunate to live in a world where a developer or team had the exact combination of interests and talents that led to this creative little story world existing. I have no idea if there'll ever be another work from this circle, but personally I'll try it if there is. I saw a few references to a possible Black Souls 3 as well as another Red Hood game while I was trawling for guides and hints (no, Google, you cretinous, blind-to-anything-not-on-Wikia disappointment of a search engine, I am not simply misremembering the title of Dark Souls 2), but I've no idea whether these are credible or how far off they might be. As I mentioned upthread, I find the two Black Souls games to be very inspiring. They've got plenty of what I love about doujin work in general and weird RPGMaker games in particular, which is soul, if you'll pardon the pun. >If you've given up on playing legitimately, are you interested in cheating so you can at least meet the new characters, see the sights, learn the conclusion of the various plotlines, and experience the weird little CYOA bit with the Liddell sisters? Now that I've gone to the trouble of cracking the game open, it shouldn't be much trouble to whip up some kinda instant-win cheat I could upload. I... kind of am, yeah, but what form would such a thing take? A save file with a character edited to be overpowered? I wouldn't be able to use anything that came in executable or executable-modifying form on general principles—BlackSoulsCheat2022_fullLegit_NO-VIRUS.scr—but even if that's the only way I still appreciate the gracious offer in spite of not being able to accept it. >>4172 Sorry to disappoint you Anon. I don't see it as giving up as much as consciously deciding to to not pay the time-price that the game asks of me in return for passing this section. I could do it, but I just don't find number-crunching and build experimentation to be particularly satisfying under these conditions. Even if I struggled resentfully through Florence as I did Nurse Call, it sounds like Winterbell is going to be more-more of the same. It's not really anyone's fault, just a mismatch, and since this is extra free content anyway I don't resent it for being a little wilder in its demands than the base game I paid for. Clearly you and others ITT do enjoy this side of things, and I think it's wonderful that Black Souls scratches that itch for you.
>>4173 >as well as another Red Hood game Toro intends for Dead Red Hood to come out this year, but he recently expressed sadness over having about a 100 CGs left to draw. He also intends to make a game about the demonic princesses before finally making Black Souls 3, which seems to already have a lot of clues to what it may be like in parts of the Chaos Dungeon's lore. Did you run into the library room the Chaos Dungeon would occasionally have?
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>>4180 Yes, I did. Some of the fragments were more comprehensible than others, but together they pointed to a larger picture than before.
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>>4173 Sauce on those pages? >Smoothness too, surely. I've only ever handled cut penises, but past a certain pace and grip I've found adequate lubrication essential even when things are only skin-on-skin (skin-on-mucosa? Skin-on-involuntarily-keratinised-mucosa? You see my point) or friction takes over. Naively, if I were to give an underwear-job I'd probably still supply most of the actual stimulation with a lubed hand on shaft/head and then use the undies as textural and visual extra e.g. using the other hand to rub them over his balls, lightly over his shaft, and so on. Underthing-on-penis connoisseurs would find it very gauche, no doubt. Yes, smoothness too. Sorry, I meant to be getting at that when I wrote "silky soft" - smooth as silk, and all that - but I wasn't quite awake when I was posting. For clothjobs of any kind, lubrication does help, although it does soak into the material and truthfully you might end up stroking the shaft more with the material and playing with the head with thumb and fingers. Though it seems that for some men, getting to cum directly into the fabric/hair is part of the kink, some sort of idea about claiming/marking the area. Some men produce precum readily, which seems useful for getting pleasure out of a cut glans, and of course it comes out warm instead of cold like most lube. >Just like in my oriental pornographs! But seriously, the first thing I imagined when I read that was a kind of two-hand cat's cradle within which the penis is held suspended, and the second thing was a kind of loose fuckable braid. I assume the reality was more like hair looped over the member and then enclosed by a gentle hand. Haha, that's correct. A braid is too firm and doesn't slide enough, or slides in ways not conducive to a nice rhythmic pleasure. A cat's cradle thing... well, the aim isn't to end up accidentally doing a shibari on his cock. Although I did wrap it in the har and draw it tight once as a little joke, not meant to be sexy... which ended up being sexy enough to use once or twice for femdom purposes. Apparently that was slightly painful and appealed more because the idea than the pleasure, so your point stands. >Black Souls approaches ZUN levels of design vs. illustration execution mismatch. Not wrong. Now if only there were as much pornographic fan art of Black Souls as there is Touhou. Well, that's asking a lot, but I wish there were more than the forty or so explicit pics I found on booru sites. Is one doujin too much to ask? >I was surprised not only that they know so much of the European canon of folk and fairy stories, but which ones ended up popular there. I'd never come across the Town Musicians of Bremen or A Dog of Flanders, for example, but apparently they're both known and surprisingly beloved in Japan and Korea both. I'd encountered a lot of the stuff in BS1, and I even had Bremen in a book of folk tales as a child, but a lot of the stuff in BS2 was obscure, especially the madness/nightmare spirits. Some of them weren't so much folk tales as real people, like "killer clown Gacy". >(no, Google, you cretinous, blind-to-anything-not-on-Wikia disappointment of a search engine, I am not simply misremembering the title of Dark Souls 2) It's really irritating how Google just ignores it when you try to specify that you don't want [sufficiently popular subject or website]. I saw a Tumblr post a while back that called it "NormieSearch" because the AI just tracks what results most people end up clicking on and then tries to serve that to everyone searching for that similar thing. It's crap search, but hell, Google is really an ad company, now aren't they? They've got a conflict of interest when it comes to providing the most relevant results, since niche things probably aren't paying them ad money. >but what form would such a thing take? A save file with a character edited to be overpowered? I wouldn't be able to use anything that came in executable or executable-modifying form on general principles It may suffice to modify your save file to have max stats and all the OP skills and so on. Actually I think there are some cheat skills already in the game for dev testing purposes; I might be able to just stick them into your Grimm's skill pool. Alternatively, I could modify the item data so that throwing knives just kill everything or something like that, but I understand that might be a bit too executable-adjacent for comfort. If you would like your save modified, just upload it somewhere. >>4180 >Toro intends for Dead Red Hood to come out this year A suggestive title. In BS2 End G, Mary Ann taunted us that Hood will die soon, and that all who get close to Grimm will die, and it's a feature of both their "constitution", their fate, to whatever degree Mary Sue was capable of decreeing such things. Yet aren't the makings of a solution right in front of us? It seems that there are ways to persist after death, with your mental faculties and bodily functions more or less intact. Red Hood will have to figure out how to make that happen, but if it does, Mary Sue's conditions are fulfilled by loophole and Grimm and Red Hood can be a happy undead couple, maybe even with other girls on the side! Besides, if she did manage to get a child off Grimm then she owes it not to leave it an orphan. ...look, the actual Dark Souls devs eventually put a happy ending in one of their games, so let me dream. Regardless, it will be nice to see a Red Hood game that isn't a super rough maiden effort, even if there's no guarantee it will be queany. In the meantime, for games about Red Riding Hood fighting against eldritch forces that shape reality selfishly to the detriment of its inhabitants, I guess there's Once Ever After. >He also intends to make a game about the demonic princesses before finally making Black Souls 3, which seems to already have a lot of clues to what it may be like in parts of the Chaos Dungeon's lore. Demonic princesses... to me that term refers to the princesses in BS1, but I assume you mean the eldritch beings like Kuti, Node, and Mabel. I'm really not sure where they can go with BS3 after the events of 2, but I guess that just makes it more exciting in a way. Exciting news regardless, that we might get 3 new games from this dev. Where did you get this info? Is it a Japanese-language source? >>4182 It seems clear to me that the various writings in the Chaos Dungeon, even in that one library-like floor, were by different individuals, for whatever that is worth. Sometimes we can tell who wrote them though. Regardless, Node was right - it seems like eldritch beings are largely terrible parents. Could a hypothetical Father Grimm break the cycle of abuse and neglect?
>>4183 Those pages come from pictulia by Okito Endo, a.k.a. Ohagi-san of 70年式悠久機関. >Is one doujin too much to ask? There may well be Black Souls doujinshi in the vast, dark lake of books that lie outside the attention of consignment shops and/or scanners, sold out at the few events the circle decided to participate in, never to be reprinted. If you're lucky, one might one day surface in a web-indexed second-hand dealer. But take heart: There are definite pulses of Black Souls-related activity within Japan and in its adjacent scenes, so such material is sure to exist somewhere in the timeline. Forty tagged items is pretty good, honestly. Some things I like have no discoverable fanart whatsoever, porn or otherwise. I'm noticing that a lot of discoverability now depends on one's knowing the right tags on the right platforms at the right time, like the webring cowpaths of old. And one never knows when a platform will disappear, reorganise itself, or be subject to an uploader deleting their stuff, breaking old links and rendering anything other than carefully-catalogued personal collections useless. Like tears in rain, &tc. The #BLACKSOULS tag on Twitter yields some interesting results; pics related. >a lot of the stuff in BS2 was obscure, especially the madness/nightmare spirits. Some of them weren't so much folk tales as real people, like "killer clown Gacy". The pattern I noticed was this: Dream spirits were the characters and tales that appeared in BS1, madness spirits were folk and fairy tales new to BS2, and nightmare spirits were real villains, murderers, etc. For example, off the top of my head, Angel Manufacturer Amelia was based on infamous baby-farmer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Dyer , Canniabl Sawney Bean was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawney_Bean , and that butler who ambushes you close to the entrance of the Duchess's mansion was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archibald_Hall . >"NormieSearch" Very apt. What a shame it is. I could forgive them goosing results for general off-the-cuff searches, but they even pull their tricks when I specify things in "double quotes". The few scraps I hear from time to time of the goings-on within the Googlebeast's great gut don't tell a happy story. And anyway, many indexable things these days have been sucked into the warded corporate social gardens. There's something romantic about it, though: Perhaps a breakdown of searchability might create more weird little pockets just like this one, like how the Internet once was. Probably not, but one can always hope... >Alternatively, I could modify the item data so that throwing knives just kill everything or something like that, but I understand that might be a bit too executable-adjacent for comfort. The item data isn't wrapped into the program file itself? That might work, actually, but will the data files be compatible, given that apparently the version I have is newer enough to have that new moon music? According to the update history on DLSite, "some" BGM was changed in the latest update on 26 June 2021, and then the update before that on 04 May 2021 was bug fixes and content. So I'd guess that as long as the item data files you'd be modifying are compatible, that should work? It seems worth a shot, but only as long as it's not any significant amount of effort or time for you; I wouldn't want to put you out of your way. >I'm really not sure where they can go with BS3 after the events of 2 Bigger! Introduce new entities, shatter the fragile peace between them and let the chips fall where they may. Honestly I don't know what that would look like either, but then I couldn't have told you what BS2 would be like after playing BS1, so one hopes there's plenty of conceptual elbow room left. >the various writings in the Chaos Dungeon, even in that one library-like floor, were by different individuals Yes, I figured that Mabel/Yog-Sothoth, who in the Mythos manifests within material reality as glowing collections of eyeballs (oh!), among other forms, had been running a little bit of her usual intelligence-gathering, especially since she mentions that she, along with Grimm, has the ability to travel between Gardens. >Could a hypothetical Father Grimm break the cycle of abuse and neglect? Does this hypothetical... not involve dicking his eldritch daughters like in Ending B, then? Is that even an option with these beings?
>>4183 >Some of them weren't so much folk tales as real people, like "killer clown Gacy". The Nightmare Spirits were specifically based on real life serial killers, yeah. Well, almost all of them. >BS2 end G As it turns out, End H spells out how things seem to end for her. Also, it has already been confirmed that Dead Red Hood will feature Grimm and Red's honeymoon, so things aren't all bleak. And yeah, this was from a japanese language source Leaf uses to list news updates for the series.
This thread is now about 1/3 Black Souls. Given how much discussion these two games generated, I suppose we should make a dedicated thread if another game comes out of this circle. >>4185 >As it turns out, I'm not sure how End H spells out anything for that character other than being alive at the time End H happens. >And yeah, this was from a japanese language source Oh, well, there's no more trustworthy source than that character. >>4184 It's amazing to me that someone either found it profitable to make Black Souls playing cards, or else did it as a labor of love. Why has someone thrown Red Hood out in... a box of hay? Is she up for adoption? Did she stab her previous keeper? ...is that a Lorina vtuber? >Those pages come from pictulia by Okito Endo, a.k.a. Ohagi-san of 70年式悠久機関. Thanks... huh, is this board-relevant content too? Nice. >And anyway, many indexable things these days have been sucked into the warded corporate social gardens. Surely, nobody would be able to live happily in gardens crafted by selfish gods. >The pattern I noticed was this Now I remember that this was explained in-game at some point. I think I just discarded it because some of them are kind of apocryphal; like I don't think we have solid proof Sawney Bean was a real person. >who in the Mythos manifests within material reality as glowing collections of eyeballs (oh!), among other forms, had been running a little bit of her usual intelligence-gathering, especially since she mentions that she, along with Grimm, has the ability to travel between Gardens. Huh. You don't suppose the mojibake eyeball enemies are some of her agents, having a look around Wonderland? Though I'd be surprised she needs agents, it is possible that her omniscience heavily implied in the Mythos only seems omni to mere mortals, and other eldritch beings can hide things to a degree, or perhaps she is limited by the form she took to participate in Wonderland. Perhaps one plot for BS3 could be Grimm and some companion visiting different Gardens, meaning the devs don't have to think of complete huge worlds themed around one thing. Grimm's companion could be Mabel, but it seems heavily implied that Red Hood can also slip between Gardens, so there may be others. The White Rabbit being able to slip in and out of Wonderland would be consistent with the original Carroll stories. It's heavily implied by what Node says if you lose/surrender to the final boss of Winterbell that regaining control of Mary Sue's power could be critical to stopping Azathoth-related calamity, though perhaps Grand Guignol isn't the best choice to wield that power, whereas the girls seem to think Grimm might be better if that's possible. >Does this hypothetical... not involve It might involve that, especially if it's necessary to breed an eldritch army really quickly, but I hesitate to apply the human moral framework that says incest or even paedophilia are damaging when it comes to such beings. It may also be that it's not proper to think of such beings as mentally "children" so much as teenagers or stunted adults - in contrast, I'm somewhat more confident saying that any intelligent being could benefit from experiencing love and discipline at some point in their lives. There's also the depressing thought that even if it counts as incest or paedophilia, overall it may still be a better parenting arrangement than what is baseline for such beings. >The item data isn't wrapped into the program file itself? That might work, actually, but will the data files be compatible, given that apparently the version I have is newer enough to have that new moon music? According to the update history on DLSite, "some" BGM was changed in the latest update on 26 June 2021, and then the update before that on 04 May 2021 was bug fixes and content. So I'd guess that as long as the item data files you'd be modifying are compatible, that should work? It seems worth a shot, but only as long as it's not any significant amount of effort or time for you; I wouldn't want to put you out of your way. The item data is a separate file in the Data folder. If the only change was to BGM then this should work fine. Even if they changed how some items work, I don't think it should cause serious problems, although maybe some items won't work correctly when used. If that was the last update and the changelog is complete then I don't anticipate issues. I have uploaded the file at https://files.catbox.moe/omxkfg.zip - if this doesn't work for you, I'm open to other anonymous image host ideas. It makes the Master Key into a non-consumable instant-kill item, and the Candy into an even more instant-kill item that will get past various forms of boss bullshit but might break fights/events (but just in case you need it). I also modified the weapons table so that equipping fully upgraded weapons will give you resistance to most states that stun, kill, or disable items (you gotta survive long enough and be able to use the instant-kill items, after all); this too might break things if there's some fight where you absolutely are supposed to die with no possible victory, but I don't remember such a fight. Also the Candy now sells for more than its buy price in Queensland, so you can get infinite money if you want. You can restore the original versions of the files if you no longer want either of these cheats. And no worries about time spent; I enjoyed the excuse to poke in the game internals and replay the final sequence, plus a sense of smugness at breaking it to the player's will.
>>4187 >I'm not sure how End H spells out anything for that character other than being alive at the time End H happens. It spells out, at the very least, that on her last day alive, she's happy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq9W6ZYEHPQ
>>4188 (checked) But that's a different character, isn't it? At least, the text says it's Alice, not Red Hood, though that raises its own set of questions. I'll admit I don't understand that ending all too well. Whoever it is, it's interesting that the music is an instrumental of "Scarborough Faire", a song about the effective unlikelihood of two characters being together as told by metaphors of unfeasible demanded tasks. While I'm wondering about things, what did Little Sister Alice mean by calling Grimm a "chocolate cake"? And why is Winterbell town full of characters you can't interact with, who are versions or offspring of the heroines? The area is "backstage" but what does that mean? And who are Heinrich, the three jumping contestants, and the cat knights in armor? >>4156 >I expect most people who imprison her do so because they're either on a run to imprison all the women, or they saw what happens after There's also the not-subtle implication that she enslaved the Carpenter (whom we met as the Deep Sea Knight) via careful tentacle brain surgery, so she's no innocent even before the events that occur if Grimm chooses to make children with her. It should perhaps be no surprise that a neglected/abused girl whose idea of love jumps directly to making children is not good at right and wrong, but this only indicates she needs some correction. >>4157 >I'm going to file this under "not comprehensible without succumbing to madness first". Regardless of one's feelings on the matter, the concept of transwomen is comprehensible, and may be a reasonable lens here, as the example of Sho indicates that there may be limits to how much some eldritch beings can remake themselves to fit into Wonderland.
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>>4185 >Grimm and Red's honeymoon I know there'll be some twist that renders it not nearly as sweet as I'd like, but I still want to see it. >>4187 That's a very cute Halloween Node. Her tail looks fluffy; I want to touch it. I also want to touch Fluffy, who also looks fluffy, as is usual for the fluffy Fluffy. >It makes the Master Key into a non-consumable instant-kill item, and the Candy into an even more instant-kill item that will get past various forms of boss bullshit but might break fights/events (but just in case you need it). Thank you; the further into DLC3 I went, the surer I became that those items turned what would have been absolutely intolerable to me into something I was able to enjoy. But they didn't carry me the whole way: Unicorn Unis has a power that neutralises all unavoidable attacks, and so neither the Master Key nor the Candy was able to touch her. Even with the upgraded-weapon effect keeping me alive at 0HP for many, many turns, it was impossible for me to so much as scratch her for long enough to make a dent in her HP. I ended up finding a character editor myself and setting all my stats to unreasonably high levels, which was enough to finish her off. I'm very happy to have had your assistance, for now that I've experienced it, I do think not seeing Ending H would have been a shame. >It's amazing to me that someone either found it profitable to make Black Souls playing cards, or else did it as a labor of love. That's very common in the doujin scene. The vast majority of circles lose money on everything they do, from books to events to goods; they're doing it because it's their way of doing things 一生懸命, a very important concept in Japanese society that could be explained as "doing things with utmost, serious effort"—even and especially for hobbies—and of standing proudly among 同人—"doujin", literally "same person", i.e. the coterie of others who are like you. It's why their doujin scenes produce the kind of stuff they do, and why Japanese doujinshi market events are quite different in kind to the kind of "cons" one gets in the West despite superficial resemblance. To understand Comiket, for example, go to the islands where the decades-old train, software, electronics, photography, alcohol, novel, boardgame, and other circles continue to faithfully put out text-only doujinshi about the things they love. Watch the circles ritually gift their books to each other in the morning, and mingle in the late afternoon lull before the end-of-day applause. Anyway, those particular playing cards seem to be from a Chinese circle; their AVG scene's idea of fanwork is strongly influenced by Japanese doujin culture, as one might expect. Apparently those photos are the proof copies, and there's yet no word on if, or where, they'll sell the deck. >Why has someone thrown Red Hood out in... a box of hay? Is she up for adoption? Did she stab her previous keeper? Maybe! She lacks the usual adoption sign, but that's a pretty classic abandoned-puppy/kitten composition. >...is that a Lorina vtuber? Almost! Seems her rig was drawn by Toro, maker of Black Souls, but she's a separate kaiju girl character called Aspara. I found the YouTube channel over at https://www.youtube.com/user/MrGiasu/about - seems her driver is a man using a voice changer, which probably appealed to Toro, given that the character has the same meaty tail as another lizard we know. The rig's animation is pretty rough, as is the production itself, but that's how most enthusiast VTubers are. >Though I'd be surprised she needs agents, it is possible that her omniscience heavily implied in the Mythos only seems omni to mere mortals, and other eldritch beings can hide things to a degree, or perhaps she is limited by the form she took to participate in Wonderland. All of the above seem like they could be true, but if indeed our friends the 0-SEN eyeballs are hers then I see them as something like gut bacteria, a kind of low-level autonomous part of her that manifests in places her attention has turned and provides that omniscience without her being consciously aware of or controlling them. That would explain why they attack Grimm if they realise he's perceiving them and why they're otherwise inconsequential to everything else going on in Wonderland. Nobody else talks about them, so we might even conclude that only Grimm can see them, and that if anyone else could, the eyeballs would attack them too. >Grimm and some companion visiting different Gardens, meaning the devs don't have to think of complete huge worlds themed around one thing. Grimm's companion could be Mabel, but it seems heavily implied that Red Hood can also slip between Gardens, so there may be others. The White Rabbit being able to slip in and out of Wonderland would be consistent with the original Carroll stories. That'd be a wise setup, structurally, and one that would make for a satisfying destination at the other end of the breadcrumb trail the game drops. >breed an eldritch army really quickly Like the Game Over you get when surrendering to the final boss, you mean? >I'm somewhat more confident saying that any intelligent being could benefit from experiencing love and discipline at some point in their lives. I think it's important to remember that at some level, the beings we see manifest in Black Souls are merely what happens when parts of Great Ones lose themselves in the performances that they're putting on for the sake of satisfying their own curiosity or need for amusement. As Mabel points out, the gap between them and humanity remains unbridgeably vast, and it's not possible to know whether they're truly moved by what they experience, or are simply some shard of them amusing itself for a few heartbeat-eons. If humans are not the unified, fully-conscious beings we pretend to be, but each more like an imperfect consciousness-CEO attempting to make sense and exert influence over sprawling, unreliable, unconscious departments that each have their own agendas and deploy their own tactics to influence the whole person-organisation, then how much moreso would this be true of the vast, alien intelligences that Great Ones possess, where entire sub-personalities that bubble up from their maze-minds are still vaster than any individual human? I'd like to think that father Grimm could exert influence, but whether this is of any consequence to the development of the whole being, whatever it is, remains an open question. >I'm not sure how End H spells out anything for that character other than being alive at the time End H happens. Like >>4188 (heil'd), I also take the woman in the bed as being Red Hood. As I understand this ending, parts of the Crawling One (Little Sister, specifically) develop an understanding of love above the all-consuming obsession that still grips the others. We know this is possible because Prickett was also once part of the Crawling One (Big Sister, specifically), but managed to extract herself into an independent form. Having developed this understanding, and with it realising that Grimm should go to Red Hood instead of remaining with her, she turns on the rest of the entity and assists Grimm's escape. This seems to create a moment of vulnerability where the Jubjub, Jabberwock, and Bandersnatch appear and execute the Crawling One's three manifest "heads". Grimm escapes, but the Crawling One's half-conscious soup of personality swarms him and drags him away from Red Hood again—allowing Grimm, incidentally, to demonstrate another aspect of love in self-sacrifice. And so Grimm is condemned to live within the decapitated, half-alive Crawling One, its faceless alice-polyps barely stirring, until it heals enough to re-manifest an Alice. Fortunately, the Alice that emerges is Little Sister, and she decides to free him, joining Node in renouncing her claim to Grimm's heart—for now, at least. The last we see of Little Sister Alice is on her own threshold, insisting that Grimm continue on without her. And so we rejoin Grimm at Red Hood's bedside. We don't know exactly how long they had together, or what they were able to do, but we infer that Red Hood's time has come and that, at the very least, she is able to go out happily holding the hand of the man she loves. >>4190 One of the reasons I decided DLC3 was something I wanted to do was that there catslime, and I forgot all about her. Didn't even see her. Where's my catslime? I'm going to have to go back and search for her now, as well as the other heroines it's apparently possible to miss entirely. >Whoever it is, it's interesting that the music is an instrumental of "Scarborough Faire", a song about the effective unlikelihood of two characters being together as told by metaphors of unfeasible demanded tasks. That tune also plays over BS2's opening, IIRC, so we might be able to look at it as a kind of overture. A modern overture's job is to subtly introduce a whole performance's thematic material, both emotionally and musically speaking, so that the audience subconsciously primed to hear it better later. But we can also see it as an opening number, which has the job of overtly introducing an audience to an opera or musical's main conceit, incitement, or theme. A popular modern example would be the movie Frozen, which uses both a short pre-visual overture to set the musical tone and then an opening number (Frozen Heart) staged like those in Victorian operettas to set up the movie's emotional incitement. (IMO it's a mix of both roles here.) So far, so good, but here's where we run into some little details. Scarborough Faire/The Elfin Knight has been imported rather than composed for purpose, and brings its own associations with it. Once of them, dating from its folk lyrics, is the one you mention: A series of impossible tasks, by which means the singer explains that the lass becoming their true love again is impossible. But: The version most people know, which is the 1965 version by Simon & Garfunkel, also has another song called Canticle sung in counterpoint (woven in). Canticle describes soldiers dying senselessly in war, and is named after a type of Christian liturgical music. Can you think of a part of DLC3 that strongly embraces both of these latter associations—war death and Christian faith—and how the song's role as both opening number and closing theme might tie that part to some of the game's larger story? I can't support this assertion musically, since the version used in the game doesn't include the counterpoint under the accompaniment as far as I can tell, but I think there's a strong chance that the 1965 version might be the one that the game's creator(s) formed their understanding from, and that they don't realise through the language barrier that the original tune doesn't include the war/faith associations that S&G welded on with Canticle. >why is Winterbell town full of characters you can't interact with, who are versions or offspring of the heroines? The area is "backstage" but what does that mean? Winterbell made me feel things, because as I took it all in it slowly dawned on me that it's the kind of place I might be tempted to create. A beautiful, peaceful place by the sea, where crowds of my man's other women live happily together. What drove this home, strangely, was the classroom of Dodos being taught by a Dodo near the entrance to the Liddel house; they were having so much fun. Also: Bunnysuit. I think the reason we can't interact with any of them because in a sense, they don't exist: They're part of Node's dream, and if we were to talk to them that'd be revealed. The dream defends against this in the standard way, by making it impossible to force the issue. But time has stopped in beautiful Winterbell, where the sun always shines, the sea breeze is always pleasant, where nothing happens. Its tranquility is also stagnation, and its nature is a contradiction, because it being backstage—a liminal space for actors to rest, mingle, change costume, and hear their cues for the performance itself—necessarily requires there being a stage, which is what traps and tortures Grimm, whom Node has come to love. She conspires to free him, knowing that it will separate him from her, which is something that she only fully comes to terms with in Ending H (whose Heartbreak did you think it referred to?), and is specifically able to sidestep in some other endings, such as the surrender-induced Game Over, or Ending B. >It should perhaps be no surprise that a neglected/abused girl whose idea of love jumps directly to making children is not good at right and wrong, but this only indicates she needs some correction. That does, of course, assume that she has certain human-like mental structures. To a creature for whom seizing and reprogramming mortals at will is as natural as picking up a ball is to us, such correction may well be crippling in other ways. Assuming that others can be made more like you and others like you by exposing them to the same factors that shaped you, simply because they share some parts of your mortal shape and can perform some of your behaviours, is common enough, but sometimes incorrect in difficult-to-understand ways. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of someone or something are alien, after all.
>>4190 >Who is Heinrich Same frog who taught Red quickstep in Red Hood's Woods. You could also summon her to talk to him in 1. And he might be Heinrich from "The Frog King or Iron Heinrich", the first tale in the Grimm brothers' collection. Given a certain Chaos Dungeon boss, he will probably show up in the demonic princess game too. Also, I'm not sure, but I've heard that the oyster mesugaki was the one to screw up the Carpenter's mind instead in order to keep Kuti confined in place. What pierced his mind was described as something thin, perhaps too thin to be a tentacle.
>>4191 I'm pretty sure that Prickett wasn't big sister Alice, just the "original" little girl Alice Carroll and Prayer Master would speak to. I don't think we know who played the part of big sis Alice yet, but they were said to have vanished from the garden, perhaps to avoid losing their mind in their role.
>>4191 >Fortunately, the Alice that emerges is Little Sister, and she decides to free him, joining Node in renouncing her claim to Grimm's heart—for now, at least. That was almost definitely Prickett, not Little Sister/Jubjub. How did you even reach that conclusion?
>>4193 >I don't think we know who played the part of big sis Alice yet I'm basing that idea on one of the Winterbell bear flashbacks, in which the Node-silhouette is speaking with the Prickett-silhouette about the latter having once been part of the Crawling One, as part of a larger conversation about her taking the Red Queenship and remaking the Red kingdom into what we know as Queensland. Taken together with the flashback that shows Little Sister asking after Big Sister's disappearance, as well as with the fact that Looking-Glass Land doesn't seem to be under Alice's jurisdiction, I find it plausible that who we now know as Prickett defected and was re-inserted with White Queen Node's help into the former Red Queen's abandoned garden. I suppose it's possible I'm misremembering, but I don't have a save where I'm entering Winterbell to conveniently double-check. >>4194 >How did you even reach that conclusion? Conservation of story-matter, mostly. Since Little Sister defected moments before the three remaining Alices (Crawling Alice-heads?) were executed by Jubjub, Bandersnatch, and Jabberwock, I assumed the Alice I saw later was also her. But now that I re-check the scene, the Alice that emerges from the headless Crawling One's innards is an older version with none of the features that distinguish any of the Crawling Alices or Alice Liddel. Still, it's reasonable to draw the conclusion that the Alice we see here is the result of the defector-Alice's decision, given that she confesses to having made Grimm suffer, insists that he leave, and then remains on the Crawling One's threshold. How did you determine that the Alice we saw was Prickett? She doesn't seem to have any of Prickett's design or characterisation cues. For that matter, how do you figure that Jubjub and Little Sister are the same? I could have sworn that the three mad beasts remained present after the Alices were killed, but before the screen fade a moment later, indicating that they killed the Alice-forms rather than being the Alice-forms. That kind of split-image reveal doesn't seem the game's style.
>>4195 Her character and what she says to you at the end DO match what Prickett has said to you, though, particularly the part about not having been there for you and being responsible for your suffering. As for Jubjub, the soul descriptions of Bandersnatch, Jubjub, and Jabberwock hint towards them also being daughter, little sister, and mother Alice respectively. And if I remember right, when they show up by their respective Alices, they're see-through as if projecting an image of their true selves rather than existing solidly as separate beings.
BS1 Ending A, plus all Leaf-free endings, plus all Leaf-infected endings. Observations: Coming back to BS1 after the sprawling feelsfuck of BS2 feels quaint, almost charming. Mary Sue's twisted fairytale world has its own simplicity, even though she's a fucking HACK. Boo. Boo! wi   g00  de va Handsel and Gretel... not really my thing, but Handsel a definite precursor to Bill. And Gretel's reaction to the Handsel-only scene, which I viewed third, made me laugh. Miranda is as cute as I was lead to believe. If I was a corpse-eating demon I suppose I'd steal her essence too. Goose-child very cute. Elma also cute, glad to have been able to finally save her, but having her suck souls outta my character's corpse-cock right across from her father... it's a little weird, right? Goose and Elma's arithmetic lesson was a nice touch. Elizabeth NOT CUTE, NOT CUTE AT ALL, HELP; even though she's that hack Mary Sue's fault I'm glad Red Hood got to end her in BS2. I feel like given a few of the things Jeanne says indicate that she could develop into a really good cuckquean character, and her ending's dress is nice. Red Hood's ending is the same regardless of whether you have Leaf's ring or not, which speaks to her ability to shrug off Mary Sue's manipulation. Best sprite award goes to the Nice Boat for making me smile every tiem. Worst enemy award goes to the Observer for being GROSS, EW. All in all, I found Ending A to be cleverly unsatisfying; have to admire how it was written to feel that way. MARY SUE IS A HACK; PASS IT ON. A fun way to pass a few hours. But one thing still bothers me: After realising that my original post-True End save's Room of Reminiscence had a Big Fluffy that unlocked all CGs, I noticed that Cinderella has a consensual scene that involves her thinking that you're her... son? What? That blindsided me; had no idea it even existed. This game, fraction of BS2 that is is, can still surprise me.
>>4191 >seems her driver is a man using a voice changer, which probably appealed to Toro, given that the character has the same meaty tail as another lizard we know. The rig's animation is pretty rough, as is the production itself, but that's how most enthusiast VTubers are. Heh. I guess he's not hiding it much, given the channel name, but I always find males using voice-changers to be in a sort of audio uncanny valley for me. I don't like it, but I guess some do. Toro may be a bit bisexual; I suppose this would only make him similar to Hans Christian Andersen. >But they didn't carry me the whole way Ach, that damn (not-)fucking horse! Become a bicorn already!! I was afraid there was something like that I forgot, but when I tested I didn't invest quite the time to do all of both DLC3 routes again. I'm surprised that the various tools in your Grimm's repertoire weren't able to do anything even with infinite time, but then I don't remember the details of that fight well. I'm glad you found a way anyway. I hope what I did was helpful still. >Nobody else talks about them, so we might even conclude that Most Wonderlanders are invested in the illusion, losing themselves to it or working to maintain it, but Grimm seems quite perceptive at times, once he pulls himself out of it. >Like the Game Over you get when surrendering to the final boss, you mean? Yes, like that. Or like the original purpose of "Wonderland", for that matter. But I think we'd all prefer an outcome wherein the Grimm personality remains dominant; I feel sad looking at Node acting like this thing is still the man she loved, amalgam though he was. >but whether this is of any consequence to the development of the whole being, whatever it is, remains an open question.but whether this is of any consequence to the development of the whole being, whatever it is, remains an open question. All fair points, though I hesitate to imagine anyone trusting Prickett, originally a fragment of the Crawling One, if it can't truly become different from its origin nature. Mabel seems to think something like this: "The trickster everyone knew is gone." Furthermore, I'm not just pulling all of this out of my wishful-thinking speculation-arse; I dunno if you saw the scene that transpires between Kuti and Node after you jail Kuti, but Node seems to be of the opinion that the problem with Kuti, and with the children of Great Ones in general, is that they "grow up without receiving neither enough love nor discipline." Now, Node may simply be wrong, but at least we hear this idea put forth by one of these eldritch beings, and not just my own mortal mind. >Where's my catslime? I'm going to have to go back and search for her now, as well as the other heroines it's apparently possible to miss entirely. Most likely on the other route you didn't take. I'm guessing you sided with Leiden? I think you go through the vast snowfield on that route rather than the Mountains of Madness, although I'm not sure this actually prevents you from returning to the fork and traversing the Mountains of Madness and getting Sho anyway. In contrast, Gerda is just a pain in the arse to do all the right things and have her assistance at the final boss, though it's easy to find her first appearance. By the way, there are a few heroines in DLC3 that don't seem to much mind being "raped", and these include Sho, Gerda, Leiden, and Mabel in the Winterbell wine cellar. "Raping" Sho doesn't even break your contract with her, a trait she shares with Node alone. ...Unis of course claims not to want it, but she deserves it, not that you can have both her and Leiden together without cheating anyway. It does annoy me that BS2 plays so loose with the word "Rape" so that the line between what is consensual and not is blurred, but I guess it's thematic in some way. >That tune also plays over BS2's opening, IIRC, so we might be able to look at it as a kind of overture. This would be cool but I went back and listened, and I don't think the character creation or tree time music are versions of that piece. I don't think this really undermines your subsequent points, though. >Winterbell made me feel things, because as I took it all in it slowly dawned on me that it's the kind of place I might be tempted to create. A beautiful, peaceful place by the sea, where crowds of my man's other women live happily together. What drove this home, strangely, was the classroom of Dodos being taught by a Dodo near the entrance to the Liddel house; they were having so much fun. Also: Bunnysuit. Hah! So I guess we have your answer to Mabel's question of what sort of Garden you'd create. (Did you see all her random conversation topics on the way down the final stairs?) I myself would like an element of Winterbell in my Garden, but also an element of Shatranj - a core of stability and beauty preserving that which is most dear to me, but also a gradient outward shading into infinite virgin/novel territory. (If you tell Mabel you'd make something like Shatranj, she asks if you'd like to merge your Gardens... it sounds quite intimate, and it's a bonus that I like the idea of sharing my Garden, and my man, with a cute helpful bunnygirl librarian and thin pretty-eyed gothic lolita.) Particularly important to have both aspects if I'm building a world for many people to inhabit - let each person find their place in the infinite expanse, and build their own island of stability around what makes them happiest, while no one is forced to remain where they are not happy, always able to strike out on their own if all else fails. Your interpretation is interesting, and valid I think. Mine was melancholy - I thought perhaps the crowds of girls might be real, perhaps Grimm's many daughters that resemble their mothers, as seen in Ending B. (This is how I made sense of Grimm asking Heinrich to take care of his daughters.) Perhaps, like the classroom of Dodos or the Shisha in a tree, they are learning their roles to enter Wonderland and be bred themselves. If real, some surely notice Grimm passing through, but it makes no real impression on them because Grimm has no connection to his daughters. Grimm is a studhorse; various characters try to flatter his ego with the "stud" part of that, but ultimately he's a horse, a beast of burden for others. He makes his mark on Wonderland, and the whole enterprise even depends on him, yet passing through Winterbell I was struck at the same time by how it is utterly beautiful and ultimately not for him. The sense of alienation and longing I experienced was profound. It's sort of awkward really, because while the music for the area was perfectly selected, it is in fact a stock piece that I later heard repeatedly in other games, making me feel things inappropriate to those situations. I don't regret it, but it's funny. Anyway, Winterbell is as aurally and visually beautiful as most anything I've seen made with RPG Maker assets, so I'm glad you persevered to see it. At least there was something worthwhile behind the absurd difficulty cliff of the hospital and horse. >>4195 >>4196 While I think the evidence isn't conclusive either way, I do think it makes sense for it to be Little Sister Alice, who is played by Jubjub. The visuals match. Jubjub was probably a protrusion of the Crawling One who took on a life of her own, even as she played the role of an Alice. Her line "Please, open your eyes. You can't fall asleep." may be a callback to the very beginning under the tree. Furthermore Jubjub's influence over Wonderland was greater than the other two, though she used it to drive others mad, which also makes her more culpable for Grimm's suffering than the other two. Still, I'll admit this does leave Prickett somewhat underrepresented in the ending, and the ending does hinge on having Prickett's Ring. The bedbound blonde, though, could be Alice or Red Hood. Red Hood makes sense if this ending is meant to lead into Dead Red Hood, but we have no guarantee of this. >>4192 >Same frog who taught Red quickstep in Red Hood's Woods. You could also summon her to talk to him in 1. Huh, that character was not present in the version of the fairytale I read as a child. I also can't find him anywhere in BS1; where is he? As for the other thing, it was something sharp and thin, but it could be a tentacle. I dunno. I could see Zoa tricking and confining Kuti, now that you mention it. >>4190 >the three jumping contestants, and the cat knights in armor? "The Jumpers" are direct from that Andersen tale. No idea about "Knight in Armor". >>4197 Speaking of Goose-child, in BS2 did you meet the chick daughteru you get to name? What'd you name her? I went with Aurelia because she's my little golden goose. Well... even though she cost me a lot instead of the opposite. >I too have had that fantasy Jeanne.jpg Jeanne a cute. I love her serious little facial expression. I want to cuck her while she watches us and makes that face. In other words, she can stand guard inside. (And Victoria can do cleanup duty when we're done.) >That blindsided me; had no idea it even existed. Right, that scene. Grimm is not her son. However, there's this wannabe hero guy "Izu" who runs around and you periodically have the opportunity to save him, and eventually you meet him dying in Cinderella's castle. After that you can assume his appearance in the recollection room, and get the scene when meeting Cinderella.
>>4198 >I also can't find him anywhere in BS1; where is he? He's one of the frogs near Frog Princess. >Izu I dislike that the additional costumes you could get in 2 don't seem to cause any unique changes at all. At the very least I've never found or seen anyone bring up any additional changes happening, which is a pain given just how costly it is to buy them.
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>>4067 >These games manage do to escape turning into pizza cutters—all edge and no point—but I do know that if I'd heard a lot of this out of context I'd never have given them much of a look. This isn't to be edgy. It's to emphasize that Red Hood is loyal, and above all determined not to be controlled by anyone ever again. You can't cage Red Hood, she will not be your prison plaything, she will live free or die. This is justified in-character given her origin of ongoing sexual abuse, followed by being trapped in one of Mary Sue's horrible tales. This also puts into context what a mark of genuine affection it is that she doesn't turn against Grimm if he makes her do dressup rape time. >>4197 >Red Hood's ending is the same regardless of whether you have Leaf's ring or not, which speaks to her ability to shrug off Mary Sue's manipulation. Red Hood seems to bear similarities to Sleeping Beauty, a case of Mary Sue overdoing it and making a character willful and powerful enough to be a problem for her plans. I wonder what other such cases there might be. >>4199 (checked) I think it might be weirder if they had done anything for it. How are all the characters in BS2 supposed to react to e.g. Grimm showing up dressed as Alice? Although it'd be darkly funny if Red Hood said "At least you're not making me do it this time."
>>4198 >I guess he's not hiding it much, given the channel name, but I always find males using voice-changers to be in a sort of audio uncanny valley for me. He actually comes right out and says it in the channel's About tab: >怪獣の着ぐるみを着てボイチェンで活動してるから応援よろしく‼🐊 >I'm wearing a kaiju costume and performing with a voice-changer, so please lend me your support! I suppose those who want to puppet girl avatars for whatever reason can either fall back on voice changers or simply use their natural voices, but neither's really a good option. At least this one's very upfront about it. >Toro may be a bit bisexual; I suppose this would only make him similar to Hans Christian Andersen. Plenty bisexual, I'd say, but not so much in the strict sense as much as the kind of trap-oriented stuff one usually sees roughly summarised as "gay stuff for straight men", i.e. the stuff that relies on the bottoms being drawn as girly as possible, firing the eternal debate as to whether such material is gay. (It is.) I had no idea Hans Christian Andersen was bisexual, so I looked it up, and: >Although he enjoyed adult women, Andersen was particularly enthralled by young boys. During his stay with Charles Dickens in 1857, he requested to be shaved by one of Dickens’ young sons every morning, a request the British author grumpily turned down. It’s said he spent his life filled with “tortuous unrequited sexual yearnings” for young men, yearnings he possibly had to alleviate with a pornography addiction. Very similar indeed. >Become a bicorn already!! That's along the lines of what I was expecting would happen, rather than Mabel simply turning her into a red stain. I'm not super into corruption, but I think we can all agree that a bit of glossy purple and black mixed into her design, a split horn, and a new goal in life would greatly improve her. Grimm was ROBBED of a Leiden/Unis double blowjob scene, if you ask me. ~DIEU ET MON DICK~ >I'm surprised that the various tools in your Grimm's repertoire weren't able to do anything even with infinite time, but then I don't remember the details of that fight well. I'm glad you found a way anyway. I hope what I did was helpful still. To be fair, my Grimm shouldn't have been there anyway, not even being qualified to beat Florence. Your modifications were very helpful in every other fight; every time I used them and saw the absurd numbers I'd otherwise have had to chop through bit by painful bit, I breathed a relieved sigh. >I feel sad looking at Node acting like this thing is still the man she loved, amalgam though he was. Yeah, that was my reaction after I got over the initial disgusted shock. There wasn't any indication of whether Grimm's personality was still present or not, but either way it was clear that he wasn't what he once was. >Prickett, originally a fragment of the Crawling One, if it can't truly become different from its origin nature. That's a very good and well-made point. I suppose I was pointing more to the idea that although a being's nature can change by nurture, the way in which it changes in response to that nurture might not be what one expects, and may even be counterproductive no matter how good the intent. But then, one of the recurring themes of Black Souls 2 is the transformative power of authorial cock, and the idea that at least some eldritch beings are capable of not only relating to humans/human-amalgams but also genuinely understanding, empathising, and loving them. >I dunno if you saw the scene that transpires between Kuti and Node after you jail Kuti, but Node seems to be of the opinion that the problem with Kuti, and with the children of Great Ones in general, is that they "grow up without receiving neither enough love nor discipline." Now, Node may simply be wrong, but at least we hear this idea put forth by one of these eldritch beings, and not just my own mortal mind. I didn't see that scene, no—Kuti successfully made me feel so terrible that I reloaded to before her imprisonment and never tried it again. I suppose in that respect, the Black Souls eldritch horrors are different to the original Lovecraftian ones in that the human-like shapes they wear seem to genuinely possess what we can recognise as human drives. Far from overlooking humanity as irrelevant bacteria, they seem curious—and that's in some ways far more terrifying. >I'm guessing you sided with Leiden? Yes, that's right. I found Gerda in an igloo and got her naizuri scene, but never saw her again. Perhaps if I reload to just before the final staircase descent I'll be able to backtrack, but I suspect that Sho won't be there. More likely I'll have to go all the way back to doing another cycle so that everything resets, and then muck about experimenting with multiple saves**. >"Raping" Sho doesn't even break your contract with her, a trait she shares with Node alone. ...Unis of course claims not to want it, but she deserves it, not that you can have both her and Leiden together without cheating anyway. It does annoy me that BS2 plays so loose with the word "Rape" so that the line between what is consensual and not is blurred, but I guess it's thematic in some way. That's a useful tip, thank you. I've already complained about the way that the Rape option is handled, specifically that there's no way to know if you'll be performing an irretrievably life-shattering, covenant-breaking, imprisonment-triggering act of tragedy or merely a cheeky spot of forcey fun time enjoyed by all. I don't know what the original Japanese option is, and there's an argument to be made that multiple Japanese words can be translated into "rape" where some of them are actually closer to "ravage" (the difference, as one writer noted, being whether there are any complaints filed afterward) but I suspect it's just the kind of design that expects the player to screw about and experiment using backup saves every time the option is available rather than treating it as a choice with weight, which IMO undercuts things a little. >This would be cool but I went back and listened, and I don't think the character creation or tree time music are versions of that piece. Damn, I could have sworn... I know that music plays elsewhere, somewhere that felt early; how did I get it mixed up? Did it play over an earlier ending, or some other emotional moment? >I don't think this really undermines your subsequent points, though. I disagree; if it only sounds over the final scene of Ending H then there's nothing linking it to the otherwise-incongruous inclusion of the Crimean Nursing Graveyard and its preoccupation with Florence Nightingale's being driven by faith to nurse and her mission in the Crimean War. Maybe I heard it over the bridging scene when one arrives in DLC3 for the first time? But no, that's probably just me back-filling for the benefit of what otherwise seemed like a nicely-slotted theory. How annoying. The Crimean Nursing Graveyard does drive me a little nuts. It's such a strange area, different in ways no subsequent part of DLC3 is; just kind of hangs off the side of the game, thematically and mechanically speaking. It's not even fully consistent with itself; the use of Florence as a heavy-handed "lady with the lamp" glitch horror doesn't quite gel for me. I can't figure out why the area's there, except that perhaps the maker(s) wanted to do something a little different and thought "yeah, it's too small to be its own thing, so why not put it in DLC3?". >(Did you see all her random conversation topics on the way down the final stairs?) I did; the question about what kind of Garden I'd create was the first thing she asked me. I answered that I'd create a Garden like none of the pre-existing ones, because although Winterbell gave me beautiful feelings, I know that locking myself and my man into that kind of stagnant perfection would eventually drive us crazy, no matter how much I might yearn for it at times. Nobody would be able to live happily in gardens crafted by selfish gods, including the gods themselves. No—the joy of a garden is in nurturing it and thrilling in its growth. Still, I suspect that if I was left unchecked, my Garden would perhaps be too peaceful, but that's probably just because I'm craving a place to hide away from the world right now. >I myself would like an element of Winterbell in my Garden, but also an element of Shatranj - a core of stability and beauty preserving that which is most dear to me, but also a gradient outward shading into infinite virgin/novel territory. (If you tell Mabel you'd make something like Shatranj, she asks if you'd like to merge your Gardens... it sounds quite intimate, and it's a bonus that I like the idea of sharing my Garden, and my man, with a cute helpful bunnygirl librarian and thin pretty-eyed gothic lolita.) Now this is more like it: There's nothing quite like other creators in the mix! When you think about it, such beings merging Gardens is very much like merging households, i.e. Mabel is cheekily proposing a kind of marriage. This has me back in a cuckquean pantheon mindset, in which multiple creator-goddesses enthusiastically share a single chief god. Another silly tweak on such a setting permits the usual smut-setup of female-only fantasy races: Human men and human women are the mortal echoes of the chief god and goddess, while the various groups of monstergirl etc. species who reproduce with human men are the mortal echoes of the various other creator-goddesses. Healthy mortal families, therefore, reflect the divine family—that is, the esteemed human wife schlicks (very piously) to her husband fulfilling his marital duties to his monstergirl-wives. But I digress. Node—on whom I admit to developing just the tiniest Stockholm crush—seems like she would be a good sister-wife. Mabel less so, but then I suspect that she'd definitely be happier calling herself a mistress/other woman and flitting in for a regular bit of wine and dick. It's easy to imagine just finding her sleeping in our bed. Comfy game about going on journeys with your former-adventurer husband to visit his girlfriends when? Game where you plant worshipful kisses on his balls as he fills up each of those girlfriends WHEN??? I... think I might be acting up. >(This is how I made sense of Grimm asking Heinrich to take care of his daughters.) Perhaps, like the classroom of Dodos or the Shisha in a tree, they are learning their roles to enter Wonderland and be bred themselves. >Grimm is a studhorse; various characters try to flatter his ego with the "stud" part of that, but ultimately he's a horse, a beast of burden for others. He makes his mark on Wonderland, and the whole enterprise even depends on him, yet passing through Winterbell I was struck at the same time by how it is utterly beautiful and ultimately not for him. The sense of alienation and longing I experienced was profound. Yes, that's also how I saw it. How to explain? Backstage of Wonderland seems like somewhere that is both a dream and real. The danger of dreams is precisely that you might get what you wish for, hence defences, and so Node's beautiful dream still forms part of that stage machinery that traps her beloved in the role of tortured stud-horse. Viewed in this way, the whole of Wonderland, and indeed many of the Gardens, act as a manifestation of the girls' insecurity, a way to trick their beloved/object of sick obsession in an illusion where all paths compel him to love them, for whatever twisted value of love they can comprehend and/or force, but which also allow them to preserve just enough deniability that they can disavow or project away their own roles in the game. Winterbell's peace and beauty is still armed and engined to Grimm's pain. Shatranj, for all its chaos, is still structured—at least, in the moments we see it—as a maze for Grimm to run down, somewhere where Mabel can watch him with knowledge that he's in her realm and her realm alone, where she can coquettishly appear every so often, set her little challenges, flirt, flash her undies, partake in a hollow little thrill. "Will he or won't he?" asks Yog-Sothoth, the fucking viceroy, almost but not quite distracting itself from the fact it could put its thumb on the scales anytime it wanted, that failure to distract being itself a successful distraction from the fact that it's already weighted the scales: "What would happen if you just... let him go?". This is the question that only Node successfully confronts. She executes her repentance—that hair-slash was a beautifully timed gesture—and cleanly completes her conspiracy. Mabel comes close, almost gets there, but notice how she can't help but try for one last little disavowal before she resorts to the nuclear option, literally confessing from behind a fence before she sheds her body. Why live through the awkward reality your words have unlocked when you can be dramatically turned into a red stain instead? Yes, you can read her escort as a brave sacrifice, but we know that Yog-Sothoth of all beings regards mortal shells as disposable toys, distasteful flesh-suits. Chuuni goth-loli viceroy needs to be put over Grimm's knee, is what I'm saying. I'm going to give these characters a free pass on the "why not just slip Grimm out into the real world without all this fuss, then? You're powerful enough, aren't you?" question since we can assume that simply doing that would trigger nasty conflict that may well just result in him being trapped in a place he can't be rescued from. The other obvious question, "Why do cosmic horrors care so much about some author-amalgam's gross corpse-dick?", is not worth the fatly laboured breaths heaved between its words. Shut up, it's a game and we're having fun. Oh! Look! Now we're the cosmic horrors. >Winterbell is as aurally and visually beautiful as most anything I've seen made with RPG Maker assets, so I'm glad you persevered to see it. At least there was something worthwhile behind the absurd difficulty cliff of the hospital and horse. Yes, it was beautiful. Thank you for helping me to get there. >Little Sister Alice, who is played by Jubjub. The visuals match. Jubjub was probably a protrusion of the Crawling One who took on a life of her own, even as she played the role of an Alice. Here's what I don't understand about the three mad beasts playing Alices: Even when a given Alice is kidnapped, that mad beast still exists in Wonderland. I'll grant you that doesn't matter very much most of the time—it's just a costume change—but when I was in the Clock Tower, the kidnapped Little Sister had been moved to her final position just beyond the Child's Room. But Jubjub was still at the top of that tower. I chose to kill her, but even if I chose to enter a covenant with her or imprison her or whatever else, she still would still be existing in two places at once. While I'm sure that this is well within the Crawling One's capabilities—one imagines her furiously dashing back and forth, switching wigs—it stretches narrative credibility to breaking point and lacks any kind of established scaffolding. It feels very clumsy, in other words. >but what about Cheshire/Dinah, Anon, she moves around all the time! Teleporting around like a nutjob is her whole thing, so it doesn't feel off and she was never set up as being kidnapped. I don't like it. >in BS2 did you meet the chick daughteru you get to name? What'd you name her? I did; had to, when I was trying for an all-book run. But I don't remember what I named her, because it's been blotted out by the terrible things I had to do to get her book. It was probably something nice. ;_; >After that you can assume his appearance in the recollection room, and get the scene when meeting Cinderella. Ah yes, I remember meeting him a few times in my first time through the game. That way of doing things is very meta, but forgivably so. >>4200 >what a mark of genuine affection it is that she doesn't turn against Grimm if he makes her do dressup rape time. Red Hood's also experienced enough with eldritch shenanigans by that point that she probably recognises that Grimm's been altered, and that the alteration is closer to a butchering. After all, the only thing he says when they meet is the standard statement of his going to Alice. Perhaps she can't be sure whether he's been genuinely mind-fucked or is merely playing along, but when she thinks they can't be heard, speaks freely, and Grimm's response is a psychotic break, then she knows what's going on: "You're not Grimm." And he isn't, really, in that moment—he's the Grimm-shell, acting on its conditioning. Come to think of it, another undercurrent in BS2 is Grimm's fight against going to Alice; if we view the Liddel house CYOA in this light, the disintegration and eventual murder of the Alice-image could be seen as an internal rebellion against the twisted Alice-drive that's been forced on him. This drive reflects the Crawling One's cruel interpretation of "human love", which is actually just possessive obsession.
>>4201 >Leiden/Unis double blowjob scene Should have been a combined paizuri/naizuri scene.
>>4202 lol >>4191 >That's a very cute Halloween Node. Her tail looks fluffy; I want to touch it. I also want to touch Fluffy, who also looks fluffy, as is usual for the fluffy Fluffy. I wonder what Fluffy is from, originally. Also the grave appears to be Mary Ann's. lol >>4201 >I am taking this opportunity to once more ask you for to FUCK OFF PLEASE.jpg If you kill him at the first meeting, in the cold jail, he doesn't show up subsequently in that run, though it's difficult to kill him there. Also if you're quick you can just run past him in the final corridor before he materializes. lol >so you, uh, come here often, or.jpg Parts of that section are definitely drawing from Japanese horror wells I'm unfamiliar with. This is perhaps the "8-foot woman"? >get a feeling so complicated.jpg It's probably not original to BS2, but prior to it, I hadn't seen "use my sister's body because I'm not developed enough and would be hurt by it" as a queaning scenario. I had seen "use my relative because she's as close as you can get / a preview of what to expect" and also "use another girl because I'm physically indisposed and want you to be happy." Some serious taboo stacking going on here, but it works I think. >Plenty bisexual, I'd say, but not so much in the strict sense as much as the kind of trap-oriented stuff one usually sees roughly summarised as "gay stuff for straight men", i.e. the stuff that relies on the bottoms being drawn as girly as possible, firing the eternal debate as to whether such material is gay. I think this debate is eternal because the terms used are too limited compared to how human sexuality actually manifests. At the very least, I think something like the Kinsey scale placing people on a spectrum from 0 (het) to 6 (gey) is necessary to pin down reality here; there's probably a lot of Kinsey 1 and 6 people out there, who are in the target audience for such material. Similarly I'm reminded of women who claim it's not even slightly gay to want to suck another woman's juices off a man's cock or eat his creampie out of that woman. Y'know, just to pick a completely random example with nothing to do with anyone around here. >I'm not super into Look, I'm super into the aesthetic side of it, but is it really corruption when it's an improvement in every way and you get liberated to be sexually honest and stop repressing your obvious desire to be dominated by a worthy male and convert your rival into a double-blowjob partner? In some ways I'd say that's a misnomer. And yes, everyone involved including us players were robbed by not getting any of that. This is also how I imagine succubi doing their thing a lot of the time, when I don't feel like my fantasies being all dark and edgy - not luring you into damnation or eating your soul, but luring you into the sweet release of giving into what you honestly wanted. It'll feel so good, you know~? Not just for your man, but for you too~ >Yeah, that was my reaction after I got over the initial disgusted shock. There wasn't any indication of whether It's a critical question to me - I can abide a monster husbando to go with my monster girls, and there's even something to be said for having an appendage for every sister-wifely orifice with some left over for hugs and headpats, but the way it is implied that the entity cares nothing for Node's "long talk" of about ten sentences' affection and status report, and the look on her face... I somehow don't get the feeling that "и@tw╣f@╦w╢K" really translated to "I love you", much less that the sentiment is there. Grand Guignol is said to be a mechanism and a puppeteer, even if it developed an ego. No, there's little question in my mind that it's a bad end worthy of its Game Over. (Though I guess it's worth something if it saves all existence. But without Grimm, who will bridge the divide between eldritch and human? Is there a tolerable future for humanity in that outcome?) >I suppose in that respect, the Black Souls eldritch horrors are different to the original Lovecraftian ones in that the human-like shapes they wear seem to genuinely possess what we can recognise as human drives. Far from overlooking humanity as irrelevant bacteria, they seem curious—and that's in some ways far more terrifying. Well, to be fair, in the original mythos there's some precedent for such interest manifesting in none other than the Crawling Chaos... yeah this isn't comforting, is it. I feel Lovecraft knew what he was doing with that - he posited the existential horror of a cosmos that might rub out humanity anytime for lack of concern about us, and then gave us Nyarly just in case we couldn't see the horror of the other possibility. Anyway, Black Souls seems to have some more positively disposed eldritch entities than ol' Nyarly but this is balanced out by how very bad things seem to have already resulted from eldritch attention, plus the relatively greater immediacy of Azathoth waking. I think the eldritch entities took interest in humanity after Mary Sue randomly did and produced shocking results, perhaps even promising results in the fight for ultimate survival. Maybe humanity still is tiny and unrelatable to some of them, but as microbes go, perhaps we're penicillin. >Perhaps if I reload If I'm reading the event flow correctly, once you've reached Winterbell proper, you should be able to go back and traverse the maps for either route, and Sho should be there. >I suspect it's just the kind of design that expects the player to screw about and experiment using backup saves every time the option is available rather than treating it as a choice with weight, which IMO undercuts things a little. I suppose. I'm just inured to it in RPG Maker games at this point. Actually, perhaps more than inured and more than just RPG Maker games - I've been burned by bad game design often enough that I view restrictions on my ability to save and load with a bit of suspicion. >how did I get it mixed up? Did it play over an earlier ending, or some other emotional moment? ...I'm sorry anon, but one of the things I did while poking around in the game files was Google for a way to search through game events for things. Unless I'm not searching this text dump correctly, the track "ED7" plays exactly once in the whole game. It's possible that there's a different version of the piece that plays at some point, under a different filename, but I don't remember one. >The Crimean Nursing Graveyard does drive me a little nuts. It's such a strange area, different in ways no subsequent part of DLC3 is; just kind of hangs off the side of the game, thematically and mechanically speaking. Yeah, I dunno. There's a tenuous connection with Blackwell, but it seems like they could've bolted it onto the Mental Ward or something, instead of the river boat taking us to a hospital for some reason. The only other thing I can think of is that Winterbell is meant to be hidden in the past or some such, so a connection with the past like the Crimean War and the... other conflict the whole Lion/Unicorn thing is a reference to, which escapes me at the moment, those could be thematic. Also a mystery to me: Why Florence is a fuckin' furry. >Now this is more like it: There's nothing quite like other creators in the mix! When you think about it, such beings merging Gardens is very much like merging households, i.e. Mabel is cheekily proposing a kind of marriage. >Node—on whom I admit to developing just the tiniest Stockholm crush—seems like she would be a good sister-wife. Mabel less so, but then I suspect that she'd definitely be happier calling herself a mistress/other woman and flitting in for a regular bit of wine and dick. It's easy to imagine just finding her sleeping in our bed. Node as cuckquean, Mabel as vixen? I find this all very true and all very acceptable, though I'd also accept Mabel coming to realize she wants more of a connection than that and coming to be honest with herself about it. Either way. Maybe periods of both. If Mabel isn't playing vixen at a given moment, maybe Cheshire can fill in. > This has me back in a cuckquean pantheon mindset, in which multiple creator-goddesses enthusiastically share a single chief god. Another silly tweak on such a setting permits the usual smut-setup of female-only fantasy races: Human men and human women are the mortal echoes of the chief god and goddess, while the various groups of monstergirl etc. species who reproduce with human men are the mortal echoes of the various other creator-goddesses. Healthy mortal families, therefore, reflect the divine family—that is, the esteemed human wife schlicks (very piously) to her husband fulfilling his marital duties to his monstergirl-wives. But I digress. Comfy game about going on journeys with your former-adventurer husband to visit his girlfriends when? Game where you plant worshipful kisses on his balls as he fills up each of those girlfriends WHEN??? I... think I might be acting up. Perhaps with the spoiler tags, anyway. Those sound like fun ideas, though I fear it may be up to users of this board to create such things if they want them to be real. The idea of mortal families reflecting the divine family reminds me of an anon in the Last Sovereign thread being sadly mistaken about Church triple marriages necessitating a human and succubus because it's a Holy Trinity, while the idea of humans reflecting the chief gods while the monstergirls are echoes of others reminds me of spoilery revelations in the plot of another queany game I just recently discovered and... should really make a thread for soon instead of just spoiling it for everyone reading this post, I guess. >"What would happen if you just... let him go?". This is the question that only Node successfully confronts. She executes her repentance—that hair-slash was a beautifully timed gesture—and cleanly completes her conspiracy. Node's hair slash is nice and dramatic. I think there's a connection to hair's significance in East Asian cultures there, but I've also sometimes reflected that braids just look like chains, in a way. Cute chains, though. >Mabel comes close, almost gets there, but notice how she can't help but try for one last little disavowal before she resorts to the nuclear option, literally confessing from behind a fence before she sheds her body. Why live through the awkward reality your words have unlocked when you can be dramatically turned into a red stain instead? Yes, you can read her escort as a brave sacrifice, but we know that Yog-Sothoth of all beings regards mortal shells as disposable toys, distasteful flesh-suits. Indeed, Mabel was always hiding behind bars and metal, lock and key. Worrying if Grimm almost broke through her shell in one way or another. Always talking herself down, "shabby little Mabel", over and over. Only near the end did she venture to get close with Grimm, in terms of emotion or simply rendering an opinion on her little body. If it doesn't work out, oh well, she expects to be rid of the body and the situation soon - she says as much. I think she's grown attached to Grimm and to the form she crafted, else why be shy about it, and why care if he sees it ruined by smashing? Even at the end she doesn't let Grimm get a word in, but I like to think that if he could, he'd tell her that she is beautiful and valued and as worthy of preserving as any jewel box in Shatranj. I think she'd blush as red as any wine. No I have not shaded into writing fanfic in my head, why would you say such a thing? Also, that big revelation of her inhumanity at the end? That she only pretends to enjoy wine for social reasons, and gets drunk off the atmosphere? That's incredibly human. I've done that. In fairness, Mabel may have a pathological fear of getting too involved with anything, if Yog-Sothoth being too active in certain respects risks waking Azathoth. It may be that while others revile her for being a gloomy, lazy old fuck, she has really good excuses for it. It's funny in a way - the cosmic horrors aren't immune to the cosmic horror of their own precarious situation. The whole universe spins in fear or blissful ignorance. >Chuuni goth-loli viceroy needs to be put over Grimm's knee, is what I'm saying. Father Grimm is needed again, is that it? I don't disagree. Outer godlings in need of spankings form a queue, please; we'll be here a while. Breaking queue means you have to take it bare-bottomed~ >The other obvious question, "Why do cosmic horrors care so much about some author-amalgam's gross corpse-dick?", is not worth the fatly laboured breaths heaved between its words. They do touch on canon reasons for this, I believe, if someone does care enough to ask. >Here's what I don't understand about Well, fair enough, and of course there are other possibilities. The stuffed bears reveal an "older sister Alice" who left a while back, and this could be reflected in the CYOA bit with the Liddell sisters - the nameless Second Daughter speaks of a fourth girl "who died here before the estate was built." And it may be this fourth girl who can greet you at the end of the CYOA bit and say "You might just have saved me. Thank you. And I'm sorry for pulling you into this detour. But it's all right now." And that may be older sister Alice, who finally returns at the end and brings you out of the dream. And all this doesn't actually preclude it being Prickett, I dunno. All that said, I don't think any Alice was ever really kidnapped at all, and I don't think anyone actually stays imprisoned or in place once you ascend to the attic, as the stage probably starts the reset process once you pass the point of no return, and I find it entirely believable that Wonderland has special functions to pull the Alice actors to the finale really quickly, used for this intended purpose and also in the hidden/reverse route to try and stop Grimm's unexpected escape attempt.
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>>4198 >Winterbell is as aurally and visually beautiful as most anything I've seen made with RPG Maker assets On this, actually, I loved the area's nuanced feeling so much that had a poke around for more on its music with a mind to studying it. 海国.ogg is "Splash" by Sei Mutsuki, a.k.a. PeriTune (who, incidentally, mentions he suffers severe mood swings and communication difficulties from ASD), specifically its percussionless version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRPbLcz2PBw that starts at 3:40. Those beautiful bells might be based on a celesta/bell-piano, which I'd never heard of before. The overlapping high tones over the washing choral and string pads are almost overwhelming to listen to, though that might just be leftover feels getting in the way. I haven't managed to satisfactorily transcribe anything yet, but the high register of the bells immediately establishes a delicate, clear mood yet forms a melodic top-line that undulates further and further down with every real measure, against... I can't tell if it's more bells, or a piano, softly playing counterpoint. The harmony descends too, at least at first, and think it might be obscuring that descent by having the chord's top voices ascend even as they descend overall. Perhaps it's that descending call-and-response melody on the celesta against the voice/strings that lends the music its initial melancholy "pull". There's something going on in that soft piano(?) counterpoint that adds a lot of emotional texture I can't quite grip. It's beautiful and delicate—but lonely. Then, around 1:11, they've done some cool panning and processing on a repeated descending piano(?) line to make it sound like it's whirling from ear to ear, as though you're spinning weightlessly in place. I thought I heard the vocal tones become a little more prominent after that, and as they assert themselves that "weightless" panning piano motif's starting note ascends a little, combining gentle disorientation with soft pressing-in of texture and being lifted that forms a very understated climax. So—roughly—there's a sequence of melancholy, sinking, opening up, spinning, being warmly enclosed/pressed-in, being softly lifted, an emotional climax and resolution in the shift from repeating line back to melody, and then a stripping away of that pressing-in texture followed by a long return to consciousness. I'm impressed with the track. It's hiding some fairly sophisticated tricks. Hopefully it'll consent to being picked apart a little better than this.
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>>4204 Florence being what she is may have to do with pic related.
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>>4204 >>4209 It might also be a reference to her very first patient, the sheepdog that triggered her hearing her call to nursing. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/canine-corner/201006/florence-nightingale-the-dog-and-the-dream >One afternoon in early February of 1837, when Florence was seventeen years of age, she had an encounter with a dog. The animal was a sheepdog named Cap, owned by a shepherd named Roger who lived near Matlock in Derbyshire, close to her parent's home. Roger lived alone with his dog in a cottage near the edge of the woods. One day some village boys were bored and looking for "entertainment" and they noticed Cap sleeping on the doorstep. In an act of cruel mischief, they began to throw stones at him. The dog stood up to dodge the onslaught, however, one of the stones hit Cap's leg, damaging it so badly that he couldn't put it down on the ground. Despite his love for the dog, Roger couldn't survive without a working sheepdog, and he was poor enough so that he couldn't afford to keep a dog that couldn't work. Thus, with great regret, he went off to pasture the sheep by himself, and to get a bit of rope to hang Cap. >While Roger was out with his sheep Florence rode past the field in the company of a local clergyman. Since they knew the shepherd they stopped to chat for a few minutes. Florence liked dogs and had often stopped to play a bit with Cap, so she asked where the dog was. As Roger told them his story her face began to show a deep and sorrowful frown. A few minutes later, they continued their travels. However, Florence was extremely distressed by the situation, and finally convinced her companion that they ought to at least take a look at Cap and see if anything could be done. The two of them rode borrowed a key and went to Roger's cottage. >As the pair entered the room, Cap recognized them and crawled out from beneath the table to give them a painful greeting. While Florence held Cap's head, the clergyman examined the dog's leg. He explained to the young woman that the injury was not a break in the bone, as Roger had assumed, but merely a bad bruise. He predicted that hot compresses would cure the dog in a few days. Then, under his direction, Florence tore up some old flannel for bandages, lit the fire with the shepherd's tinderbox and boiled some water. She then applied the bandages, wrung out in hot water, to the injured leg. >As they left the cottage to return home, they met Roger, who was walking with his shoulders slumped and ominously carrying a piece of rope. They persuaded Roger not to hang his dog and promised to return the next day to renew the compresses with fresh flannel. Two days later, they met Roger and his flock on the hillside. An excited Cap, still limping slightly, but clearly almost fully healed, bounded up to the Florence and expressed his gratitude by leaving paw prints on her dress. She looked down on the first patient that she had ever nursed back to health, and grinned happily. >The very next night, on February 7, 1837, Florence Nightingale had a dream -- or perhaps it was a vision -- which caused her to believe that she had heard the voice of God informing her that she had a mission. Perhaps it occurred simply because she was still bathed in the warm feeling from having saved Cap's life. Into her mind sprang the belief that this whole incident was a sign from God to tell her that she should devote her life to healing others. Florence in DLC3 had her nursing drive twisted into an obsession with "saving" others to the point that the Nursing Graveyard is a horrific prison, presided over by her oppressive glitch horror shadow-self—literally depicted as though it were her shadow cast large against the walls by her famous lamp—she has become a devouring archetype, holding down and stunting those who fall into her custody. Although it's never mentioned, I would expect that none of her patients have ever been discharged. The typical narrative dream logic you find in this kind of story therefore insists that the altered Florence we meet is externalising her own need to be saved, reflected by her taking on the shape of her very first patient. Whether this twisting reflects anything "true" about her is irrelevant: Like Grimm, she is in the grasp of a corrupter who has literally re-interpreted her according to its malevolent whims—she's as much a prisoner as any of her patients, manifest in her muzzling.
>>4211 Whoops, forgot my second image.
Here's an interesting tidbit that I stumbled across in https://www.chch.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/VV%20Cath%20of%20Alexandria.pdf (PDF related): In Christ Church Cathedral, there's a stained glass window of Saint Catherine, who is depicted with Edith Liddel's face: >Edith had only just announced her engagement a few days before, when she died at the age of twenty-two. In order to commemorate her life, her parents asked the artist to use Edith’s portrait as the basis for Saint Catherine’s face. >Edith’s father was Dean Liddell, the ‘Head’ of Christ Church, and Edith’s more famous sister, Alice is, of course, the Alice who had the book ‘Alice in Wonderland’ dedicated to her by Charles Dodgson who taught at Christ Church. That puts some extra shading around why Catherine is in Black Souls at all, why Edith's ring grants access to Ox Ward, and why Catherine's statue is in Ox Ward of all places.
>>4202 >Should have been a combined paizuri/naizuri scene. I like it. Why not both? Grimm gets enough appreciative comments on his size that a CG of that sort would fit right in, and we can't deny Unis's mouth an opportunity to finally be useful, for once. >>4204 >Also if you're quick you can just run past him in the final corridor before he materializes. What relief it was when I discovered this my second time down there. The second time I fought him in the room with the lever that allows you to bypass much of the castle area, I ended up quitting the game instead of waiting for his endless attack actions to complete. >This is perhaps the "8-foot woman"? Oh! This might explain the Lady enemy, too. I figured she, what with the showing up in the Mental Ward, Ox Ward, and Queensland, was some kind of twisted comment on one of Carroll's ex-lovers or something, the horror of an adult woman. >Similarly I'm reminded of women who claim it's not even slightly gay to want to suck another woman's juices off a man's cock or eat his creampie out of that woman. Y'know, just to pick a completely random example with nothing to do with anyone around here. It's a shame we'll never get to meet someone like that; someone who'd make such credible claims must be far too sensible to post extensively on a niche imageboard. And it's not a man's cock it's not even slightly gay to suck another women's juices off of, it's my man's cock. That's empiricism. >is it really corruption when it's an improvement in every way and you get liberated to be sexually honest and stop repressing your obvious desire to be dominated by a worthy male and convert your rival into a double-blowjob partner? Grimm's is straight, at least, if not narrow. >This is also how I imagine succubi doing their thing a lot of the time, when I don't feel like my fantasies being all dark and edgy - not luring you into damnation or eating your soul, but luring you into the sweet release of giving into what you honestly wanted. It'll feel so good, you know~? Not just for your man, but for you too~ Nice succs are a popular subversion for a reason! Of course this is all a theoretical exercise, a bit of sigil-crafting practice, you're just training against the temptations all transplanar operators routinely face, and naturally she made up all that stuff about being able to "smell" what you really want. This is all just a nice, safe chat. So, should she tug on that conspicuous mistake in the summoning containment grid now or do you need a little more time to get comfortable before you introduce her to your husband? >the way it is implied that the entity cares nothing for Node's "long talk" of about ten sentences' affection and status report, and the look on her face... I somehow don't get the feeling that "и@tw╣f@╦w╢K" really translated to "I love you", much less that the sentiment is there. Grand Guignol is said to be a mechanism and a puppeteer, even if it developed an ego. Hammers and nails, right? That's what's so sad about the whole thing: Grand Guignol wants Grimm's power, just like Mabel said, but in taking on its power Grimm gives up any possibility of changing the game on his own terms. Just another horror. >you should be able to go back and traverse the maps for either route, and Sho should be there. Catslime here I come! Or perhaps she's a nudibranch? Either way I hope she's as fun and definitely not a source of hurt as she looks. >the track "ED7" plays exactly once in the whole game. It's possible that there's a different version of the piece that plays at some point, under a different filename, but I don't remember one. I just looked through BS1's soundtrack, and it's not there either. ...alright. Dream or retrospective hallucination it is, then! >The only other thing I can think of is that Winterbell is meant to be hidden in the past or some such, so a connection with the past like the Crimean War and the... other conflict the whole Lion/Unicorn thing is a reference to, which escapes me at the moment, those could be thematic. The union of the Scottish and English crowns under James VI+I? That's about two and a half centuries away from the Crimean war, besides not being a war itself. The Lion and Unicorn nursery rhyme appeared in Through the Looking-Glass, but I can't see ve