/christian/ - Christianity

Religious discussions and spirituality

SAVE THIS FILE: Anon.cafe Fallback File v1.1 (updated 2021-12-13)

Want your event posted here? Requests accepted in this /meta/ thread.

Max message length: 5120

Drag files to upload or
click here to select them

Maximum 5 files / Maximum size: 20.00 MB

Board Rules

(used to delete files and postings)

Open file (199.43 KB 363x500 Resurrection_(24).jpg)
Deliverance after death? Anonymous 01/13/2022 (Thu) 09:49:44 No.2825
It's generally understood that there can be no deliverance after death. Yet traditional Christianity has long upheld the doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell, that Jesus descended into Hell during His death to deliver the Old Testament righteous as they could not save themselves being under the weight of original sin. So it seems that there was a special case in which this applied. There is also the ancient tradition of prayers for the death. Now, without consideration of Roman Catholic dogmas of purgatory, was this a one-time event? That is, that Christ no longer harrows Hell, and those that die in ignorance of the gospel, for example, following His death and resurrection are condemned to eternal damnation? Or, being that Heaven and Hell are timeless, did in the Harrowing Jesus bring up all the men and women throughout history worthy of deliverance as per His judgement, and not just the spirits of those that died prior to His crucifixion?
You don't have to be a Roman to pray for the dead. You'd have to consult a theologian about the harrowing of Hell but my feeling on the matter is your last suggestion is correct. At the very least your prayers would count retroactively or, in a more accurate way, God would hear all prayers past or future since all moments are alike to the present for Him. You never know what goes through a person's mind in their final moments. So even if there's no intermediary stage between Earth and Heaven, it's still worth praying for the dead. That said I think there probably is although it may not be exactly how it's imagined by Roman Catholics.
The harrowing of hell is a misnomer. The West conflates two concepts which ancient Christians distinguished. Hades and Gehenna are different places. Hades is where the Old Testament righteous and everyone else went, and it is into Hades that Christ entered after His death. Gehenna is the final hell state that the wicked will be delivered into in the end, and as far as I can tell, no one has been consigned to Gehenna yet. Revelation 20:13-15 demonstrate the point. >Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire in this passage is of course Gehenna. The dead are still contained with Hades. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is also a parable about Hades, not Gehenna. Christ makes this explicit in Luke 16:23, saying that the Rich Man is ἐν ᾅδῃ, i.e. in Hades. The fact that people have not been thrown into the lake of fire and undergone the second death is why we should pray for their souls. Hades was changed by Christ entering into it as well—it was a cosmic event, not a one-time thing like it was taught in the West. His soul entered Hades, plundered it, liberated the righteous dead, preached to the people of Hades. Some Church Fathers speak of the ‘Sun of Righteousness’ (Malachi 4:2) entering Hades and illuminating it and transforming it from dark and joyless into Paradise for those who accepted Christ. It is this which the thief on the cross is promised by Christ. The righteous dead today are alive ‘in Christ’ until the resurrection. Even prior to Christ, of course, we know that it is good to pray for the dead, as seen in 2 Maccabees 12:44-46 >for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin. The dead encounter aerial toll-houses immediately after death as well. I think those genuinely ignorant of the Gospel today benefit from the Harrowing even today.
>>2829 I am still confused about this. Some denominations claim Christ was judged FOR you and therefore you have guaranteed salvation through the savior with faith.
>>2882 Christ was punished and killed in our place in the same way that the Israelites performed ritual animal sacrifices under the Old Covenant for the atonement of sins (Lev. 17:11, Heb. 9:22, etc). Christ's death on the cross is one-time sacrifice that will indeed blot out all sins if one puts their faith in Him and follows His commandments (a natural corollary of faith), repenting when needed. While salvation is in some sense guaranteed (if I am not too bold to say it) if one follows the path I indicated in this post, I think that no one should ever become complacent in their supposed salvation. Many saints are clear that one should be repenting and striving to be better until their last breath.
>>2884 >I think that no one should ever become complacent in their supposed salvation. Many saints are clear that one should be repenting and striving to be better until their last breath. That is essentially what I meant.
Open file (1.22 MB 4356x1800 190007.jpg)
With everything that's said itt, would this chart be an accurate description of events?
>>2937 >Protestant soteriology
>>2829 ive thought about this before, what if when Christ went to Hades he preached to the souls there and those who repented were let go. thoughts?
>>2937 ITT what do you guys think the second death will be like? i imagine it as a endless black void where you are forced to contemplate your life choices forever
>>2953 See that's what I was thinking about. Jesus is the ultimate judge, and to pass judgement you need to declare the law and then the sentence. For those that never heard the word, I'm not sure if the gospel would be declared to them, since having died they can't go through baptism into grace. At the least though the declaration of the law is necessary with God fully knowing the conviction of their hearts and minds, whether they repent for their sins or not. The preaching of the word would be satisfaction for those that have lived lives of civil righteousness, that there is a just end, and dread and lament for those that have lived in malice. Jesus having power over life and death, He would have the power to deliver them accordingly, not on their own merit but under His sovereign power alone. The only outlet for this is during the three days He descended into the underworld, as from the Resurrection on He is glorified and forever in heaven, with the gospel accomplished and grace evident to all. The Last Judgment is the sentencing of all creation and the destruction is fully warranted for those that were given to the entertainment of sin. This isn't to say that those that were rescued from Hades / Sheol would be numbered among the Christians in heaven -- it's evident that there is a hierarchy in the afterlife and they would be assigned by the final justice of God. This answers the question of the fate of the unlearned and it ties up any loose ends about God being a tyrant over the universe. He gave every chance He would in respect of free will, however the final decision is His to divide good rightly from evil.
>>2964 I think you forgot to post anon. In any case I recognize that it's an unconventional proposal which was why I made the thread to see if more knowledgeable anons had any objection to it. So far it seems that the next step would be to ask it of even more learned authorities, at least of those that accept the doctrine of a triumphant descent into Hades (which certain wings of Protestantism deny in part or in whole).
>>2967 well i forgot what i was gonna say now, either way good thread, it made me think.
Just as God was destined to exist, so were the 144 000 souls that came from Him. These 144k were slowly lowered to Earth across our timeline. These souls are here to grow from a seed into a tree by learning how they should be. ALL souls go to Heaven. There is no hell. non-whites and women go into the dirt when they die. they don't have souls. Only certain European Men, with blond hair and blue eyes, have souls.
>>3095 Universalism AND ethno-idolatry. We're on a roll!
>god loves everyone >god allows untold millions of people to suffer in hell for all eternity Does anyone know of a way around this?
>>3254 Do you know the Parable of the mustard seed?
Open file (15.40 KB 202x249 download (4).jpeg)
Squeeeeeel like a peeeeg!

Report/Delete/Moderation Forms

no cookies?