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On polygamy Anonymous 01/09/2022 (Sun) 18:50:03 No.2707
This might be an interesting topic to talk about, So throughout the bible Polygamy is never outright forbidden by God. In fact most biblical figures seem to have numerous wives. Including David, Gideon, Abraham, Jacob and more. In some cases it was directly what caused them to stray in solomon's case. But God had written that is what exactly what would happen if you took too many wives read Deuteronomy 17:17 for clarification. As such in this case I believe Polygamy unless you go completely overboard like Solomon did.
>>2707 Strictly speaking, it's a sin. A man and a woman were meant to become one flesh. Adam had a single woman created for him as a helpmate. This was God's intention, and indeed Jesus quotes this verse from Genesis in the Gospels. Even if it was permitted due to the hardness of the Jews' hearts in the Old Covenant, I don't think this applies in the New.
>>2708 It does apply in the new covenant because the old covenant was never done away with. polygamy isn't a sin because it isn't a transgression of the law. That's what a sin is. It should be noted that in some cases like being a priest you were to have 1 wife but many noble men in the old testament had numerous wives. And these weren't men with hardened hearts. David was one of the closest men to God for example.
>>2709 >the old covenant was never done away with Lol. >David was one of the closest men to God for example. Do the names Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite ring a bell for you? David wasn’t some morally flawless figure
>>2709 The Old Covenant was fulfilled, not extended. Jesus made it so that the "laws which they could not follow" were no longer necessary. Judaizing is a mistaken step backwards for that very reason. >>2713 As this anon points out, King David had much to repent for. Credit where credit is due, he did. But that does not mean the misdeed never happened.
>>2709 >Old covenant was never done away with You can't be serious. Are you one of those Hagee types that believes the Jews don't need Jesus because they still have their old covenant? You must be talking about the law... >The law was never done away with The law was fulfilled meaning its purpose had been completed and it was no longer necessary. Stop ignoring the second part of this verse. >polygamy isn't a sin because it isn't a transgression of the law. That's what a sin is. No. A sin is something that goes against our purpose for being which is to be in relationship with God and with other people. Sins are things that harm these relationships. The law was a custodian for God's people until such time as His Son came. It was there to stop them from becoming complete Godless degenerates and because of people like you can only understand good and evil in legal terms. Trying to justify yourself by using the letter of the law is something I expect from Jews. It's this kind of thinking that led them to think you could throw your parents out on the street if you said," What you would have gained from me, I have given to God." >Examples of polygamy Let's turn this around. The Church has always and in all places not allowed polygamy. Why don't you start by humbling yourself and realising that you are claiming to know better than your spiritual fathers and all the saints who were guided by the Holy Spirit. Against the testimony of the Church, you have an observation that the words "Thou shalt not take multiple wives" are not actually present, along with some verses that make passing references to the fact that some people had multiple wives. It's not even comparable. Marriage is a special type of relation first described in Genesis 2: >a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife and they become one flesh When a marriage happens, the man and the woman are no longer separate beings. The man is no longer his own and the woman no longer her own. Therefore, the man is not able to enter into a second marriage because the man does not exist as an individual. There is only the married couple as one being. A couple may not marry again since marriage is between a man and a woman, not between a couple and a woman. Furthermore, by taking a second wife (or a mistress), you inevitably sin against your wife since you take what belongs to her and give it to someone else. You are essentially saying that you no longer wish to be one flesh with your wife anymore and thus you sin against God also since what God has joined, let no man separate. Finally, a man with multiple wives is inevitably going to have a favourite and, therefore, sin against his other wives.
>>2713 Just because David made a dire mistake doesn't take away from the fact that God specifically chose him and more importantly had given him his harem. But even then God straight up said that he had given David Saul's previous wives. 2 Samuel 12:8 "And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. >>2717 >No. A sin is something that goes against our purpose for being which is to be in relationship with God and with other people. Not according to the bible it isn't 1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" Not that it matters because everything you just listed is apart of the Law. Jesus is the door the Law is the requirement to enter through that door. We can't go through the door if we don't believe in the door. But believing is simply the first part.
Let me ask you a simple question : could the average man handle a harem?
>>2719 Could an average harem handle me?
>>2719 It depends on the circumstances.
>>2707 >On polygamy You just get something akin to mormons. They banned it for them for a reason Islam does it to, but only extreme conditions mostly I.E. Most of the male population is dead due to wars and famine. If it isn't banned, it just leads to massive gender inbalance where most men have nothing while a few men have most of the women.
>>2719 >Let me ask you a simple question : could the average man handle a harem? Going back to this >>2722 I got this info from a documentary about North Africa. Most people engaged in it are extremely wealthy so no, the average man can't handle it.
>>2718 >Not according to the bible it isn't You are a judaizing shill who reads every occurrence of 'law' as referring to the law of Moses, when it is obvious that John is referring to the natural law.
>>2718 >everything you just listed is apart of the Law What did I list that is a part of the law? Unless you meant "apart from" the law? But what did I list? I gave you an explanation of what sin is and why polygamy is sinful. >Jesus is the door the Law is the requirement to enter through that door You couldn't be more wrong. >Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[b] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. >Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now. But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. >For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. >Galatians 4:21-5:6 >Do you not know, brethren—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only during his life? >Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. Romans 7:1, 4-6 >But some men [aka you] came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” >The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. >Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab′bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, with the following letter: “The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili′cia, greeting. Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us in assembly to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” >Acts 15:1, 6, 22-29 You are in contradiction with the Holy Spirit.
>>2750 If sin is nothing more than breaking some rules then how is it that there were sinful and righteous men before the law was given? For example see Hebrews 11 for a list of righteous men who were righteous not because of the law. On the other hand, consider most of the world during Noah's time and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who were sinful despite the fact that no law had been given. >Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not; for if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the scripture consigned all things to sin, that what was promised to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. >Galatians 3:19-26 As I said, the law was a custodian of the Jews to teach them and to be a fence to help them avoid the degeneracy of other nations. That's why so much of the law is about things that mark out the Jews from other people. The law was never meant to be anything more than a temporary measure until the time was right for Jesus to come. And what is the right and wrong the law was meant to teach? >And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” >Matthew 22:37-40 That is to say, right is to be understood as being in a loving (in Christian terms) relation with God and with others and so sin is anything that breaks these relations. It is anything that turns us away from God. >1 John 3 >>2732 Stop perverting the faith just so you can follow your own sinful passions and desires.
>>2750 >>2751 Any yet here you are saying god's law isn't perfect. Which it is, Jesus said in Matthew 5 that until everything in the old testament which includes the end time prophecies be fulfilled nothing shall be changed of the law. And Jesus is more reliable than Paul.
>>2707 This is a picture of OP.
>>2709 >I don't know what a concubine is
>>2795 The moderation on this board does nothing while you shill for Jewish works-based salvation. Amazing
>>2795 Jesus fulfilled the law, you aren't Jesus anon Jesus agrees with Paul since the Holy Spirit spoke through Paul
>>2799 One blasphemy leads to another. Let him damn himself.
>>2799 James 2:20 >>2803 No Jesus gives us an atonement for our sins. That's why the entirety of the new testament happened. WIthout Christ we would all be damned. But that doesn't mean that the law is of Ill effect. The law is built of the foundation of two commandments. "I will love the lord thy God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my mind" and "I will love my neighbour as myself." The law is built around these two commandments and saying that God's law isn't perfect is blasphemy.
>>2799 Dubsman, their main task is to handle spam, not the poor arguments of Pastor Randy.
>>2830 The Old Testament law was an incomplete product, not imperfect, and is unnecessary with its fulfillment in Jesus. By loving Jesus you love the purpose for which the law was laid out, thus the ritual law is no longer binding.
>>2832 Matthew 5:18 "“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Now has heaven and earth passed? The only thing that has changed is that Jesus is our sacrifice to redeem us of our sins it's why we pray to God and we get to God through Christ.
>>2833 If we were to interpret that verse how you want it to be interpreted, Jesus Christ didn’t die for anyone sins, and the Law of Moses and its Levitical animal sacrifices are still enough to absolve us of sins. Heaven and earth hasn’t passed away yet. Not one jot or tittle shall pass. The very fact of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross means a change in the Law of Moses. Therefore Christ can be rejected. Better start swinging a chicken around like a Jew
>>2833 "Till all be fulfilled" It was fulfilled
>>2837 >“It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
>>2836 Jesus is the sacrifice we use to atone for sins. That's literally the WHOLE POINT OF HIS CRUCIFIXION. Just as you posted in the other thread. Blood is needed to atone for sins. And Jesus' blood is the atonement for our sins. Everything else still applies. The law as in the moral law. Is still as relevant as ever. Hence why Jesus said. "keep my commandments." 1 John 5:2 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." So no it isn't a contradiction. It's just that Christ is now what we offer as a sacrifice to atone for our sins instead of animals. >>2837 >>2838 It all hasn't been fulfilled because heaven and earth haven't past. We also know that revelation hasn't fully been done yet.
>>2843 Probably wasn't the brightest idea of quoting 1 John 5:2 directly after I said Jesus said keep my commandments but here's the actual verse which I was quoting. John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
>>2843 So jots and tittles have passed from the law through Christ.
>>2843 >It all hasn't been fulfilled because heaven and earth haven't past. We also know that revelation hasn't fully been done yet. He said of the Law. Heaven and Earth passing and Revelation are in the New Testament not the Torah and not the prophets. The purpose of the ritual law of Moses in the Old Testament was done away with in Jesus. That's why the veil tore in the temple. There are no more fleshy ordinances, but the ethical ones. Why is this so hard for you to get? Do you think that eating kosher makes you a righteous person? The practices of the law were prototypes to the understanding of Christ.
>>2846 No because the sin offerings weren't apart of the law. Sin is transgression of the law As I posted earlier in 1 John 3:4, So the sacrifices were what you did when you BROKE the law. Not actually apart of the law itself.
>>2852 >No because the sin offerings weren't apart of the law. Offerings for sin are part of the law, it’s the part of the law that makes right transgressions against said law. This is some next level cope and pilpul. To think that your position could get any dumber
>>2856 Which is completely different, You get locked up in prison for breaking the law, But that doesn't make the prison itself the law. It's the same situation, Understand we are offering Jesus as our sacrifice to God that is how he redeems us from sin. We are still beholden to the law. It's similar to the situation between Abel and Cain. Abel offered a better offering than Cain did and thus was rewarded. Except this time we have to accept Christ. As he is the promised messiah spoken of in the old testament.
>>2857 The prison system, punishments and the regulations surrounding them are part of the law. This is the level of mental gymnastics that judaizers are reduced to.
>>2857 >the penal system is not part of the law
>>2858 >>2861 Well I'll just leave this here because if you won't listen to me, Maybe you'll listen to Jesus. Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." And if you are wondering. The word iniquity in Greek is anomia which means lawlessness. https://biblehub.com/greek/458.htm Also now that I'm looking back this >>2852 was a stupid answer. I was trying to argue that Jesus is the replacement for our sacrifices but that we are still doing the sacrifices through believing on Christ thus the law hadn't changed because we still have a sacrifice. Hence why I brought up Abel and Cain here >>2857 It was very early in the morning I made >>2852. Also in >>2857 the point I was trying to make was the fact that the prison is merely the punishment used as opposed to something else like the death penality.
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>>2865 >your comeback is: no, it's (You) who are wrong Where are your works, worker of "good"?
>>2866 And this is how I know you didn't read my post.
>>2865 Jots and tittles have passed from the law. Cope however you like.
>>2868 If your statement is true then you have called God a liar. Which is blasphemy.
>>2869 All has been fulfilled, so God is not a liar. Under your judaizing heresy, God would indeed be a liar
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>>2867 And this is how I know you don't understand the Bible.
>>2870 All hasn't been fulfilled, The abomination of desolation spoken of in daniel hasn't been revealed yet for an example. >>2871 Is this supposed to be a gotcha? Because that verse supports my point of view. Because it doesn't say the New replaces the old. No it says that BOTH are preserved. Meaning that this does nothing to my argument. In fact it strengthens it by adding that the old law in fact hasn't been done away with.
>>2874 The new law is independent from the old law. It's not mixed like you think.
>>2874 >All hasn't been fulfilled, The abomination of desolation spoken of in daniel hasn't been revealed yet for an example. You're reading the Protestant Old Testament with the missing books.
>>2875 John 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." Jesus never came to replace the law even in this passage it says that the law was given by Moses. It still applies. The things Jesus brought to the table are even more important though as he brought grace and truth as his sacrifice is what gives us the ability to redeem us from our sins. We need faith in Christ as the messiah to even be considered for getting into heaven but the law of Moses are the requirements to actually get into heaven. Christianity isn't merely a religion, It's a way of life.
>>2877 >the law of Moses are the requirements to actually get into heaven Do you eat bacon?
>>2878 >et into heaven Do you eat bacon? No
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>>2880 Do you work on Saturdays? Do you travel from your home on Saturday? Do you wear garments with two different threads? Do you shave? Do you wear phylacteries? Are you circumcised? Do you celebrate Yom Kippur? Do you celebrate Passover? Do you celebrate Rosh Hashana? Here are the 613 laws of the Old Testament, without stipulations, compiled by your good friends the Jews: https://www.jmu.edu/dukehallgallery/exhibitions-past-2018-2019/the-613-mitzvot.shtml
>>2883 >tfw I had faith in Christ my whole life but accidentally wore linen and wool together once
>>2883 >compiled by your good friends the Jews: >good friends It doesn't really matter since OT law is irrelevant nowadays. It served its purpose when the Greek Israelis wrote those laws, but now it's pointless. Example >>2885 >wore linen and wool together once IIRC both materials were hard to come by during the specific era the law was written. Like purple dyes. Need to reverify that
>>2883 That is some ugly and asspie-ish dancing >>2836 >Better start swinging a chicken around Sounds dumb those chickens get killed and left out in the street after they stop swinging it around. Enormous health hazard. I worked in a butcher chop, so I know how toxic and poisonous meat can get
It really is amazing sometimes how threads warp and change on here.
>>2883 I am not friends with the Jews in fact I hate them for being identity thieves and just thieves in general. Also when I say we follow the law remember that Christ is our Judge. He'll be the one deciding whether or not we are worthy to go into heaven. The old testament law is what will probably be used to judge us. We can be redeemed even if we have sinned. I mean We all have sinned. I'm not some perfect individual who has no faults. I've stumbled quite a few times and still do on numerous occasions. But we need to actually put forth an attempt at following the mosaic law. >>2885 That's not how it works. I'm pretty sure Christ will forgive you if you ask for forgiveness for wearing some clothing like that once. It's why you pray for the forgiveness of your sins. >>2891 >It doesn't really matter since OT law is irrelevant nowadays It is relevant though. There's numerous examples from the new testament which show this to be the case.
>>2902 >That's not how it works It is though, you say that the law has not changed in a jot or a tittle, so Christ's sacrifice is invalid because it changes the Law of Moses.
>>2902 You demonstrate ignorance of the law and ignorance is no excuse. You trespass continually and don't even know the extent of your violations of the law to be able to consciously repent for them.
>>2903 This proves to me you haven't even bothered listening to anything I've said.
>>2905 I don’t listen to demons
>>2906 Do you hate me?
>>2908 We pity you.
>>2909 You didn't answer my question.
>>2917 Because you're trying to railroad anons into an answer disingenuously.
>>2922 No I'm not, The question was very related.
>>2924 Well I'm not the person that you originally replied to that called you a demon, but I'm the one that replied saying we pity you. And for my part I don't hate you, but pity you because you have a spirit in you that drives you to err blindly and generate blasphemies and condemnable doctrine.
>>2925 Alright show me where I am generating a "blasphemous doctrine"
>>2934 >By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; >Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive: >for this people’s heart has grown callous; >their ears are dull of hearing, >they have closed their eyes; >otherwise, they might perhaps perceive with their eyes, >hear with their ears, >understand with their heart, >and should turn again; >and I would heal them. Isaiah 6:9-10 It is no use to dispute with you for the others in this thread and others have already done so. You are of a hardened heart and read your own peculiar doctrine over the words and exhortation of others. We've approached you time and again with the testimonies of the scriptures and of the saints but your inclination is to twist them to support your own line. >Do you think that it was from you that the word of God went out? Or did it come to you alone? 1 Corinthians 14:36 Are you so bold as to presume that the perfect understanding of the gospel has come to you, and to you alone, in the face of all that has been preached and practiced by the church over the past 2000 years?
>>2944 > Are you so bold as to presume that the perfect understanding of the gospel has come to you, and to you alone, in the face of all that has been preached and practiced by the church over the past 2000 years? I never claimed I have perfect understanding about the bible, In fact I have been wrong on several occasions But I will say this just because the church has taught it for 2000 years doesn't make it true. Especially when you aren't willing to dispute my doctrine. You claim I have a hardened heart yet you are unwilling to listen to my point of view. Other's in this thread have called me a demon >>2906 I have provided numerous examples that the old law hadn't been done away with. More importantly though is that we should focus on the weightier aspects of it according to Christ himself. Matthew 23:23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Jesus never once denounces the law and he didn't change it either because if he did he wouldn't be sinless because changing the law is a sin. Meaning he wouldn't have been a sinless sacrifice and our sins wouldn't have been forgiven us. Remember that God the father is greater than Christ. John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." Moreover John 3:16 a verse usually posted as a response to anti old covenant law is actually in support of it because when given a bit of context it reads John 3:16-19 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
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>>2965 >You claim I have a hardened heart yet you are unwilling to listen to my point of view. He who wants to be listened to, has to listen to others first. This fruitless venture was manifested by your decision to reject the voices of the innumerable lights of the church gone before you. You do aught but raise division on the board, and on that note I will honor Titus 3:9-11 and 1 John 2:19. If you think you are right, you may as well. The Body of Christ is to be one, universal, united whole: woe to the man who cuts himself loose from the vessel of his salvation.
>>2976 >Innumerable lights. You keep appealing to the majority so I'll respond with Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Just because you have the majority on your side doesn't make you correct. Jesus even says few will find it. Just because the Majority agrees with you doesn't make your statements correct. Christ even says as such. Remember What Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-22, As does God the father. Exodus 23:2 "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:"
>>2987 Jesus died for all, not for you alone. What is few with God is innumerable to man. What is small with God is massive to man: >He replied, “Because of your unbelief! Truly, I tell you that if you have faith [even] like a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you! Matthew 17:20
>>2987 And also >However, Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them, and great ones make their authority felt. But it shall not be so among you! Instead, whoever desires to become great among you let him be your servant. Whoever desires to be first among you shall be your servant, even as the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:25-28 >Jesus arrived in Capernaum, and when he was in the house, he asked his disciples, “What were you arguing among yourselves on the way?” However, they remained silent because on the way, they had argued with one another about who was the greatest. He sat down, called the Twelve and told them, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all, and the servant of all.” Mark 9:33-35 >And so, after washing their feet, he put his outer garment back on, and sat down again. He said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me, ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord;’ and you say so correctly, for this is what I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, you should also wash each other’s feet. I have given you an example, so that you too would do as I have done to you. John 13:12-15
>>2990 >>2991 Even If I said I don't see myself as better than other Christians, you probably won't believe me. I believe that virtue signalling was frowned upon by Christ as shown in Matthew 6, So I'll respond to your first bible verse Matthew 17:20 with my own. James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Faith is the most important aspect of Christianity, That much we can agree with, But thinking only Faith is necessary is misguided. For through our faith we manifest works that glorify Christ. And through our works we prove our faith.
>>3009 It doesn't matter what you say about how you see yourself and just as you said you have to demonstrate it in your action, which means you ought to defer to the traditions of the church: >Do nothing through rivalry or conceit, but in humility, consider others better than yourselves. Do not just look after your own selfish interests but each one of you should consider the interests of others. Let the following be in your mind, which was also in [the mind of] Christ Jesus. He who existed in the form of God did not consider equality with God as something to be taken by force. Instead, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. And beingfound in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to [the point of] death, even death on the cross! Therefore, God highly exalted him, and gave him the Name which is above every name; so that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven, on earth, and under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:3-11
>>3010 >and just as you said you have to demonstrate it in your action So you agree with me, good to know.
>>3012 You misunderstand the end and the practice though. Faith comes before works. Salvation is achieved in faith. We are not condemned for our faults by the law, because of Jesus' atonement. The ritual element of the law is no longer required, with the old temple being destroyed and the new temple being raised in the body of Christ. What remains is the ethical element of the law, which Jesus summarized: >"One of them, a lawyer, then asked him a question in order to test him. “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. The second is likewise, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Matthew 22:35-39 Christians aren't retreading Judaism. We have a NEW Testament. The command is to fulfill the two goals above: >This is his commandment: that we should believe in the Name of his Son Jesus Christ, and that we should love one another, even as he commanded. 1 John 3:23 And to be a witness to this good news, not to the ritual law, which brings death: >The commandment which was [meant] for life, I found to be for death, because sin, finding an opportunity through the commandment deceived me, and through it, killed me. Romans 7:10-11 The law was to show the rigorous standards that God requires of his followers. We are to hold ourselves to the same level in our ethical conduct, while the rituals are dead because Jesus has made creation complete and redeemed it all in all: >For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile all things to himself, both earthly and heavenly, having made peace through the blood of his cross. Colossians 1:19-20 >But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ and who gave to us the ministry of reconciliation. What I mean is that God was reconciling the world* to himself in Christ, not imputing sins, but having entrusted us with the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors of Christ: it is as if God was making [his] supplication through us: we beg you, on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God! 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 *literally in Greek, "the cosmos" The state of the world after the accomplishment of the resurrection was totally and utterly transformed before the eyes of God. That is why the Law of Moses is no longer binding, but that of faith: >But finding fault with the people, God said: >Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, >that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, >and with the house of Judah; >not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, >in the day when I took them by the hand >to lead them out of the land of Egypt; >for they did not continue in my covenant, >and I ignored them, says the Lord. >This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: >After those days, says the Lord; >I will put my laws into their mind, >I will also write them on their heart. >I will be their God, >and they will be my people. >They will not [have to] teach everyone his neighbor, >and everyone his brother, saying: ‘Know the Lord,’ >for all will know me, >from their least to their greatest. >For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness; >I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more. >By speaking of a new covenant, God has made the first one old. And what is becoming obsolete and ageing will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:8-13 >He said to them, “Go into the whole world, and preach the Good News to the whole creation." Mark 16:15
>>3014 >You misunderstand the end and the practice though. Faith comes before works Wrong. It's interconnected remember James 2:26 which I just posted. But also you missed out a part from Matthew 22 which is necessary to understand the bible. Like literally the next verse. Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." The law follows these two commandments because God himself made the law we are to follow. Remember that Satan technically believes that Jesus is the messiah. But is punished because of his wicked works. James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Honestly the entire chapter of James 2 is a massive hit piece against the "only faith is required doctrine." Remember that Jesus, God the father and the holy spirit are one when Jesus says keep my commandments he's talking about the old covenant. 1 John 3:24 "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." Also I think it's pretty clear that modern Judaism isn't anything close to the ancient religion of the bible practiced in the past. In fact I think these current Jews are the Synagogue of Satan spoken of in revelation. Please understand that I do believe that Christ is necessary for salvation in fact it's impossible for a non christian to enter heaven. But think about this for a second. Do you know why the day of Christ's return is called Judgment day? Well obviously if it's a Judgment day, He's gonna Judge us according to the Mosaic law. Remember what Christ said though. Focus on the weightier aspects of the mosaic law first and then try following the lesser laws after you've got a strong foundation. And I already explained that sacrifices have been changed due to Christ's sacrifice.
>>3041 Jesus judges but he also forgives. I'm not saying that faith is a get-out-of-jail free card that cheap preachers like to say. The message of James and of Matthew on works is related to missioning. If your salvation isn't demonstrative to the world, your fault is in failing to use what you have been given to gather people to the Kingdom, not in breaching the law itself: >Indeed, the Kingdom is like a man who was leaving for another country. He called his own servants and entrusted his goods to them. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his own ability. Then he went on his journey. Immediately, the one who received five talents went off, did business with them and earned another five talents. In the same way, the one who had received two gained another two. But the servant who received one talent went off, dug [a hole] in the ground and hid his lord’s money. After a long time, the lord of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. >The one who had received the five talents came forward and brought another five talents, saying: ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents. Behold, I have gained another five!’ The lord said to the servant, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord!’ >The one who had received the two talents also came forward and said, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with two talents. Behold, I have gained another two talents!’ The lord said to this servant, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord!’ >The one who had received one talent now came forward and said, ‘Lord, I knew you that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter. I was afraid! I went away and hid your talent in the earth. Behold, you have what is yours!’ But his lord answered, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! You understood that I reap where I did not sow, and that I gather where I did not scatter. And so, you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming, I would have received it back with interest. Therefore, take away the talent from this one, and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has, [more] will be given and he will have in abundance. But from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’” Matthew 25:14-30 That is why Jesus healed on the Sabbath: >Going from that place, he went into their synagogue. And behold, there was a man with a withered hand. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, the Pharisees asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath day?” Jesus replied, “Who among you, having one sheep, and if this one falls into a pit on the Sabbath day, will not take hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value is a man compared to a sheep! Therefore, it is lawful to do what is good on the Sabbath day.” Then he told the man, “Stretch out your hand.” The man stretched it out, and it was restored whole, just like the other hand! But the Pharisees went out and began to conspire against him, [discussing] how they might destroy him. Matthew 12:9-14 According to the strict interpretation of the old testament law what Jesus did was illegal. That's why the Pharisees hated Him since they followed the letter of the law, not the spirit. What they didn't realize was that God Himself demonstrating the actual purpose of the law, to gather broken humanity to Him. The end goal overrides the details. If you don't believe this you may as well set with the Jews, who enforce the law deceitfully to spite the Kingdom. See the following, where Jesus explains why his disciples breach the Sabbath law: >Now, it happened that he was going on the Sabbath day through the field of grain, and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck some heads of grain. The Pharisees asked Jesus,a “Behold, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath day?” Jesus replied, “Have you never read what David and those with him did, when he had need and was hungry? How he entered into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the presence, which is not lawful [for anyone] except for the priests to eat. And [how] David also gave it to those who were with him?” Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for mankind, not mankind for the Sabbath! Therefore, the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” Mark 2:23-28, Matthew 12:1-8, Luke 6:3-4 Following from this, Satan is condemned because he trips over the innocent into sin: >but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for such a person that a huge millstone be hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matthew 18:6
>>3041 >"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." >The law follows these two commandments because God himself made the law we are to follow. The hang in the verse is the same word that is used to describe Jesus hanging on the cross. The law was hung up with Jesus, and died with him, and as a result of his death the new testament was instituted. The old testament was principally required because God in the flesh in the form of Jesus Christ wasn't yet revealed to the world. After the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus the contract has been nullified. >Honestly the entire chapter of James 2 is a massive hit piece against the "only faith is required doctrine." Abraham was called to righteousness before he did anything to merit it: >For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness.” Now, to the one who works, the reward is not considered as a grace but as something owed. Romans 4:3-4, Genesis 15:6 >And I already explained that sacrifices have been changed due to Christ's sacrifice. It's not only sacrifices, it's the entire creation that's changed. Your horizon is too short. All the universe and all time, and all action, is the working of God. God judges always and has total knowledge of all things. God isn't contained in human vanities but proceeds above and beyond them: >But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built. 1 Kings 8:27 >However, the Most High does not dwell in places made with hands, as the prophet says: >'Heaven is my throne, >and the earth is a footstool for my feet. >What kind of house will you build for me?’ says the Lord; >‘or what is the place of my rest? >Did not my hand make all these things?’ Acts 7:48-50, Isaiah 66:1-2 And finally: >...For the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, are yours forever and ever, Amen. Matthew 6:13

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