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The Virgin Mary Anonymous 01/03/2022 (Mon) 02:08:53 No.2355
The Theotokos, Queen of Heaven, and Mother of God. This is the thread for discussing Mariology, miracles, apparitions, and visions of our Lord's Mother.
An essential source of teachings regarding Mary: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm It’s honestly surprising how influential this text is yet it did not make into the official canon. I was at an Orthodox church a month or so ago and they even commemorated her presentation to the Temple as depicted in this work.
It is truly meet and right to bless you, O Theotokos, Ever blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, Without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos, we magnify you! https://orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos Speaking of the Orthodox, our entry on her.
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It was a Catholic who pushed me onto the right path regarding Mary during my move from Low to High Church Anglicanism. I asked him to please explain what the deal was with her. We talked for a while and then he asked me if I thought Mary was the mother of God. I thought for a moment and replied, "She's the mother of Christ... and Christ is God... so I guess she must be." My logic seemed irrefutable but it still didn't seem right to me. It was only later that I realised I had taken "mother of God" to suggest that Mary was somehow prior to God temporally or ontologically or that she was greater than He. This simple misunderstanding was what had confused me when Catholics talked about Mary. The final push was when I one day imagined Christ and the Church as being like children. Jesus invites us over to his house. While playing together, his mother comes in with cookies to say hello. Then I imagined if some of the children said, "You're cool, Jesus, but does your mum have to be here? We don't want to play with her." This was such an awful imagining that it changed my outlook and turned my increasing understanding about Mary's role in the Church into practice. I couldn't deny Mary if Jesus himself wishes us to love her and she us. As it says in another of our great hymns (not the one posted which is my favourite Marian hymn): Shall we not love thee, Mother dear, Whom Jesus loves so well, And to his glory year by year Thy praise and honour tell?
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>>2414 >when traditional Protestantism claims to adhere to the decisions of the first four ecumenical councils but is absolutely clueless, if not hostile when it comes to Mariology and the declaration of Mary as the Mother of God
>>2417 I think that's just a little bit harsh. I shouldn't be taken as representative of the average Christian. My knowledge of Christianity was atrocious. Seriously bad. As in "the Left Behind series formed my theology" bad. My grandmother, although a wonderful person, has a habit of falling for false teachers such as John Hagee. Unfortunately, she was a strong influence on me as a child because she was always buying our family books and I was an avid reader. Anglicanism is not hostile to Mary (although some evangelical-ish churches try to ignore her). For Christians who have a problem with Mary, I think it's a matter of being afraid of accidentally committing idolatry. They try to steer so clear of it that they end up going astray in other areas. Your pic sums up my attitude towards this. I'm not angry about having been brought up in a watered down version of the faith. Nor am I up in arms against their heresy. I'm sad because they throw the baby out with the bathwater and so I can't share in the fullness of Christianity with them. I can no longer imagine Christianity without Mary.
>>2419 It's fairly simple in that Mary is to be respected and venerated as the exemplar among Saints (she was worthy enough to be chosen for the honor of bearing the Son of God), but not worshipped. The problem as I see it is that many Protestants in the modern day venerate Jesus as a "swell guy" and teacher, and worship God. Thus, our veneration of Mary looks like what they do for Jesus. >Left Behind How? I could have sworn that it was much more a Burger thing than Bong.
>>2419 >I think that's just a little bit harsh The cluelessness part was from personal experience like your own, and the hostility part stems from those such as John Calvin and his theological heirs which considered calling Mary the Mother of God to be idolatry and vehemently decried it in the name of protest against Roman Catholicism.
>>2467 Iconoclasm really is a kind of madness. Even if you don't think she should be worshiped, why would you carve out the face of Christ's Mother?
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>>2420 >>2467 I'd never heard someone use the word "Protestant" until I met a Catholic. I was only familiar with the word from history books. It was quite the surprise to learn that this is how they view other churches. But it's a little confusing as to what you mean by it. Am I a Protestant? Presumably. What about Methodists? Are they Super Protestants? Baptists? Evangelicals? Pentecostals? I've heard people describe Pentecostalism as Protestant as if it's even remotely comparable to Lutheranism. My point is that when you say >many Protestants in the modern day venerate Jesus as a "swell guy" and teacher, and worship God I have no idea who you mean. There's also the question of whether we're speaking about what a church has historically taught or what modernists and the poorly catechised have floating around in their heads. I think if you asked even "semi-devout" Christians if Jesus was God or just a good teacher, most would say the former. >veneration vs worship I doubt a huge number could tell you the difference. I would not have been able to back then. Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea and I couldn't say if lots of people merely venerate Jesus. I'll have to look into that and think about it some more. The problem I had was not separating veneration of saints and worship of God (I never believed that Catholics worshipped Mary) but rather what their role was and how we should think of them. >How? I explained how in my post. I am neither Burger nor Bong. Come to think of it, the differences in our experiences could probably be related to this. >Calvin Calvin was a mistake. Wouldn't surprise me if he's to blame.
>>2481 >But it's a little confusing as to what you mean by it. Am I a Protestant? Presumably. What about Methodists? Are they Super Protestants? Baptists? Evangelicals? Pentecostals? I consider Protestantism as comprise of the church denominations which arose during the Reformation and their descendants. So Methodists are Protestants in that they originally did want to remain Anglicans but were expelled, and obviously didn't opt to return to Catholicism. Baptists arose during the Reformation too; Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism arose out of Methodism through the Second Great Awakening in the United States and elsewhere. Of course this is my personal understanding and depending on who you're talking to, when they say Protestant, they may actually be referring specifically to Evangelical/Charismatic megachurches.
>>2467 Is this also the beginning of nonsense like declaring that women have no souls? The exemplar of all good women is nothing special in his vision of reality, after all.
women don't have souls. God only breaths life/soul into men. God made women to serve men. women are nothing but flesh robot slaves. mary was just another golem. Jesus needed to parents to provide for him, so he was placed into a random woman. mary is not special. she's just another golem.
>>3056 Nice bait. Its clear you only wish to sow discord.
>>3058 Almost certainly, but you know what, I'm a fa/tg/uy, so let's have some fun. >>3056 So, you acknowledge the divinity of Jesus. Yet you believe that Mary was a 'random' choice, nevermind on its face that the Almighty governs all Creation, and thus there is no such thing as random chance. You also seem to disregard the Gospels themselves and the Archangel Gabriel himself, seeing as all four begin with the Annunciation of Christ's conception and the statement (in one capacity or another) of Mary's worthiness prior to that moment(which included her extensive noble genealogy in one case). Then there's your use of the term golem, and how that term is specifically applied by Talmudic rabbis to women in general. So what do I win, Judaicus?
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>>3067 >extensive noble genealogy Here's something I've been wondering recently. Was it common for Jews back then to keep extensive family records?
>>3056 >women don't have souls. This is a false teaching. The Bible teaches that woman by herself is not created in the divine image, though. A controversial teaching, but this is what the Word of God teaches us >1 Corinthians 11:7— For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. >Genesis 1:27— So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. We see that man is by himself both image and glory of God, but the woman is merely the glory of man. She lacks the image. The woman is a help-mate for the man, and was created from Adam’s rib. But how do we explain Genesis 1:27? Genesis 1:27 is talking about human nature in the abstract. Paul is treating the woman in 1 Corinthians 11:7 in her quality as a help-meet. She is incomplete without a man in a marital union. Woman by herself is not in the divine image. It is only realized when she is joined as one flesh with her husband.
>>3056 What you perceive as your soul is just your groundless superiority complex. Your reason for attacking women is either homosexuality or being undesirable due poor genetics and socialization.
>>3088 While this is likely true, why that reasoning? He might even be unhinged.

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