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Iconodule Thread: In Defence of Icons Anonymous 05/10/2022 (Tue) 18:36:00 No.10837
Since we have vile Muslims and prots who attack our Holy Icons. I decided to make a thread dedicated to posting icons and defending Iconography. Icons means image. Images can be words (spoken or written), symbols, parables, drawings, etc.. The bible is iconographic. It images biblical persons and events through written words or spoken recitations. Biblical verses can also be depicted in drawings/icons (pic: Gergesene demoniacs; Pharisee and Publican). The Bible is clear against the worship of images while being in support of images. All bible verses that call out images, are in the context of the image being worshiped or replacing God (i.e. someone believing the wood and ink created them and can save them) -Biblical events symbolize/image other things The incarnated Son of God is an image/icon of the Divine. >Colossians 1:15: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. >John 12:45: "And whoever sees me sees him who sent me." The old covenent is an image of the new covenent >Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. " Messianic prophecies through images (many examples but I will give one, joseph is an image of Christ) >Joseph was rejected by his family, was put in the earth, was accepted by gentiles, was exalted among gentiles, saved the entire world during the famine >Christ was rejected by Israelites, was accepted by gentiles, was put in the earth, was exalted, saved humanity by destroying death -Man made material images in place of worship Cherubim icons in place of worship >Exodus 26:1: “Moreover, you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen and blue and purple and scarlet yarns; you shall make them with cherubim skillfully worked into them." Joshua and Israelites bow down before two massive Cherubim icons. >Exodus 25:22: There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel. >Joshua 7:6: Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the Lord until the evening, he and the elders of Israel. And they put dust on their heads. -Divine effects from interacting with man made objects out of faith and obedience to God, not the object itself. Looking at a symbolic man made bronze serpent heals you >Numbers 21:8-9: And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. Sick woman desperately tries to touch the garment of Christ, not out of faith for the garment, but out of faith in Christ. >Luke 8:44: "She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. " St John of Damascus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnCPQsjl1k4[Embed] Debunking Iconoclasts using the Bible only (even though I clearly did that above) https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2020/02/19/veneration-of-icons-an-unbiblical-tradition-or-biblical-truth/
>>10837 I like how unbelievers make icons of their gods because then their gods can be "killed" by destroying the icons. It's hard to see the "holly virgin" as such when she's lying on the floor in pieces.
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>>10839 If someone tore a photograph of your grandmother, would it cease to be an image of her?
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See >>10712 >>10733 >>10743 and >>10749 for a refutation of idol worship >Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
>>10846 The image doesn't refute iconography one bit. It plays into the argument of diffentiation between veneration and worship of images.
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>>10846 You were thorougly debunked. If you wish to have a debate that we can record and post on here. Let me know we can set up on discord . I clearly state in my OP that all bible verses that call out idolatery talk about WORSHIPING the image, not using them as objects of veneration and symbolism. St Augustine talks about people worshipping the sun or the statue of the sun. Both are created objects so they switch between them and between other gods like the sky, the sea, the thunder, statues, etc... Totally irrelevant.
>>10846 The image directly defends icons. >It may be objected that we ourselves have many vessels and other accessiories made of similar metals, which we use in the celebration of the sacraments. They are consecrated to divine service, and are caled holy in honor of him who is worshipped through their use of our salvation. Such vessels and implements are obviously the work of humans hands: what else could they be? But do they have mouths that will never speak, or eyes that will never see? And does the fact that we make use of them to offer our supplications to God mean that we are begging anything from them? OF COURSE NOT.
>>10846 Reminder: >the Chronicle of Theophanes: >ANNUS MUNDI 6215 (SEPTEMBER 1, 722— AUGUST 31, 723) 7. 4. 9. 18. >In this year a Jewish wizard who made his headquarters at Phoenicia Laodikeia came to the Arab caliph Yezid. He told him that he would rule the Arab state for forty years if he would condemn the honored and revered icons in the Christians’ churches throughout his entire empire. The senseless Yezid believed him and promulgated an all-embracing edict against the holy icons. But by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the intercession of His uncorrupt Mother and all the saints, Yezid died in the same year, no sooner than his satanic doctrine had been heard by the masses. >But the Emperor Leo caused us many evils, because he shared this malignant, illegal, and evil doctrine. He found a partisan for his stupidity: a man named Beser, who had been a Christian prisoner in Syria and had apostatized from his faith in Christ and converted to the Arabs’ doctrine. https://archive.org/details/TheChronicleOfTheophanesTrans.ByHarryTurtledove1982
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>>10849 >You were thorougly debunked. That is absolutely laughable. You didn't even pretend to address my points, instead after seeing at the start of the discussion that you could not contest the field of this topic you retreated to what you thought was higher ground, shifting to assaulting the authority of God in scripture to deflect His condemnation of your sins. >I clearly state in my OP that all bible verses that call out idolatery talk about WORSHIPING the image Which in spite of Greek and Romish pilpul includes things like pic related >Both are created objects So is Mary and a statue of Mary >>10851 So you use your idols in the dispensation of the sacraments? Obviously the objects he refers to are not images, but things such as a cup for the Lord's supper, or a basin for baptism.
>>10856 It's funny you should mention the pious emperor Leo, because following the so-called Second Council of Nicaea the decrees of hat council found their way into the court of the pious king Charlemagne, who did not (in spite of the order of the bishop of Rome) simply embrace the ruling but was extremely skeptical since the worship of images had never been the habit of the Franks since their conversion, but he called a council of his churchmen at Frankfurt, which rightly condemned the false council at Nicaea and maintained the prohibition of idolatry throughout his realm.
>>10858 >>10858 We are clearly talking about Augustine being in favour of icons and you taking his quote out of context where he clearly states that >Worshipping created things bad >Using created things in worship good
>>10863 >>Worshipping created things bad Good to see we agree that the idolatry this thread is devoted to is not allowed.
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Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
>get thoroughly blown out >make a new thread And what, the cycle will continue until everyone gets tired of preaching to the deaf?
>>10872 Op is an actual autist, no amount of arguments can stop an Aspie. Pray for him.
>>10872 If you call puerile one-liners and misuse of Scripture "blown out," sure. I'll remind you that the Iconoclast OP converted to Orthodoxy. It's our game to lose, Mister Four-Bare-Walls-and-a-Sermon. Go on. Tell me how making the Pastor a Master of Ceremonies is not it's own form of ridiculous idolatry, of spectacle. Oh, and before you start spluttering about it being an American tradition... >For many eighteenth-century Britons, attending church on Sunday marked the high point of the week. They expected a performance from the man on the pulpit, but unfortunately they were often disappointed. In her diary for September 29, 1785, Lady Eleanor Butler notes, “Went into the Church, heard the Vicar by his snuffling, Lisping, and Vile reading spoil the most awful and Solemn Service.” >Sensing a need, John Trusler, an enterprising Church of England clergyman-turned-publisher, issued The Sublime Reader with careful instructions on how to perform the service, including the advice to keep the sermon “short and plain,” so as not to overtax the listener. >Even better, he published a powerful collection of ready-made sermons for idea-strapped colleagues to resort to in a pinch. To fool eagle-eyed members of the congregation sitting in the church galleries, they were printed with a typeface that looked like handwriting, so that whoever was using them would not get caught cheating. Yes. This is part of what inspired that ghastly man-made tradition that is modern showmanship at the pulpit, and televangelism at its worst. >>10867 Oh, you want to tear down the Temple? The one filled with all kinds of images? Because I'm pretty sure the Almighty didn't ask for that until He commanded the Romans to do it.
>>10876 >Oh, you want to tear down the Temple? Yes.
>>10867 >Using icons while claiming they are idolatery >>10880 So God commanded idolatery for centuries? >>10872 >>10875 You have not responded to any arguments I made so far. You just think that repeatedly replying means you won the argument. Me thoroughly exposing your non-sequitors in audo >>10802 This is your whole argument: p1: You use objects in worship p2: Using objects in worship = worship of the objects c: You worship objects Since I proved biblically that premise 1 and 2 are flawed and you conceded this. The conclusion you keep asserting is unjustified. Please reconstruct a new argument clearly stating your premises and the conclusion. Clearly state your argument, stop moving the goal post. >Worshipping using items is idolatery >no worshiping with items is fine, but with "context" its idolatery >no worshiping with items and context is fine, but you guys worship the Virgin Mary Iconoclasts: Muslims, communists, enlightment revolutionaries, protestants (demons from the gates of hell) Iconodules: Worshippers of Christ within His Body/Church who will prevail against the gates of hell. Agree to a voice debate and I will share details. Don't ignore my challenge.
And now we have reached the part of the discussion where OP shits his pants and starts posting epic memes in place of anything resembling an argument
>>10910 It's not a meme, it's a refutation of your position.
>>10913 There is one thing that resembles an argument in that post, which was the strawman argument about objects. Unfortunately this weak argument was already refuted by me >>10743 "Yet when I worship God before an open bible, the bible's presence is merely incidental, and it is as if it does not exist since I am offering my worship to the invisible God who is everywhere. Yet these people go up to these high places specifically to see these images and fall before them, not as mere scenery but the target of their worship." and by Augustine >>10846 "It may be objected that we ourselves have many vessels and other accessories made of similar metals, which we use in the celebration of the sacraments. They are consecrated to divine service and are called holy in honor of Him who is worshipped through their use for our salvation. Such vessels and implements are obviously the work of human hands; what else could they be? But do they have mouths that will never speak, or eyes that will never see? And does the fact that we make use of them to offer our supplications to God mean that we are begging anything from them? Of course not."
>>10913 The rest of it was just memes, though.
>>10917 state your propositions and conclusion. How do you conclude that the images they go to worship around are "the target of their worship". That's the conclusion. What's the premises? >>10918 >Why do I need to justify my position? Are you meming? Still waiting for you to agree to a voice debate, so it can be posted on this board in every thread you post your failed heresy.
>>10923 My Lord commanded me not to cast pearls before swine.
>>10918 >>10917 >>10910 >>10880 >>10875 >>10872 >>10867 >>10864 >>10861 >>10846 This idiot is stuck in 3 threads he has been spamming dodging the same question. >>10895, >>7947, >>10850 >Which authority do you get the bible from? >Which authority interprets the bible? A Church, a group, yourself? God is not a validate answer. We know it's God. But though which medium does it reach us. Are you divinely inspired?
>>10924 Are pearls idols?
>>10925 God.
>>10929 This can mean two things 1. I am God 2. I am divinely inspired (I am the Church) Self-worship is idolatery brother.
>>10930 It means you are faithless.
Read St. John of Damascus. He made me stop being an iconoclast.

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