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Trinity Anonymous 05/07/2022 (Sat) 19:27:38 No.10494
Why is the trinity more necessary than alternative divine nature doctrines? Like unitarianism (Judaism, Islam), or semi-polytheism (Hinduism). Even if the Father and the Son are necessary for making a complete link between the metaphysical and the material, why is the Holy Spirit deemed essential to the formula, despite no one entirely being sure what the Holy Spirit is even for?
>>10494 >Why is the trinity more necessary than alternative divine nature doctrines? Because it's true?
>>10496 Truth claims in themselves are not enough to sustain a strong theology. Every religion claims they are true, but the strengths under material constraints is weighed by their additional evidence, arguments, and results.
>>10499 Theology comes from revelation and the experiences of the prophets and the saints. It is derived from the reality of God, not the formation of intellectual idols. God is triune. Revelation reveals this. End of story.
>>10503 Idiot, if it was end of story, Christianity wouldn't be weakening by the year. The Holy Spirit seems especially inessential, since the interstitial multiple substance bearer is provided by the son. Maybe Islam had it right by equating the Holy Spirit to the Mother Mary. The fastest growing religion, and a third of the world, seems to think that works well from their revelation, which has convincing truth value.
>>10506 > Christianity wouldn't be weakening by the year If you were a true Christian who had the Holy Spirit, you would realize that we live in the end times and that 'the love would grow cold' before Jesus came back, anon. Jesus Himself said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. The Holy Spirit dwells in the Christian, and brings forth fruits of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and gentleness, and self-control. Rejecting the Spirit is a damnable heresy that was debunked millennia ago.
>>10507 No Christian alive is absolutely certain the Holy Spirit is real. To do so would require actual divine knowledge, or omnipotence. The best anyone can have is faith, or in your case, radically imbalanced conviction. If you can't see your claim holds about as well as any random Muslim or Jew's end times or theological claims, please stop talking to me.
>>10521 >No Christian alive is absolutely certain the Holy Spirit is real. But that's wrong. Millions of us are absolutely.certain. the Holy Spirit is not only real, but intimately present. And that's not even counting nominal Christianity that are all Bible believers, and are also convinced. Are you a Christian BTW?
>>10522 Yes. But they're not convinced at all. They just never thought about it. In fact in dialogue with Muslims, many of them will get filtered by the Trinity, and some abandon Christianity altogether when facing the seeming incoherence of the Trinity.
Anyway, with God being ultimate simplicity of essence, why are the other two parts of his unity necessary for his plan? Christ is more obvious, he provides the perfect link for us to the part of God greater than Christ. So where does that leave the Holy Spirit? Should the Trinity more essentially be the Duality, with the Holy Spirit being more of an ability of God, rather than an volitional entity?
>Because it's true? >God is triune. Revelation reveals this. End of story. >Rejecting the Spirit is a damnable heresy that was debunked millennia ago. The world would have been a better place, if children were taught mathematics and greek philosophy instead of Le bible™.
>>10527 You know I still prefer kooky Circular Reasoning christian anon to you, dirty fedora tipper.
>>10527 Gay fedora tipper
>>10527 pedophile prophet
>>10527 >greek philosophy Christian philosophy is better. and if youre gonna be contrarian then atleast pose a serious argument so that we can discuss.
>>10538 Are you a biblical literalist?
>>10545 dunno what that means. i just read the Bible
>>10550 Do you think the bible is a literal historical record of events and follow it literally or do you consider the tales told in it to be of a more symbolic nature and have a nuanced understanding of the NT/OT.
>>10553 i consider the historical accounts of the Bible to be historical but i also think that there is alot of symbolic/old language that gets used both when addressing historical issues and when not
>>10521 > No Christian alive is absolutely certain the Holy Spirit is real Absolutely and 100% wrong. When the Spirit comes over you, there is zero doubt, and it is powerful and unique, and you are filled with perfect love and joy and it totally changes your relationship with God. Pray to God about this and read about the Spirit, and God willing, He will come over you before long.
>>10553 Both.
>>10506 >The Holy Spirit seems especially inessential, That's because of the dirty German heresy of the filioque.
>>10557 I am not trolling but >Absolutely and 100% wrong. When the Spirit comes over you, there is zero doubt, and it is powerful and unique, and you are filled with perfect love and joy and it totally changes your relationship with God. This sounds too vague, can said experience be quantified or qualified? Can changes to the persons brain be measured was there any experiments performed on people experiencing the holy spirit? What makes it different from LSD or shroom experiences? >and you are filled with perfect love and joy and it totally changes your relationship with God. Sorry if i sound rude but this sounds like a manic episode.
>>10564 You will never have God if you think in this sort of attitude. I don’t need external validation according to worldly wisdom and science. The Bible says that the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. And indeed it is. I know what what I experienced in prayer and that it sounds crazy, but I have had several experiences akin to this in prayer, not all of them being anywhere near that intense. And believe me that I have tried to rationally explain away the things that have happened to me in prayer over the years. > What makes it different from LSD or shroom experiences? I wasn’t hallucinating, wasn’t talking with machine elves (demons) and was fully lucid and awake, but merely in a state of prayer. You should just pray and ask God for guidance, and ask Him to show Himself to you. Don’t expect Him to act like a genie or a puppet for you, but God 100% unironically does listen to prayers like this and will make Himself obvious right then and there if He feels that it is beneficial for you that He does such a thing. Speaking from personal experience.
>>10494 Because God's energy and essence are not the same thing and this theological distinction is why the Holy Spirit MUST exist in order to form the holy trinity since man can feel the one but not the other.
>>10527 Don't you have a banana to shove up your ass?
>>10557 This isn't true. A person could be possessed by a demon and feel this way meanwhile actually being set on the wrong path.
>>10578 Why can't Christ be the part of God we feel, since he's already the link between worlds?
>>10613 That’s why one should always test the spirits and use discernment
>>10616 Are you forgetting it was Christ Himself who breathed the Spirit onto His apostles? Or the fact that the Spirit came over the assembled apostles on Pentecost and empowered them with its gifts? Or everything Paul said about the work of the Spirit? It’s what Scripture teaches.
>>10620 Yes and I'm using discernment through rationality. That you can't may indicate you're taken by demons. Better double check on that. >>10621 So the Holy Spirit is just parts of God that can be utilized by humans?
>>10622 I suggest you read the bible and then come back to this discussion afterwards with further questions.
>>10622 >So the Holy Spirit is just parts of God that can be utilized by humans? Yesn't.
>>10625 Where do I read on the theology of the Holy Spirit, as far as that can be done? I suspect you and everyone else on this board only knows about as much as me on the matter, based on the lack of thorough theology offered so far. >>10624 yawn
>>10627 Thanks for confirming you haven't read the bible and I can hide this thread without feeling guilty about leaving an apostate in the dark.
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>>10627 >I suspect you and everyone else on this board only knows about as much as me on the matter, based on the lack of thorough theology offered so far. The thing is a lack of insight into the Holy Spirit is heavy in the Western church because it's subordinated to the Father and the Son in Catholic theology and its derivatives including Protestantism, except perhaps in Pentecostalism who have a completely separate sphere of thought from traditional Christian theology. I posted in another thread hoping for responses from the Orthodox on this board on their pneumatology (the study of the Holy Spirit), but they appear to be away. The Eastern church seems to have a deeper focus on the effective action of the Spirit in their traditions of ascetic prayer and mystic contemplation. You asked here: >>10564 >What makes it different from LSD or shroom experiences? The Western understanding has always been that encountering the Spirit leads to ecstatic revelation, as with the Catholic saints of Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila, as well as the obsessions of Charismatic / Pentecostal Protestants about gaining the ability to speak in nonsense tongues. This is actually excluded as a mode of the Spirit's operation in the East and can even fall under what they call the sin of Prelest, spiritual delusion (if you read into it, it answers your point in >>10613). The Eastern understanding (from what I am aware of as an outsider) of the working of the Spirit is in its ability to perfect the conscience and discernment of the believer in faith and conduct, as part of the process of theosis, the achievement of (in a sense) union with God. It's also funny that you stated: >>10506 >Maybe Islam had it right by equating the Holy Spirit to the Mother Mary As it brought to mind two tangential points. The first is that Muslims allege that Christians worship idols of Gabriel, Jesus, and Mary as the Trinity, which is both nonsense but also oddly understandable if their encounters of Christianity are with Catholic or Orthodox churches (making them bedfellows with Protestant critics of religious iconography). Second, if the Mariolatry in the Catholic church is anything to go by, it basically did substitute celebrating the Spirit with celebrating Mary, and the Trinity nigh with a Father-Son dyad, inspiring your confusion.
>>10629 Presumption is a mortal sin, and you're risking damning yourself by presuming you have God's mercy, despite being full of unfounded assumptions, and acting so callous. I've read the Bible, but even if I hadn't--evident by your foolish behavior, your mediocre, superficial understanding of the Bible doesn't make you special, nor should you ever try to act like this much of a stick assed faggot about it again. 1 Cor 3:19 is generic, but still relevant for your case.
>>10639 Thank you for your effort post. I too will await our mystic ortho pal.
>>10639 >>What makes it different from LSD or shroom experiences? This post is not me.
>>10494 This >>10503 Because it is revealed. We don't decide how god is through our rational minds. God reveals himself to us as a trinity through the Church (EOC) Natural theology is a failed model. This PDF explains why.
>>10521 You can't have certainty or knowledge at all of anything without first affirming that you know the Trinity and the Holy Spirit. The foundations of knowledge are revelation. We cannot base our knowledge on limited fallable being. We need an Absolute being (God) to exist and reveal Himself for knowledge to be possible. I am not saying knowledge is impossible if you deny this, I am just saying you would be in denial of reality. I.e. your world view would be unjustified or incoherent.
>>10682 Sure but are there better supporting theological grounds for the Trinity?
>>10683 >the entirety of Biblical revelation >the tradition of the Church from the get-go >the lives and writings of the saints If this isn't enough for you, nothing will be.
>>10684 What did the saints and early church make of it? How come it's never mentioned on here or any other imageboard?
>>10685 The early church and its saints were firmly Trinitarian. Now will you see the exact terminology of three hypostases in one ousia? No, but it is implicitly there. The early church would often speak of the Trinity with various sorts of comparisons from nature, among these were (a) the sun, its rays, and light; (b) the root, the trunk, and the fruit of a tree, (c) a spring of water and the fountain and river that issue from it; (d) three candles burning simultaneously which give forth inseparable light; (e) fire, and the light and warmth that come from it; (f) mind, will and memory; (g) consciousness, knowledge, and desire; etc. The specific formula of three hypostases and one ousia was made explicit after heretics emerged who tried to overthrow crucial parts of the faith such as the deity of Christ or the deity of the Spirit. Paul wrote constantly about the Spirit, as did every other early Church Father, and they were unanimous in His divinity. These ways of speaking of the Trinity were seen to be inherently limited though, as St. Gregory the Theologian writes in one of his homilies: >I have very carefully considered this matter in my own mind, and have looked at it in every point of view, in order to find some illustration of this most important subject, but I have been unable to discover anything on earth with which to compare the nature of the Godhead. For even if I did happen upon some tiny likeness it escaped me for the most part, and left me down below with my example. I picture to myself an eye, a fountain, a river, as others have done before, to see if the first might be analogous to the Father, the second to the Son, and the third to the Holy Ghost. For in these there is no distinction in time, nor are they torn away from their connection with each other, though they seem to be parted by three personalities. But I was afraid in the first place that I should present a flow in the Godhead, incapable of standing still; and secondly that by this figure a numerical unity would be introduced. For the eye and the spring and the river are numerically one, though in different forms. >Again I thought of the sun and a ray and light. But here again there was a fear lest people should get an idea of composition in the Uncompounded Nature, such as there is in the Sun and the things that are in the Sun. And in the second place lest we should give Essence to the Father but deny Personality to the Others, and make Them only Powers of God, existing in Him and not Personal. For neither the ray nor the light is another sun, but they are only effulgences from the Sun, and qualities of His essence. And lest we should thus, as far as the illustration goes, attribute both Being and Not-being to God, which is even more monstrous... In a word, there is nothing which presents a standing point to my mind in these illustrations from which to consider the Object which I am trying to represent to myself, unless one may indulgently accept one point of the image while rejecting the rest. Finally, then, it seems best to me to let the images and the shadows go, as being deceitful and very far short of the truth; and clinging myself to the more reverent conception, and resting upon few words, using the guidance of the Holy Ghost, keeping to the end as my genuine comrade and companion the enlightenment which I have received from Him, and passing through this world to persuade all others also to the best of my power to worship Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the One Godhead and Power. To Him belongs all glory and honour and might for ever and ever. Amen. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310231.htm
Just like God avoids blame for evil by inventing Satan, the Holy Spirit was invented to take the burden of doing bitch work for God, but it's all just God really.
>>10739 So Satan is sort of like a fourth member of the trinity? I guess that explains why four is considered an unlucky number.
>>10740 Satan is just a created angelic being who used his free will to turn against God. He's as dependent on God as you and me. To say anything more in blasphemous.
>>10739 >>10740 God created satan because he knew sin was inevitable therefore he picked the sequence of events that would play out the best in humanities favor.
>>10494 So the core of the argument I've seen so far, even from Aquinas and Feser is: >Because revelation says so bro. But revelation can be so contradictory and loosely defined that any number of philosophies could be built from scripture. >Ours is right because... I-it just is, okay? While I believe in revelation from God, I think Christian theology can do better than this.
>>10957 >While I believe in revelation from God No you don't.

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