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Iconoclasm Thread Anonymous 01/21/2022 (Fri) 08:34:13 No.3034
Daily reminder that icons and statues in churches are idols and no amount of linguistic pilpuling about ‘veneration’ will change this fact. God is extremely clear in what He commands: >Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them And yet when one goes into an Orthodox Church, this is exactly what one sees. Lines of people going in and bowing before icons of saints and Mary, crossing themselves and kissing the icons. The deacons go about and wave incense before the icons of the saints, Mary and Jesus. The same goes for Catholics. I tried to fall for the so-called ‘apostolic’ church meme for a while, but to see them kiss and worship the images of saints rang major alarm bells in my head, no matter how many copes I read from apologists online. Iconolatry is idolatry, and idolatry will lead you to the hellfire. Protestantism has flaws, but at least ones who are consistent in reading Scripture can realize that nothing but God is due worship and veneration, and that the praying to the saints and Mary is a pagan innovation. Faith in Christ and gathering in His name is enough. Do not be led astray by idol-venerators and other crypto-pagans.
>>5940 I hope you’re circumcised and eating kosher, Shlomo
Where do you guys put your icon(s)? I just got one on Friday and had it blessed during Vespers but I haven’t decided where to put it. The priest said its best in a corner but I don’t really have any good corners. I’ve just been moving it aroung depending where I am spending time in the house—it serves as a good reminder, especially when certain things can draw me close to sinning (Internet)
>>6216 I have one on my computer desk. So that I can look at it and think of God instead of going on bad websites.
>>6216 Not Orthodox so I don't have icons but I keep my prayer stuff (rosary, prayer books etc) on a table in my library. If you don't have a library, you could consider a bedside table, desk or bookshelf.
>>6231 >>6230 Thanks for sharing, anons. I think I've basically combined the best parts of what you guys suggested - I put it for the time being next to my computer desk on a little table, near my bookshelf / library area. So it sits in my sight while also being just in a nice spot in general. I'll be interested to see how this icon effects my spiritual life. I think it definitely gives a different aura to the space I have it in.
>>6254 It's definitely a good place to start, near my PC is where I currently have my patron saint's icon. Eventually, what you might want to consider doing is getting a table, shelf, or wall dedicated specifically to iconography, on the east side of your home (so that you're facing east when looking at them). That becomes your prayer space, where you stand and kneel to do your morning and evening prayers.
>>6389 I definitely hope to get some more stuff in time. I want to take it slow though. Technically I'm still an inquirer who only has been looking into things since like late October, but I definitely will follow this advice in time!
>destroy and disrespect images of Jesus <protties approve >burn american flag <protties angry
>>6747 That's because Americanism is its own heresy. Ever hear of Solange Hertz?
>>6750 No but I have now and thank you for bringing her to my attention.
>>6747 Some subsects of American prots are basically cheerleaders for Zionism and Republicans, it’s sad
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>>7134 If aborted babies go straight to Heaven, then shouldn't we abort more babies so they won't have a chance to go to Hell?
>>7165 Obviously a ludicrous trole, but the logic is sound from a demon's POV (but plainly neither God's nor a human's. Otherwise, why wouldn't He just create everyone 'pre-aborted'?). Obviously God means us all to live our lives. Abortion is clearly a demonically-inspired form of murder, and laid directly at the feet of Feminism & feminists first & foremost. Also, NTA, and I can't be certain of the artist's intent in that painting, but I'm highly-skeptical of the seemingly-common perspective that somehow babies that get aborted get a 'free pass' straight into Heaven. This notion clearly contradicts many passages in Scripture that indicate each and every one of us will make a freewill decision to serve God, or not. I can't pretend to understand what that truth entails for such victims, but I feel quite sure they will face their own trial of faith -- whatever form God chooses that to take. And as to your fundamental fallacy, God is giving everyone a 'chance' to go to Hell. The outcome is purely based on our own choices, He Himself has already made the greatest sacrifice conceivable to prevent us doing so.
>>5930 >But then they say, Make and image of Christ and of his Mother who gave birth to God, and let that suffice. What an absurdity! You confess clearly that you are an enemy of the saints! For if you make an image of Christ, but in no wise of the saints, it is clear that you do not prohibit the image, but rather the honor due to the saints Oh no how dare I honor God and recognize all glory belongs to him rather than honoring men. >, some-thing that no one has ever dared to do or undertake with such brazenness. That is provably false at best and a flat out lie at worst depending on when this was written and the writers knowledge. >You are not waging a war against images, but against the saints. First of all that doesn't logically follow, especially since most Christians who are against idols are against idols of God as well. Secondly worship of idols/icons (same word in the original greek) and the worship of men are both bad, and there is a very long tradition of pious Christians fighting both. >is is said that "God stands in the company of gods, in the midst he dis-criminates between the gods," Wow. Not only are you a pagan you also saying we are as gods. Hi lucifer. >I venerate the image of Christ, as God incarnate; of the mistress of all, the Mother of God So which is it, do you merely "venerate" God or do you worship Mary. >"we are not under the law, but under grace" >unironically saying one or all of the ten commandments no longer apply Go have a gay orgy then because you are no longer under the law. >Peter, the supreme chief of the apostles, Orthobros remain unslighted by this travesty it seems. >we do not mourn for the saints, but we celebrate their death. 32 Then, when Mary had come to where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weep (and also the Judeans who came with her weep), He groaned in the spirit and was troubled in Himself, 34 and said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus wept. How very Christian to celebrate death, when even our Lord wept for a man he would soon revive. >"For the honor given to the image passes to the archetype," Of course that's how it works, why else would God explicitly commanded people not to make images of Him. Also this is pretty much flat out admitting your idolatry. You are "honoring" images to honor what they represent, which is what half the cases of idolatry where. >and anyone who touched a corpse was reckoned unclean, even Moses himself. Now the memorials of the saints are celebrated. Yes, you've made quite a lot of oral traditions over praising parts of corpses, I can't believe catholics are proud of this. >Either, therefore, give up the festal memorials of the saints, which are contrary to the old law, or accept the images Don't worry, we did. :) I pray that you too stop rejecting the word of God.
>>7165 Not unless we want to go to hell for murder ourselves.
>>7202 >Oh no how dare I honor God and recognize all glory belongs to him rather than honoring men. The Bible shows holy men honoring kings, angels and other venerable people. Veneration is right in the Bible. >Secondly worship of idols/icons (same word in the original greek) εἴδωλον =/= εἰκών >and the worship of men are both bad, and there is a very long tradition of pious Christians fighting both. Latria of men is bad, dulia is Biblical. >Not only are you a pagan you also saying we are as gods. Hi lucifer. Calling Psalm 82 Satanic? LMAO >Go have a gay orgy then because you are no longer under the law. Law of Moses =/= moral law. Typical Protestant conflation. >Orthobros remain unslighted by this travesty it seems. The Orthodox Church recognizes the primacy of Peter but doesn't ascribe to papal supremacism. This statement doesn't perturb Orthos at all. >How very Christian to celebrate death, when even our Lord wept for a man he would soon revive. Celebrating that they have reposed in Christ is nothing bad. Did he say that we can shed no tears? >. You are "honoring" images to honor what they represent, which is what half the cases of idolatry where. Idolatry is worshiping an image as a god or believing that a god dwells within the image. This isn't what iconography is. >Yes, you've made quite a lot of oral traditions over praising parts of corpses, This comes straight from the miracles that were worked from Elisha's bones, bringing a man back to life with the power of God that worked through them. Even the bones of Polycarp, a disciple of John, were collected by his followers. It's both in the Bible and Holy Tradition.
Hey, Mister New Iconoclast, expound on why you believe that here so we can understand you.
>>7913 Who are you talking to?
>>7915 The guy from >>7908 , who else?
>>7916 What specifically are you asking me?
I'm being entered as a catechumen on Saturday, thanks for the help, anons.
>>7918 Congratulations, brother anon. Do tell us how things go. >>7917 I am asking you what sort of church(es) you attend, which sect you belong to, and how you reached them, so that I have a frame of reference for why you think it a good idea to destroy images of the God-Man Jesus Christ. One doesn't simply "read the Bible" and reach a single conclusion. By one's own wits, one can reach any number of them, from Seventh Day Adventist to Swedenborgianism. So tell me how you reached this particular conclusion.
>>7947 >By one's own wits, one can reach any number of them, from Seventh Day Adventist to Swedenborgianism. In your opinion which specific texts of scripture can be reasonably ascertained to genuinely teach these heresies?
>>7947 >Congratulations, brother anon. Do tell us how things go. Thanks, I'll be sure to! I'm a bit nervous
>>7949 Answer my question first. You are the unknown, while you think you know us. The OP answered honestly, and now I ask the same of you. It is only fair.
>>7979 Your "question" was a rhetorical attack on the holy bible.
>>7990 How? You deflect.
>>7998 >How? >>7947 >One doesn't simply "read the Bible" and reach a single conclusion. By one's own wits, one can reach any number of them, from Seventh Day Adventist to Swedenborgianism.
>>8000 Anon, the Bible is not and never has been something to be read without help. It requires understanding of context (which tradition usually provides), meaning (which can and often is misinterpreted), and a humble mindset (lacking in so many "Enlightenment" scholars). It is no insult to the Bible to call it a difficult book which not all are ready or capable of taking in fully. As for those specific heresies, that would require an in-depth examination which I do not have resources for at present. However, let me ask you something: why is it that so many splinters of the Reformation broadly if not specifically resemble the ancient heresies, which were each the result of individual heresiarchs' interpretations?
>>8001 >which tradition usually provides Lol. >It is no insult to the Bible to call it a difficult book which not all are ready or capable of taking in fully. Do you need help from tradition or your church to understand my words? >why is it that so many splinters of the Reformation Why is it that papists are so delusional they believe that everything that isn't part of their church has something to do with the Reformation?
>let me ask you something: why is it that so many splinters of the Reformation broadly if not specifically resemble the ancient heresies, which were each the result of individual heresiarchs' interpretations? Because the concerns of many ancient heresiarchs were never meaningfully addressed and persist unanswered
>>8017 >not meaningfully addressed >unanswered <what were the Ecumenical Councils <who were the Desert Fathers
>>8019 Not meaningful answers nor divinely inspired.
As even Martin Luther put it, Christian artistic works are "sermons for the eyes." Anyone can "read" them, no matter their own language. Perhaps iconoclasm returns in part because of the presumptive arrogance of an over-literate but meaningless society.
Do you hate saints? Do you envy them? Do you think they must not be given any recognition nor communicated with nor prayed to? Is their help when THEY pray for YOU to GOD on YOUR behalf worthless? There is no love in you. God does not know you. Honest and kind people on Heaven do not know you. No one knows you.
Everyone who dared to usurp authority of Pope was enemy of Pope, no matter how saintly they were. Our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, friends and advocates on Heaven, all of them had to SCRAM because Pope and Church said so. Don't get in their ways of gaining more POWER over kingdoms and states, or you will be punished and eradicated as heretics. That's what, at it's very root, iconoclasm was all about - being part of dogmatic power centralization. And, like pharisee, people in the church no longer cared about communion, but more about word and law, and callousness and pride grew in their hearts even as they defeated lust and gluttony.
>>8258 I am a saint sir, as is everyone who believes and the dead will not hear your prayers, instead your worship goes to the demons.
>>8261 Young man. I know people earn pocket money the way they can. Some sit and solve captchas like possessed, some shill on online websites like you do, but does your minuscule pay really worth your time? Maybe you should abandon this and get a little more proper job, idk, at a restaurant or a delivery service. It will be better for you. And if you JUST tell God about your needs, believe me, he WILL help you too. NO strings attached, NO obligations, FOR FREE. Even if you hate Him or the very concept of His existence. Trust this, He knows you more than you know your own five fingers. And one day you will meet him too.
>>8261 The Christian faith is indeed for the living -- including those who have passed on, but are alive together with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. Or do you think such a heresy as to deny Christ's meeting with the Prophets from the very Gospel? Do you ignore the meaning of the torn cloth in the Temple and the rising dead? Do you also ignore Lazarus? Selectively ignoring Scripture does nothing for your case.
>>8271 Their souls are alive and their bodies are dead. You could no more contact them than the damned in Hell. Repent of your necromancy and repent of your idolatry, the Lord will not tolerate it.
>>8310 A thousand stories old and new, a thousand gallons of relic-generated oil, and a thousand miracles bespeak your continued ignorance of history. History and a life helped and guided by a thousand-thousand helpers under our Father's command. All you have to do is humbly ask, like Matin Luther did St. Anne during a terrible storm, and you might just be surprised. Demons demand sacrifice and evil as their payment, the Saints and Martyrs merely ask for a contrite heart. Go get your hands on a book called Evlogeite! , all who can afford to. It will demonstrate to you the rich and salutary history of Greek Saints, Martyrs, and Elders from the earliest days of the Church into the present. They are all alive in Christ, and are yet active in helping those who avail themselves of them. >bodies are dead In conclusion, so what? Those worthy enough to become Saints and achieve Theosis are not bound by that at all. Besides, come the Last Judgement, all dem bones are going to be clothed once more.
>>8310 The saints are as alive as you and me. Imagine thinking the Body of Christ is broken by death.
>>8320 >A thousand stories old and new, a thousand gallons of relic-generated oil, and a thousand miracles bespeak your continued ignorance of history We see now how the fall of Rome and Constantinople was caused by them ignoring the warnings of scripture and listening to whispers in the shadows like the older heathens did. For God knew that the devils would seek to destroy our faith through false miracles, and knowing the weakness of men for superstition we were warned "believe not every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God". We know that no spirit from God would lead men into idolatry and encourage worship of themselves, and no spirit from God would come in the guise of dead saints telling the people to cast spells of necromancy, for God said "thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "a man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death". >All you have to do is humbly ask, like Matin Luther did St. Anne during a terrible storm I swear to you that no false god will save you, but "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". That Luther's first thought was to beseech another god and offer himself to her betrays his paganism at that time, and the paganism of Rome and Constantinople down to this very day, so they must not be considered Christian churches in any way. It is the most accursed thing to give worship to the creation rather than the creator, it is the most damnable thing there is. >Those worthy enough to become Saints I am a saint sir, as are all who repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I encourage you to give up your idols and become a saint too. >are not bound by that at all They are bound to it as God as has bound them to it. >>8342 Imagine thinking you can talk to the dead.
>>8392 >all of that Thank you. I think I can finally tell what family of heresies you belong to, even if you didn't intend to tell me. This would've been a lot less tedious if you'd simply answered when I asked some days ago. So no, anon, I don't need two thousand years of tradition to figure you out, just a decent grasp of history and the lingo you thought was your own. But we'll get into that in the coming week. I am on a phone, and today is Palm Sunday. A blessed day to you.
>>8404 Cringe
>>8449 Okay, zoomer.
iconic bump
>>3039 https://anon.cafe/christian/res/10837.html Iconoclasm debunked biblically. -Biblical events symbolize/image other things The incarnated Son of God is an image/icon of the Divine. >Colossians 1:15: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. >John 12:45: "And whoever sees me sees him who sent me." The old covenent is an image of the new covenent >Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. " Messianic prophecies through images (many examples but I will give one, joseph is an image of Christ) >Joseph was rejected by his family, was put in the earth, was accepted by gentiles, was exalted among gentiles, saved the entire world during the famine >Christ was rejected by Israelites, was accepted by gentiles, was put in the earth, was exalted, saved humanity by destroying death -Man made material images in place of worship Cherubim icons in place of worship >Exodus 26:1: “Moreover, you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen and blue and purple and scarlet yarns; you shall make them with cherubim skillfully worked into them." Joshua and Israelites bow down before two massive Cherubim icons. >Exodus 25:22: There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel. >Joshua 7:6: Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the Lord until the evening, he and the elders of Israel. And they put dust on their heads. -Divine effects from interacting with man made objects out of faith and obedience to God, not the object itself. Looking at a symbolic man made bronze serpent heals you >Numbers 21:8-9: And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. Sick woman desperately tries to touch the garment of Christ, not out of faith for the garment, but out of faith in Christ. >Luke 8:44: "She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. "
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