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Deliverance after death? Anonymous 01/13/2022 (Thu) 09:49:44 No.2825
It's generally understood that there can be no deliverance after death. Yet traditional Christianity has long upheld the doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell, that Jesus descended into Hell during His death to deliver the Old Testament righteous as they could not save themselves being under the weight of original sin. So it seems that there was a special case in which this applied. There is also the ancient tradition of prayers for the death. Now, without consideration of Roman Catholic dogmas of purgatory, was this a one-time event? That is, that Christ no longer harrows Hell, and those that die in ignorance of the gospel, for example, following His death and resurrection are condemned to eternal damnation? Or, being that Heaven and Hell are timeless, did in the Harrowing Jesus bring up all the men and women throughout history worthy of deliverance as per His judgement, and not just the spirits of those that died prior to His crucifixion?
>>6388 Anywhere in the Bible that talks about unquenchable fire or people rising to everlasting contempt. >parables arent literal They convey spiritual truths, and of them is eternal punishment.
>>6396 >Anywhere in the Bible that talks about unquenchable fire or people rising to everlasting contempt. ill have to look into that >They convey spiritual truths, and of them is eternal punishment. i dont remember the rich mans punishment being eternal and once again we would have to consider the meaning of the parable. The purpose of the parable was to convey that if you disobeyed Gods orders that you would be punished
>>6401 Daniel 12:2 is one place to look, as is Matthew 25:46. There are many more as well. The one in Matthew is particularly worth noting, because many arguments surrounding the limited nature of hell are based on the term αἰώνιος which is used to qualify the nature of the punishment. The term means 'eternal', but supporters of limited hell will say that it means merely 'for an age'. Why the verse of Matthew 25:46 is interesting is because it uses αἰώνιος in two contexts, to talk of eternal life and eternal punishment. To say that one implies actual eternal life and the other just 'limited' hell is to equivocate on the meaning of the term used, and is a bad-reading of the text, needless to say. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is also a good one, which says that the damned will face 'the punishment of eternal destruction'. There is a very good reason why those who preach limited hell are heretics condemned at multiple ecumenical councils.
>>6402 all the verses with the exception of Daniel 12:2 refer to some kind of eternal (as in permanent) punishment or death. Daniel 12 is the only one that alludes to something else, the interesting thing about Daniel 12 tho is its context, its discussing the coming of Christ and Him dying for our sins. The righteous residing in Abrahams Bosom aswell as those who accept Christ while in sheoul presumably are granted eternal life/brought into Heaven whereas the unbelievers are left to regret their disbelief. The interesting thing to note is the meaning of the word "עוֹלָם" which can either mean antiquity, futurity, or long duration. Considering how seemingly misplaced this verse appears to be, it is my guess that the word "עוֹלָם" has two different meanings here.
>>6387 >Condemned by Scripture Nope. >three ecumenical Church councils Who rejected Jesus, was it the learned priests or the laymen?
>>6396 >Anywhere in the Bible that talks about unquenchable fire or people rising to everlasting contempt. Unquenchable fire as in you can't put it out. aeon ton aeon doesn't mean everlasting, it means for the ages of the ages.
>>6402 >Matthew 25:46 is interesting is because it uses αἰώνιος in two contexts, to talk of eternal life and eternal punishment. Also in Matthew Christ says let the dead bury the dead, the first is the figurative dead and the second literal. The Gospel According to Matthew is no stranger to using the same word to refer to different things in a sentance.
>>6423 people seem to forget the symbolism of fire. what does fire do? it destroys. When you throw a piece of paper into a flame it gets burnt to ashes, it doesnt just sit there and cook. if God really intended for humans to suffer in hell for eternity then you think He would have gave a better analogy or just said it outright.
>>6402 >'the punishment of eternal destruction' Reread the passage and tell me how you got eternal torture out of that. You are destroyed for eternity, also known as you are dead for eternity. It is saying God will not raise you again.
>>6424 aswell the word eternal means "forever" "infinite", ie infinite death and infinite life.
>>6425 Thank you, that is well put.
>>6421 Perhaps that is to harsh a comparison, but the point still stands not to put your tradition and the wisdom of men above the Word of God
>>6421 The Church never rejected Jesus. It merely reaffirmed what is clearly said in Scripture, that the torments of hell are eternal. Anything else is anathematized heresy. >aeon ton aeon doesn't mean everlasting, it means for the ages of the ages. Nigh blasphemous statement given how the phrase 'unto the ages of ages' is used in the Bible and in liturgical contexts today. >>6425 You're viewing the fires of hell too literally. This is not the Orthodox understanding of hell. >>6426 You're preaching more false doctrine now in saying that some people will not even be raised. This is literally the opposite of what Scripture says. The passage says what it says, it says that the damned will be eternally punished and have cut themselves off from the presence of God. >>6424 Scripture is to be read holistically. There are numerous other passages which say that the torments of hell are everlasting, and therefore we have no grounds to say that Jesus speaks equivocally in Matthew 25:46.
>>6476 >You're viewing the fires of hell too literally. This is not the Orthodox understanding of hell. the "fires of hell" are symbolic, if a torturous hell did exist it would likely just be a black void.
>>6491 People in hell will just be tormented by their own inability to participate in God. They bring it upon themselves.
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orthodox shill
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Now that the dust has settled, has death been irrevocably btfo or can he still get back in the game?
>>3254 Because we love our children and our society, we throw child molesters and murderers in prison.
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Didn't find a suitable thread for this, but... Doesn't Old Testament sometimes imply that there is no afterlife (because after death you turn into dust). But some Old Testament passages imply that there is afterlife and hell. Pharisees believed in resurrection but Sadducees didn't believe in afterlife. The New Testament and all Christians do believe in heaven and hell.
>>11693 I think that under the Old Testament, everyone who died went to Hell without exception. And if Hell is your only possibility then there may as well be no afterlife at all since Hell is just the death of the soul. I think I know what your next question will be so to clarify, that doesn't mean that everyone who died before Jesus did is still burning in Hell, when Christ was crucified He freed all of the righteous souls from Hell so your ancient ancestors from thousands of years ago might be waiting to meet you in Heaven.
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>>2825 It's a theological opinion but not doctrine in catholicism and orthodoxy that people can be redeemed after death (universalism), but since we don't know for sure we should live as if it wasn't true, that we don't have another hope except while on earth
The bible tells us that there is no other name by which we may be saved than Jesus, and that every knee should bend to the name of Jesus. You answered your own question when you noted that those whom He saved were the "Old Testament righteous", that is, those who believed. When the first man was cursed for his sin he was thereafter blessed because he believed the promise "He shall crush your head and you shall bruise His heel" and he was clothed in the freshly killed flesh of beasts to ward off the cold and save him from the consequences of his sin. The only means by which anyone has ever stood before God has been the righteousness of Jesus Christ because He is the way, the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father except by Him. Under the old covenant they shared the same faith as us as they lived by the promise of He who was to come, they were not unbelievers who worshipped false gods (all who do so are cursed) and they did not dwell in a place of punishment, they were in to a part of hell which was without fire where they rescued and brought to paradise by the Lord in whom they had believed their whole lives. The unbelievers who are ignorant of His gospel are not absolved thereby, but are condemned because even though they know God they do not glorify Him as God nor are they thankful but they exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for images of corruptible men and beasts and birds and creeping things.
>>15813 >because even though they know God But they don't know God, that's the problem. They know sin but they don't know God and His salvation, because if they did know they would desire it. That's enough to condemn them, sure, but there are grounds for compassion for them because no one deserves salvation on their own merit. So they will be judged a harsh judgement unless there is divine intervention, and face a wrath that no person should wish to face.
>>15816 >But they don't know God They absolutely know God, of course they do. His eternal attributes have been clearly perceived from the foundation of the world in the things that have been made. They are without excuse for their denial of and rebellion against the obvious reality of the world that there is but one God who created all things. >if they did know they would desire it I'm sorry but that is flatly unbiblical. The gospel is not the power of God unto salvation to those who are perishing, to them it is foolishness, a stumbling block, and the stench of death. Children of wrath do not receive the truth of God with faith because they are consumed with hatred for Him, when He walked among them they did not desire the truth He spoke to them instead they plotted among themselves how they might kill Him. A man who has not been raised to spiritual life by the powerful grace of the Holy Spirit is so opposed to his creator that should he spend eons burning in the lake of fire and then be offered release by God for nothing more than a moment of repentance his response would be to spit in His face. >there are grounds for compassion The ground for compassion is that our Lord commanded us to preach His gospel to every nation.
>>15827 >You assert even though it defies living experience and the Bible. For Paul says that the Gentiles do not have the law, but yet have the law written in their hearts One who studies the scripture by reading it could not have missed my constant quotation as you have from the first chapter of the same epistle. What you have quoted here is a condemnation not of the gentiles but of the Jews, built on the foundation of the gentiles' condemnation in that "even though they knew God they glorified Him not as God". Subsequently after demonstrating the wickedness of the gentiles Paul turns on the Jews who would have been encouraging him, condemning them for their hypocrisy in doing the same things which they condemn, as when he reaches his conclusion he comments on the previous passages that "we have already alleged that all, both Jew and gentile, are under sin". The second chapter must therefore be read as a condemnation of the Jews and their presumption. Now the writing of the law upon the heart was a covenantal promise, in the Old Testament God promised that under the new covenant He would write His law upon the hearts of His people so that they no longer needed to be led by the written code but they would all be taught of God. Hence Paul is invoking that scripture and applying it not to the wicked pagans who worship false gods but to the Christian gentiles who are full partakers in the selfsame covenant as Abraham, since it is founded by the same Lord on the same terms. >If God chose to release that man he would have no capacity to defy Him, because God's doing it would be in accordance with His wisdom and desire which is the same across all time. It is vain to speculate outside of and loosed from the teachings of the scriptures (which are God speaking to us). In His word He has already declared "it is appointed to man but once to die and after this the judgement".
>>15818 >They absolutely know God, of course they do. After reviewing Romans 1, which you were citing, I concede this point as my fault. As I received your response in the middle of reconsidering my position, I will be reposting the relevant contents of the post deleted: (I attempted a grounding of my position on a misconception over the Gentile's knowledge of the law versus their knowledge of God on the basis of Romans 2:14-15, but it proved to be a folly that bypassed the exhortation of Paul in Romans 1) >A man who has not been raised to spiritual life by the powerful grace of the Holy Spirit is so opposed to his creator that should he spend eons burning in the lake of fire and then be offered release by God for nothing more than a moment of repentance his response would be to spit in His face. Yes and God does that raising. Are you saying that God's predestination overrides His own sovereign will? If God chose to release that man he would have no capacity to defy Him, because God's doing it would be in accordance with His wisdom and desire which is the same across all time. >Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. Luke 7:47 The one released would be utterly defeated by God's manifest mercy. *In addition to this, by the gospels and Acts we know that the Holy Spirit did not descend on the disciples until Pentecost, yet in Luke 23:43 Christ says to the penitent thief: >And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. The thief surely died before Pentecost as attested in the gospels, yet without the Spirit he was delivered by the mercy of Christ to salvation. >The ground for compassion is that our Lord commanded us to preach His gospel to every nation. No disagreement there. >>15829 >It is vain to speculate outside of and loosed from the teachings of the scriptures (which are God speaking to us). Yes, if we disregarded this we would be papists. There is no Purgatory. >In His word He has already declared "it is appointed to man but once to die and after this the judgement". And is it not a judgement? That divides the righteous from the wicked in accordance to His good pleasure? In judgement He both delivers and condemns as Lord, and it is His ultimate sentencing, which none may second-guess. Is this not a faithful testimony, and our hope in Christ Jesus?
>>15831 If you see fault in my closing statement please enlighten it in good faith. Note that I am not making the heretical argument that all will be saved, but that judgement towards life or towards damnation is God's prerogative.
>>15834 The error is that it is inconsistent with the testimony of the scriptures. We are told how men are saved and what happens after death. The statement in Hebrews clearly indicates that this judgement occurs immediately after death, there is no intermediary period in which they might repent but their soul is immediately carried to the throne of Christ with their fate already locked in. The many warnings to the unbeliever and promises to the believer throughout the bible are given with a clear intent that the reader understand that if they come before the throne without having already believed on His name they will be cast into the pit. To make a point about the text *not* saying that they won't repent after the fact has more in common with the speculative theology of the medieval scholastics than a proper treatment of the scriptures.
>>15838 I'm not making the OP argument about the soul repenting after death, because like you said that would be more medieval scholastic speculation than biblical theology. However to lay out what is valid: >an individual has to believe in Jesus as saviour and repent in order to be saved >someone who dies without having believed is incapable of doing so, and is delivered to judgement in the state in which they died >this soul is manifestly set towards destruction, it is impossible to redeem the one who is an unrepentant sinner nor would it be desirable as they are in categorical opposition to God >ergo, lake of fire >if they come before the throne without having already believed on His name they will be cast into the pit While I see the logic of the above, did you have the quotations that substantiate it as well?
>>15841 In connection to this, what do you hold to be the fate of infants who tragically die before the age of majority? Are they damned? Is there a difference between the children of believers and non-believers? Are the children of the non-believing damned in sin?
>>15846 And there's a third category I came across which is pertinent, the fate of the mentally retarded.
>>15838 I'd like to say in spite of the posts disputing your position I am coming around to it, but I would like to hear your reply before we come to terms.
>>15841 I don't know what you're asking me for
>>15886 I found what I was looking for: >I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins John 8:24 Those that do not believe will die in their sins, which condemns them at the judgement, for which the sentence is the lake of fire. And my previous two posts were giving too much consideration to the role of human free will in faith and repentance. Faith is a gift from God as per Ephesians 2:8, and of course God can command infants and the mentally retarded to saving faith without regard for their natural capacity, as John the Baptist demonstrates in acknowledging Mary and the conception of Christ in Luke 1:41. On the justice of the whole situation, as some would question God's condemnation of so much of man, the answer can be reasoned out. The last judgement is the final separation of what is ungodly from what is godly, that what is godly has no confusion with what is ungodly in the manner of 2 Corinthians 6:14. There is nothing to be redeemed of nor desired from what is ungodly, it has no part in eternal life. Christ spoke of how necessary it is to cling to Him, even forsaking family ties (Matthew 10:37), if one seeks the kingdom of heaven. The judgement is God's sovereign right as creator per Romans 9:21-23. It's an impersonal decision; that which will be put in the lake of fire was due for the lake of fire, and that which is destined for life was due for life. In eternity there is finality, which is why speculations on redemption in the life beyond are vain, as it denies this dichotnomy between what is temporal and earthly and what is divine. And this becomes the strongest basis for Christian missionary zeal, witness, and ministry. For while a person is yet alive there is that hope, no matter how small it may seem, that they can be redeemed. As James 5:20 says, "let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins," but every dead sinner's doom is certain as testified in John 8:24 in the opening. God earnestly desires that as many be saved as possible (for as much shall be redeemed in Him), even as the Lord said, "there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth" (Luke 9:10). For those who forsake this evangelistic duty, as the Parable of the Talents illustrates, the Lord will command to "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30), because if one fails to share the gift of salvation from perdition with others, it demonstrates how little regard that person holds for the Lord's divine passion and project. Every soul in the lake of fire is a casualty of the plague of sin. Thus Christians are elected, and are commissioned into service by the Spirit, as the church militant to fight the good fight, the last fight, and the necessary fight, for the cure of souls: >Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19-20, which is the end of the gospel. I would hope that this somewhat corresponds with your views, brother?
>>15995 >I would hope that this somewhat corresponds with your views, brother? The way I would put it when you talked about life and the lake of fire that those whom were destined for the lake will be put there but some of those who were due for the lake will be delivered to life. While when preaching the gospel the repentance of new brothers is cause for rejoicing I feel the greatest basis of missionary zeal is that which Jesus cited, since He did not say "Go" but "Therefore go", the basis being "All authority has been given me in heaven and earth". That is, the great commission is not a command for us to go preach the gospel to people, but for the world to be baptized because He now commands all men everywhere to repent. When we go we serve as the King's heralds bearing His decree and ultimatum to His rebellious subjects.
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>>16013 I've been meaning to follow up on this discussion with Reformed poster for some weeks but previously did not have the chance, but there were some things I wanted to comment on to refine my understanding: >but some of those who were due for the lake will be delivered to life The default position of man without God, under original sin, is to end up in the lake of fire isn't it? I'm not trying to take a contrary position here, but I felt that the wording of "those who were due for the lake" suggests that only a particular group is heading for the lake, rather than humanity by nature without the grace of God. >When we go we serve as the King's heralds bearing His decree and ultimatum to His rebellious subjects. I think this is an interesting way of putting it in light of the previous statement, >but "Therefore go", the basis being "All authority has been given me in heaven and earth". That is, the great commission is not a command for us to go preach the gospel to people, but for the world to be baptized because He now commands all men everywhere to repent. For we know that the Lord knows what the fate of men will be, who will accept Him and who will reject Him, so when we preach the gospel as a decree and ultimatum, God knows which of His subjects will submit and which will continue in their rebellion, thus it is almost as a sentence in how they respond to it. Lastly in Mark 16:15-16, He does command us to preach the gospel for the sake of salvation: >And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
>>17849 >for the sake of salvation* *that is, for the salvation of others
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>>2825 https://otelders.org/en/theology-and-spirituality/the-lord-pulled-his-father-out-of-hell-a-vision-of-elder-ephraim-of-arizona/?amp=1 This is a very interesting subject. Some believe the only reason that someone cannot leave hell is because, since they will be in great pain, they cannot truly repent; they will just repent to leave the fire. It seems as though, with great prayer, we can appeal to God's mercy and save souls from hell. I am not a theologian so I am hesitant to adopt this thought immediately.
>>2825 Purgatory comes from the Council of Lyons in 1254, before the Protestant split from the Christian Church. I'm wondering how that works... do the Protestants recognize a time when the Christian Church was true, or do they believe that there was no Christian Church until Martin Luther fetched his future wife out of the Nunnery in a Pickle barrel and they broke all their vows before God?
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That's not what the Church taught; The faithful before Christ went to limbo, the highest level of "hell" (outside heaven) and lead the faithful to heaven when they were redeemed by the sacrifice of the Lord. Some say that the souls God wishes to save are the souls who are taught the gospels and in this life are lead to the faith. I am just a small soul, how God works is not known to me I just follow what he says like a child and don't ask too many question.
Those people in limbo were saved. God exist outside our world and outside our Time. Christ went to limbo to judge and lead the righteous to heaven as they were judged by Jesus Christ for their life on earth. Once you're dead it's over. That's what you lived. Reminder that the Orthodox also pray for the dead, as did the other early Christians. https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/prayer-for-the-dead/ It's only "reformist" who reject this teaching of the early church.
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>>2825 Why can't people just read the Bible and see what it says about the state of the dead? I'm done spoonfeeding you retards since you hate the scripture anyway and if I posted any you'd just start your mental gymnastics to defend your denominational doctrines. Even posting this screencap is more than you scoffing faggot LARPers are worth.
>>2825 >Now, without consideration of Roman Catholic dogmas of purgatory, I don't see how one can Reject the Early Church and then wonder why it doesn't make sense.
>>21380 also christlarpers: >NOOOOO YOU HAVE TO GO TO HECKIN HELL IF YOU SURVIVED UNWARRANTED SOCIAL OSTRACISM AND DECIDED TO NEET AS A RESULT REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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