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the "problem" of free will Anonymous 04/29/2020 (Wed) 03:35:18 No.21
i say problem in the sense that it is a common argument i hear from normalfags in trying to spread the gospel. the argument is generally > God is omnipotent > omnipotence implies foreknowledge of all events > free will is your ability to choose otherwise >therefore, your decisions cannot be free as you can only choose what God has already foreseen.
I'm sorry, this is probably the wrong answer but, Whenever I see someone try to act smart like this and he's above +18, my head starts churning. Seeing nonarguments like these I just start imagining the person is too prideful to even consider God and move on. Dunno if pic related is relevant since I don't know what arguments the blue girl is making but posting it anyways.
>>22 oh of course, i have no intention of trying to win over the debating opponent in most cases. he is merely the foil by which i can spread the word to lurkers. i only do this in publicly readible places, you see. i am curious by what you mean by nonargument though, as in the form i have given it it is coherent. sorry the op is so bad, i made it as a distraction from working on homework that is rapidly approaching a deadline i will likely be unable to meet and am panicking a little bit.
>>23 >i am curious by what you mean by nonargument though, as in the form i have given it it is coherent. Oh, its a odd explanation. I saw your OP post, and it made me remember some recent arguments I had with people and I replied to that instead of the greentext.
I'm having a hard time articulating exactly what the main issue with this argument is. It's got that "It's so wrong it's not even incorrect" flavor to it that makes addressing it difficult in a weird way. The root, I think, is that the people who make these kinds of objections is that their concept of God, particularly God as we Christians know him, comes from cultural osmosis rather than from an actual study of how God presents Himself to us in the scriptures. Of course not every unbeliever, or really any unbeliever should be expected to be biblically literate but because of the place Christianity has in the culture and history of western civilization people make all kinds of assumptions about what they "know" Christians believe or what they "know" is in the bible and the creates it's own unique problem when trying to deal with surface level arguments like these. It doesn't help that the major branches of the faith actually differ on the extant of how free man's will actually is. Being staunchly Reformed in my theology I would say that our will isn't free. This doesn't mean we are robots doing as we were programmed only that we are not entirely autonomous. The only being whose will actually is completely and totally free is God because being uncreated and self-existent the freedom of His will sets the maximum amount that any will can be - that is God cannot create a will freer than His own and no will can be as free as His since all other wills being made by Him, no matter how free, are at their foundation dependent on His will to even exist. Biblical prophecy is incoherent if our wills are completely free because events in history occur as a result of countless decisions, emotions, actions and reactions on the parts of millions upon millions of people. If God knows the future, indeed if what the scriptures say is true and God established the beginning and set it apart from the future and ordered time according to His purposes than none of our wills in History can overthrow what God has ordained. And yet, as we see in the case of Joseph when his brothers sell him into bondage, after they go into Egypt to seek aid during a famine, Joseph remarks to his brothers that though what they had intended in their hearts was evil, what God intended to accomplish through their actions was good so the will of man is free to depart from the will of God in it's intentions it nevertheless leads man to accomplish the will of God anyway. We can go further into this and look in Pauls epistles where he describes how we are dead and in bondage to sin and our wills are to do evil so long as we are in Adam and only after we are in Christ we are able to do what is pleasing to God. So there is a degree to which our wills are free but only in as much as they are bound to obey our sinful natures and can never be so free as to interfere in the freedom of God's will.
>>29 >and no will can be as free as His since all other wills being made by Him, no matter how free, are at their foundation dependent on His will to even exist. Counterpoint, once God has promised us something unconditionally(For example, Free Will) it is trustworthy and absolute, ergo our free will is free as his. I'm skipping over the bondage to sin thing here of course, but that's a difficult matter in itself.
>>30 When did God promise us free will?
I always get the idea God just left us to do something else after the whole Jesus thing. I mean, would you continue playing a Sims game if all the NPCs suddenly screwed over the Sim that's supposed to resemble you? Or would you mess with them and do things like removing pool ladders or letting an unskilled cook use an unsafe furnace before getting bored and uninstalling the game?
>>57 The greatest trick God ever pulled was convincing the devil that He had been murdered. Christ's life was not taken but was given up specifically for the purpose of acting as a propitiatory sacrifice for those who would have faith in Him. The wages of sin being death and all of mankind being born in sin and living sinful lives our just and rightful end was to die, not just physical death but the death of the soul in eternal anguish under the wrath of God. God being loving and merciful and desirous of keeping a remnant of humanity for Himself to demonstrate His grace and long-suffering for us however, from the very beginning, planned to inflict Himself with our punishment by living a perfect and sinless human life in our place and dieing a sinners death in our place so that any who would call on Him for mercy and a forgiveness of their sins would be able to have life under the righteousness of Christ. We very well would play the part of a vengeful and petty god against NPC's, that is why in all the pagan religions their false gods behave likewise. The true God however is not petty and vengeful but loves justice and mercy alike and arranged and orchestrated all of human history to be a demonstration of selfless and primeval love and bears the burdens of our iniquities in our place if we just ask Him to do so.
>>59 > not petty and vengeful But he is jealous. Apparently jealously is a trait all gods have.
>>60 >Jealous Prove what you said but without using a particular spot in the translation which was a mistake.
>>60 Jealousy is not an inherently negative quality. It is normal and natural for a husband to be jealous for his wife's affections. In fact if a woman acts in a way to entice his jealousy everyone can recognize she's the one in the wrong not the husband who is upset at his wife being flirtatious with other men. God's relationship with His people is consistently framed in terms of marriage, in the old testament when Israel follows other gods Israel is referred to as being an adulterous nation, n the new testament the church is referred to as the bride of Christ and when discussing marriage itself the relationship between a husband and wife is explicitly directed to mirror the relationship between Christ and the church. That's the context that the bible couches God's jealousy in, it's his love and desire to keep His people for Himself. God isn't jealous for things or objects but for the adoration of those He loved unconditionally to the point of death on the cross.
>>62 God sounds pretty freaking yandere. I get he wants us for himself but giving me cancer out of nowhere is a bit much.
>>62 >God isn't jealous for things or objects but for the adoration of those He loved unconditionally to the point of death on the cross. That's arguably worse, especially because I'm getting the feeling God has Borderline Personality Disorder as well. He's like a jealous overbearing parent/partner who snaps at the slightest imagined mistake.
>>67 >>68 Believe as you see fit. God does not need me to defend Him, he will defend His own honor on the day of judgement. I urge you to repent and believe before your time is up so as not to fall into His hands as a rebel against His cosmic law rather than as a sinner pleading for his mercy, which he gives expediently to those who seek it.
>>69 Listen bro, I believe in God but He has a lot of defending and explaining to do Himself. I don't care about that cliché'd old ranting about repenting, love is supposed to be a two-way street supported by clear communication between the two parties. What kind of Stockholm syndrome do you need to have when you endure all that suffering but you still believe He's without faults? If anything I've got some design improvement ideas for Him after he wiped us all out and tries again.
>>70 >but He has a lot of defending and explaining to do Himself Then you do not truly believe in Him, but in the Sugar Free, Socialist, Post-Modern version of God. God is PERFECTION. Philosophically speaking, He is above mortal comprehension and era based moralities. No matter the religion, you're going to find that this is the way He does business. In Modern Christianity we just accept He has a much more hands-off approach to things.
>>71 Perfection is a joke, anyone who actually has a job can tell you that.
>>70 >Listen bro, I believe in God but He has a lot of defending and explaining to do Himself. What makes you think you're even in a position to even understand what the world from God's perspective even looks like? None of us even knows what our neighbors do behind closed doors. We barely even know the details of our own lives and yet you think such creatures as us are able to even stand in a position to demand God defend Himself? We are the sinners who must justify our lives to God, explain to Him why we have been liars, why we have hated and gritted our teeth and deceived and murdered and raped and committed atrocity after atrocity against one another, generation after generation and did so happily and with gladness in our hearts to do so. > I don't care about that cliché'd old ranting about repenting, Repentance is the heart of the gospel. If you are too prideful to humble yourself before God and recognize that you are in need of His forgiveness then you do not know Christ or have any idea why He had to go to the cross on our behalf. > love is supposed to be a two-way street supported by clear communication between the two parties. Where do you get your idea of what love is or isn't? Is it your own invention? Are you using the prevailing idea of love that you find in your culture? Or do you derive your notion of what love really means from the God who framed the universe and who invented the very concept of love in eternity past. You have your cart in front of your horse, God sets the standard and what is true and right is defined by consistency with that standard. You would not even have the capacity to conceptualize the idea of love if it were not in God's purpose to allow humans to express and know love. to think that you then have a greater understanding of what love is than that God who invented love and supplied our capacity to know it then you are a fundamentally irrational person. > What kind of Stockholm syndrome do you need to have when you endure all that suffering but you still believe He's without faults? Because I have spent some time to search my own heart, to understand my own motivations with the decisions I've made and actions I've done in my life and I know that I am a sinner, I am evil, fundamentally there is a part of me that is broken, always has been broken and until the resurrection to come always will be broken and I have no excuse to give to justify myself in front of the High Judge of all of space and time. I have no evidence to bring forth to excuse my thoughts and deeds, I have no clever arguments that makes the things I've done or desired good. I am without excuse and I need God to have unconditional mercy on me or I will be justly and rightly condemned to hell. If you do not see that the same is true for you then your pride is getting in the way of you seeing how bad things really are. > If anything I've got some design improvement ideas for Him after he wiped us all out and tries again. And this line confirms that thought. Humble yourself, repent and have faith.
weird
i'd suggest you look into Molinism or any number of theologies similar to it which posit a coexistence of "human will" and "God's foreknowledge" I know at least from talking to a friend (who is considerably more Reformed than me) that believes in a "coexistence" of will and foreknowledge. But i'd have to go ask him again what exactly he believes, it's been a while.
>>73 I like you Anon. You seem to have a good grasp on real faith.

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