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Anonymous 11/20/2021 (Sat) 17:08:20 No.1928
Why were the Corinthians such dicks?
>>2332 I wonder if Boniface knew that his single swing of an ax would have paganoids seething nearly 1500 years later still.
>>2347 The man probably hoped that once he put paid to the pagans, no one would be deluded enough to admire them.
The truth is that the only real pagans out there are the Hindus, the hardcore Buddhists, and the most isolated savages. Everyone else is a disgruntled Protestant with a chip on their shoulder.
>>2347 I think Pagans and Christians can get along. No need for in fighting >>2352 Probably
>>2422 t.salty atheist
>>2330 >religions which were already long-tottering and failing to provide for their adherents They were not. >Christmas made out as that dreadful Saturnalia meme when it began as the Feast of Steven the Martyr It was not. >the custom of official birthdays before Christians do not celebrate birthdays.
>>2423 Yes, I do not think Jesus exists. That alone does not make me an atheist.
>>2389 You clearly did not research the subject well. There are numerous local Indo-European traditions preserved. What you are saying is a classical Christian propaganda, i.e. diminishing the importance of gods by naming them demons, superstitions, etc. You cannot doubt one's faith, you can't look inside of each person's mind.
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>>2409 >I think Pagans and Christians can get along. No need for in fighting There's nothing to infight over because you're not even within the same group or universe that Christians are in. You pretend to worship demons or other spirits, knowingly or unknowingly, and so are diametrically opposed to Christianity, and your lot online basically only exists because of a hatred of Christianity, spewing blasphemy day in and day out. I wish you the best, but want nothing to do with polytheists and their ilk. Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness?
>You pretend to worship demons or other spirits >lot online basically only exists because of a hatred of Christianity This trick is getting old, don't you think? You are saying this because Christianity does not allow for considering other opinions viable. My belief in Odin is no less true than your belief in that madman with a creepy face. It is also can be said that your lot exists only because of a hatred of the modern secular world.
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>>2436 >My belief in Odin is no less true than your belief in that madman with a creepy face There's no salvation in the false gods who did not create the heaven and the earth. You pretend to follow a religion that was preserved solely through the works of Christian monks.
>>2439 You act like a broken record. There is nothing to be saved from. My gods do not try to blackmail me into submissive and pathetic life. >pretend You can't prove that. >preserved Paganism is dynamic. Knowledge about gods was constantly being lost and discovered again. There is no strict canon. As long as we know at least something, it's already quite good.
>>2442 >My gods do not try to blackmail me into submissive and pathetic life. Zero knowledge about Christianity, as usual. >Paganism is dynamic. Knowledge about gods was constantly being lost and discovered again. There is no strict canon. As long as we know at least something, it's already quite good. You have no standards to judge anything by then. It's just relativism and LARPing.
>>2443 Standards consist of artefacts, oral or written accounts, and what little has remained in Christian works criticising pagans. >relativism Yes. Every god is relative to geography, functions, cities, etc. There is nothing wrong with it. >LARPing Like I said, you can't prove that. If anything, gods seem more likely to exist, since they are varies aspects of nature. While Judeo-Christians present only one God, which they can't even define.
>>2445 >Yes. Every god is relative to geography, functions, cities, etc. There is nothing wrong with it. So you have no standards of truth, ethics, liturgical worship, scriptural canons, etc. As I expected. >If anything, gods seem more likely to exist, since they are varies aspects of nature. While Judeo-Christians present only one God You laughably think that God is equivalent to a so-called 'god', when this is in fact a defect of the English language that these two things are identified with the same term. You're creating a category error. The Holy Trinity, the eternal Source of all reality, three hypostases in one divine essence, are in no way equivalent to a pagan 'god', which are beings that exist within the very order created by God, and which are born in time, have parents, can be killed in their capacities as 'gods' , etc.
>>2445 The pagan gods died when the Roman emperors declared themselves their equals.
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>>2445 > Judeo-Christians
>>2447 >So you have no standards of truth, ethics, liturgical worship, scriptural canons, etc. As I expected. Yes, only Abrahamists have daddy issues. >are beings that exist within the very order created by God Not really. >can be killed in their capacities as 'gods' By other gods, perhaps. >>2450 Yes, sometimes individuals are proclaimed to be daimones in Greek religion or kami in Japanese one. I don't really see how it kills gods, though.
>>2459 >sometimes individuals are proclaimed to be daimones in Greek religion or kami in Japanese one Pagans are a joke, imagine worshiping some government official as a deity. It's literally cucking yourself to the state
>>2461 The same happens in Christianity. Monarchs have the right to exercise control because it is God who gave them this right. People are declared to be saint as well. >It's literally cucking yourself to the state It's called loyalty, not 'cucking'.
>>2463 >God who gave them this right. And that's the big difference. It was by God, not of their own right. For emperors that declared themselves to be gods, it was under their own right, and enforced by pain of death. An atom bomb has more destructive capacity than Zeus ever wielded. Man has overthrown the course of nature, we cannot go back.
>>2463 >God who gave them this right. So you admit it's completely different than being some sort of power-crazed emperor who declares himself to literally be a pagan god?
>>2466 >>2469 >It was by God, not of their own right According to... some Papists. Lmao. Divine rulers are a sign of an empire. Republic was better and had seen less instability. >An atom bomb has more destructive capacity than Zeus ever wielded This is a huge mistake. Gods are not venerated as persons. This explosion is a god. The god of war is a war itself. Gods are not patrons of anything. Pagans do not pray to sculptures or other material objects. They are used as incentives for religious activity. Gods appearing in poems are used as literary techniques. As long as anything exists, there are gods somewhere.
>>2425 >Christians do not celebrate birthdays Gooood grant you maaaaany years, Goooood grant you maaaaany years... >were not Then why was it so easy for Origen to talk all those smart old whitebeards of Greece into embracing the new Faith? >was not Au contraire, mon frere. https://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v Calculating Christmas > The idea that the date was taken from the pagans goes back to two scholars from the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries. Paul Ernst Jablonski, a German Protestant, wished to show that the celebration of Christ’s birth on December 25th was one of the many “paganizations” of Christianity that the Church of the fourth century embraced, as one of many “degenerations” that transformed pure apostolic Christianity into Catholicism. Dom Jean Hardouin, a Benedictine monk, tried to show that the Catholic Church adopted pagan festivals for Christian purposes without paganizing the gospel. >In the Julian calendar, created in 45 B.C. under Julius Caesar, the winter solstice fell on December 25th, and it therefore seemed obvious to Jablonski and Hardouin that the day must have had a pagan significance before it had a Christian one. But in fact, the date had no religious significance in the Roman pagan festal calendar before Aurelian’s time, nor did the cult of the sun play a prominent role in Rome before him. >There were two temples of the sun in Rome, one of which (maintained by the clan into which Aurelian was born or adopted) celebrated its dedication festival on August 9th, the other of which celebrated its dedication festival on August 28th. But both of these cults fell into neglect in the second century, when eastern cults of the sun, such as Mithraism, began to win a following in Rome. And in any case, none of these cults, old or new, had festivals associated with solstices or equinoxes. >As things actually happened, Aurelian, who ruled from 270 until his assassination in 275, was hostile to Christianity and appears to have promoted the establishment of the festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Sun” as a device to unify the various pagan cults of the Roman Empire around a commemoration of the annual “rebirth” of the sun. He led an empire that appeared to be collapsing in the face of internal unrest, rebellions in the provinces, economic decay, and repeated attacks from German tribes to the north and the Persian Empire to the east. >In creating the new feast, he intended the beginning of the lengthening of the daylight, and the arresting of the lengthening of darkness, on December 25th to be a symbol of the hoped-for “rebirth,” or perpetual rejuvenation, of the Roman Empire, resulting from the maintenance of the worship of the gods whose tutelage (the Romans thought) had brought Rome to greatness and world-rule. If it co-opted the Christian celebration, so much the better.
>>2470 >Gods are not venerated as persons. This explosion is a god. The god of war is a war itself. Yeah, real pagans didn’t believe this nonsense. This is actually sillier than what real pagans actually believed. I can understand someone believing that the sun moves across the sky because it is a god, or that someone’s house got hit by lighting and they conclude that some god in the clouds was mad at them for not sacrificing to them properly, but to give cute little names arbitrarily to different phenomena as a sort of poetic name is really embarrassing and silly. “Duuude, war is based! It’s a god!” This is a modern cope. Pagans literally had oracles which they believed gods spoke through, they held animal sacrifices to those gods, worshiped images of their gods in temples, used charms and amulets to ward off evil spirits, and sought the will of the gods in divination, haruspicy, and all sorts of other practices. You are an atheist who thinks he’s cool because he poetically calls a rumble of thunder a deity. This is what happens when you reject Christ lol
>>2485 You completely missed my point and your only knowledge of any pagan tradition consists of Facebook memes. This is what happens when you let that Jewish cancer spread in the brain. >You are an atheist You are a broken record.
>>2486 Atheists don't get access to the level up menu or tech trees in game, they get stuck without abilities like reality manipulate or manifest intent
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>>2486 Interesting how you refused to answer >>2473 , but answered >>2485 and his easy taunt. Aurelian was a salty fool, and Diocletian even worse. Though at least Diocletian admitted his failure with some grace.
>>2470 >Gods are not venerated as persons See the emperor of Japan, or the cult of John Frum.
>>2486 >You are a broken record. It's the truth. You are an atheist. One, because you reject the only true God, i.e. the Holy Trinity, and because you also seem to reject the actual entities that pagans worshiped, i.e. their so-called 'gods', which from all evidence available were believed to be actual personal beings associated with aspects of nature and other aspects of human life. I've read Greco-Roman primary sources, I've read books on Japanese religion, Vedic religion and other religions. All evidence points to the exact facts that I say in my post. You don't have any rebuttals, just typical /pol/ brain-rot about 'muh Jewish cancer'. Their exist millions of real pagans in this world today, who worship 'gods' in places like India, Nepal, the Buddhist world, followers of Chinese folk religions, voodoo practitioners in Haiti, followers of Santeria, the traditions of the Gypsies, New Age weirdos who say that space aliens are benevolent spiritual beings, etc. The list goes on. This is what authentic paganism looks like. They're actually less ridiculous than you, because they are actually serious about what they believe and think they are worshiping real entities rather than being some rootless Western physicalist who says nonsense like "This explosion is a god". It's meaningless nonsense.
>>2628 Actually, anon, I vaguely remember something about the Greek philosophers turning against the Olympians long before the days of Origen. There was at least one from Crimea who even wrote a critique of Zeus. Do we have any prominent names from that list?
>>2672 I'm not sure of the one you're talking about, but the philosopher Euhemurus from Sicily in 250 BC thought that the Greek gods were kings that had their lives' stories exaggerated over time.
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>>2672 I'm sure you're right. It doesn't really harm my critique though. We can point to individual figures and philosophers among the educated elite of pagan societies that were more or less critical of aspects of the popular pagan religion, which pretty much aligns with what I said here: >>2628. I have read dialogues such as Cicero's 'On The Nature of the Gods' which gives a good survey of the diverse views held by pagans in pre-Christian Europe. They oftentimes mock the crude and vulgar myths, and recognize them to be immoral. They make it quite clear that the common folk literally believe this nonsense though. Over time we see a trend in pagan religion that attempts to allegorize and explain away the actions of the so-called 'gods'. They recognize, due to the law written on their hearts, that these stories are immoral. So they attempted to cope with the material they had on hand in order to soothe their conscience. Along with this we see many alternative conceptions of the gods such as that of the Epicureans, where the gods lived in Intermundia region, immortal and in tranquility. The Stoics believed in a sort of pantheistic materialism, identifying God with Zeus. Stoic figures such as Marcus Aurelius juggle between gods and God with little concern it seems. We can see all sorts of baseless speculation like this in the philosophical schools, while the popular religion trudged on as normal, worshiping idols, animals, demons and everything else under the sun. According to the most common interpretation of Genesis 6, i.e. the idea that the fallen angels have come and forced themselves upon the daughters of men, this is where a good deal of the Greco-Roman myths concerning Zeus and other deities having intercourse and children with women comes from. Later generations, removed from the historical origin of such events, grew uncomfortable and attempted to allegorize it all away. As flawed as these men were, they were in some sense participating in true knowledge of God, as early apologists such as St. Justin Martyr said in his Apology. And as the other anon mentions, we can certainly find a few examples of atheists and those who attempted to say that the gods didn't really exist. But these people are notable and known today precisely because they were novel and unorthodox in their own day. This is like when people point at Hindus and say that they are some sort of super profound fount of wisdom for humanity, when we can also find stories from the last few years doing human sacrifice in India.
>>2677 >They make it quite clear that the common folk literally believe this nonsense though The parts in Acts where they start worshipping the apostles are pretty funny and in agreement with this. The ancient world was well and truly deisidaimonesterous, as Paul put it to the assembly of Athens. I'm not sure however, if the present world is any different; people but call upon idols with new names.
>>2678 >I'm not sure however, if the present world is any different; people but call upon idols with new names. It’s definitely not. New idols have taken the place of the old ones. Humans worship by nature. Even the most seemingly atheistic states in history have turned their human leaders into idols. Lenin’s tomb is modeled after ziggurats.
>>2678 >>2679 I always found this interesting to think about. Why any creature, lets say some very intelligent ape. Why would they even come to the conclusion that sacrificing one of their own would cause rain to go away. "Something" clearly would have had to give it that notion that would cause any effect.
>>2682 Why indeed.
>>2682 Exactly, people don’t come up with these ideas ex nihilo. Usually they came from a few people who have been explicitly *told* by something to do this, and it escalates from there, as seen here: >>2173
>>2690 Chesterton opined that the demons might've done some favors exactly and precisely for just a little blood. For even greater hideousness, they implied that they would do so much more. And thus, at the back of the Aztec's mind there was surely a small voice whispering that it was wrong to tear out a man's heart and cover a great ziggurat with his blood. Innocent savages they were not.
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>>2447 >that picture Pagan Europe also practiced Sparagmos, the act of ripping people and animals apart limb from limb for the Greek god Dionysus. They also practiced incest, bestiality and general child abandonment and mistreatment. Practically every country in Europe practiced all of the above mentioned before it became Christian. More on this: One of the reason's Roman Coliseums got closed down was because children were active in fights and in the slaughter. >>2679 Now this I didn't know about. Pretty interesting stuff. >Even the most seemingly atheistic states in history have turned their human leaders into idols. In old USSR days, portraits of party leaders were literally put on people's houses around all Eastern Bloc territories. You're not wrong
>>2730 >In old USSR days, portraits of party leaders were literally put on people's houses around all Eastern Bloc territories. Interesting, this definitely seems like a targeted attack against traditional Christian iconography.
>>2730 And yet the Roman's hated devil-worshipping Carthage more than any other foe. Supernatural things seemed to happen around the Second Punic War, especially when the Given Of Baal made his invasion of Italy.
>Then there is the fourth suggestion that there was something of the Semitic secret society in the whole matter; that it was a new invasion of the nomad spirit shaking a kindlier and more comfortable paganism, its cities and its household gods; whereby the jealous monotheistic races could after all establish their jealous God. >And Mahomet shall answer out of the whirlwind, the red whirlwind of the desert, Who ever served the jealousy of God as I did or left him more lonely in the sky? Who ever paid more honour to Moses and Abraham or won more victories over idols and the images of paganism? And what was this thing that thrust me back with the energy of a thing alive; whose fanaticism could drive me from Sicily and tear up my deep roots out of the rock of Spain? What faith was theirs who thronged in thousands of every class a country crying out that my ruin was the will of God; and what hurled great Godfrey as from a catapult over the wall of Jerusalem; and what brought great Sobieski like a thunderbolt to the gates of Vienna? I think there was more than you fancy in the religion that has so matched itself with mine."
>>2735 Lots of Roman pagans were still degenerates and idol-worshipers. The fact that one can point to Romans hating Carthaginians who sacrificed infants to demons isn't a very high bar to be able to reach, they have the natural law written on their hearts as Paul wrote, after all.
>>2782 True enough, and Chesterton does note that. However, I cannot be alone in believing that to be the moment when God chose the Romans to be the pagans Christianity would spread under and then conquer.
Does anyone have a good article or journal about the hideous amount of abortion that went on in the Roman Empire and the ancient world as a whole?
>>2735 One needs to differentiate ages of Rome - religion-wise, they started out with laws of Numa, which instituted flour and wine as sacrifice, for example. No giant-scale animal sacrifice, etc. They also, in the earlier days, were careful farmers and businessmen. You even had consuls get called back while literally plowing their cabbage fields, for example. Later Rome was a very, very different place. The degeneracy started creeping in when they got into contact with Carthage, took hold after it was destroyed, and the conquest of Greece really cemented it as the societal standard, since they made the mistake of giving their children Greek teachers.
>>3007 I don't have an article about the abortion and infanticide directly but here is an article about their effects on the fertility rate of the pagan population of the Roman Empire in contrast to the Christian one: https://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/123665/sec_id/123665
>>3016 Good read. The parts about many people back then desiring childlessness are hauntingly familiar. That the Romans had DESIGNATED shitting channels in their streets was unexpectedly funny. Good reminder that as skilled Muh Baste Bromanz were, they had some serious shortcomings.

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